What are your thoughts on the Venus Project?

[ImprobableJoe]

I see you are somewhat playing Devil's advocate here. If I may ask; did you ever listen to what the people involved within the Movement and what Jacque Fresco talks about? Or did you just listen to the opposing side?

You don't get it, do you? I'm saying that you don't actually have a side. Besides the fact that those people are lying to you about the details... even if they weren't, you still don't have a side. You DO seem to have a bit of a cult... oh, excuse me, I mean "Movement". Your phasing makes it ambiguous.

Let me explain it to you in a way that maybe you can understand because it doesn't hit so close to your cherished belief in this "Movement":

When I was younger, I always wanted to be in a rock band. When I hit college, I found other guys who wanted to be in a band too, and we started hanging out. We did more than hang out, though... we gave our band a name. Then we made T-shirts, and hats, and bumper stickers. We started figuring out the sorts of places we could play out, like campus functions and afternoons in local college bars for free or next to it, just to get ourselves out there. The one thing we forgot in all of our excitement? Actually learning how to play music together. We were never an actual band, we just had a great idea for one.

That's what your "Movement" seems like to me... it isn't an ACTUAL movement, it is a bunch of ideas for having a movement with a decided lack of ideas on how to be one.

ETA: I saw your post on the "Down The Rabbit Hole" thread... and you reject that piece of garbage for the EXACT SAME REASONS that people reject "Zeitgeist." And unfortunately, you sound just like the people who defend that "DTRH" movie. That's my perspective, and maybe you should take a hard look at it.

 

[IamtheVOICE123]

You don't get it, do you? I'm saying that you don't actually have a side. Besides the fact that those people are lying to you about the details... even if they weren't, you still don't have a side. You DO seem to have a bit of a cult... oh, excuse me, I mean "Movement". Your phasing makes it ambiguous.

Let me explain it to you in a way that maybe you can understand because it doesn't hit so close to your cherished belief in this "Movement":

When I was younger, I always wanted to be in a rock band. When I hit college, I found other guys who wanted to be in a band too, and we started hanging out. We did more than hang out, though... we gave our band a name. Then we made T-shirts, and hats, and bumper stickers. We started figuring out the sorts of places we could play out, like campus functions and afternoons in local college bars for free or next to it, just to get ourselves out there. The one thing we forgot in all of our excitement? Actually learning how to play music together. We were never an actual band, we just had a great idea for one.

That's what your "Movement" seems like to me... it isn't an ACTUAL movement, it is a bunch of ideas for having a movement with a decided lack of ideas on how to be one.

ETA: I saw your post on the "Down The Rabbit Hole" thread... and you reject that piece of garbage for the EXACT SAME REASONS that people reject "Zeitgeist." And unfortunately, you sound just like the people who defend that "DTRH" movie. That's my perspective, and maybe you should take a hard look at it.

If that were the case then you would need to administer all Movement groups as cults, because they all started out this way. You're branding of The Zeitgeist Movement as a cult is a little es cue without branding every other Movement that started out in a similar fashion as cult as well.

The differences between The Movement and your rockband is because your little thing was not geared towards informing others and get each other working together to help create a better world for everyone. Your little thing was for fun; so it is hardly an actual comparison.

And no I don't reject the video, I just reject how they displayed it and Quantum Mechanics along with how science has discovered things. That is all. You can accept specific things within a video without rejecting the entire video. Also I do not see any comparison between the video and the Zeitgeist Movement. Please tell me what you see because I am lacking it.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

If that were the case then you would need to administer all Movement groups as cults, because they all started out this way. You're branding of The Zeitgeist Movement as a cult is a little es cue without branding every other Movement that started out in a similar fashion as cult as well.

Real movements have... well, movement! You've got standing still and looking for new converts, and nothing else.

The differences between The Movement and your rockband is because your little thing was not geared towards informing others and get each other working together to help create a better world for everyone. Your little thing was for fun; so it is hardly an actual comparison.

Actually, the point where the comparison breaks down is the fact that we were honest with ourselves, and stopped. We didn't lie to others and ourselves for decades, the way your "movement's" leaders have been doing for years and years.

And no I don't reject the video, I just reject how they displayed it and Quantum Mechanics along with how science has discovered things. That is all. You can accept specific things within a video without rejecting the entire video. Also I do not see any comparison between the video and the Zeitgeist Movement. Please tell me what you see because I am lacking it.

So, you accept multiple movies created by lying cultists, debunked by experts presenting facts, not to mention debunked by common sense. Yeah, you're lacking "it" alright!

Let me ask you... is there anything you DON'T believe? And, if so... why?

 

[IamtheVOICE123]

Real movements have... well, movement! You've got standing still and looking for new converts, and nothing else.

Movement's did the very same thing in the passed. The Black Rights Movement started out by educating people about the immorality of slavery and so forth. Then it moved into a Movement. Obviously you didn't see the end of Zeitgeist: Addendum, where they propose a series of boycotts to make the establishment realize that we are in control and not them.

Actually, the point where the comparison breaks down is the fact that we were honest with ourselves, and stopped. We didn't lie to others and ourselves for decades, the way your "movement's" leaders have been doing for years and years.

What are you talking about? It is merely proposing the adherint flaw in the free market society (which many people who actually understand it in a whole and not those just who read a bunch of books and never practice it fully acknowledge); and allow society to be guided by the scientific method to be able to use renewable resources such as solar, wind, geothermal, tidal, and wave energy. Their are other non-profit organizations which are working on the proposed Mag-Lev Train. Scientists and companies are actively working together for this, how can you say we aren't doing anything? The Zeitgeist Movement is only a way in how to inform the public of what is going on in the world in regards to technology.

So, you accept multiple movies created by lying cultists, debunked by experts presenting facts, not to mention debunked by common sense. Yeah, you're lacking "it" alright!

Let me ask you... is there anything you DON'T believe? And, if so... why?

You are putting words in my mouth. I never said that, I said that I listen to both sides of the argument, if one has more facts than the other, or they both have an incredible amount of evidence both equally presenting their facts. You have to look out words to third party people to see who supports what and so forth. Anyone can claim to be an expert in today's society and present facts which are false. In all honesty; many people reject the idea and label Zeitgeist as a cult movement.

I have studied the psychology of many cults, what they do, what they use to get their tactics across and so forth. None of them ever propose the idea of listening to both sides and weighing the evidence for themselves. None of them have ever try to inform people about the state of technology while telling people to research it themselves if they have any doubts.

Listening to an opposing argument is one thing, but researching what both have to say is another.

Although I will say that you seem to be trying to instigate some kind of anger out of me (only just a thought and pure speculation; don't take it serious.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I'm close to going to bed (jury duty SUCKS!) but I just want to point out how wrong it sounds to me to say that you are going to run a society by the "scientific method." It is like saying that you're going to run the economy with the Dewey Decimal System.

 

[IamtheVOICE123]

I'm close to going to bed (jury duty SUCKS!) but I just want to point out how wrong it sounds to me to say that you are going to run a society by the "scientific method." It is like saying that you're going to run the economy with the Dewey Decimal System.

Ah I see; well in truth every single form of society implimented is a form of implimenting the scientific method. Fascism, Democracy, Free Market, Monetary Based System and Communism went forth in trying to implement a new society for greater sustainability. This form of society is simply to allow people to have the basic needs for survival. It is a new form of society that utilizes what others say their way is better.

In truth their are dangers that I see; such as the whole "Ends justify the means" deal. But however if it does come to that; you will see me being the first to leave the movement.

 

[irmerk]

I just came up with a good idea for Joe. First, read your own quotes:

You explained your idea of what appears to be a totalitarian reprogramming of people, but you didn't really make clear how it isn't a crime against humanity.

OK, here's my issue: it is a bunch of nice ideas, based in part on a bunch of outright lies, half truths, and misinterpretations of reality, that lead absolutely nowhere as evidenced by the fact that the founders of this non-movement have achieved nothing except the equivalent of a giant pot-fueled bullshit session.

Here's how it looks from the outside:

1) Capitalism is evil.
2) Money is bad.
3) We should get rid of money!
4-98) Frantic handwaving, anger at critics, requests for cash, and dishonest videos on the internet. Absolutely ZERO action towards the stated goal, besides marketing.
99) A miracle happens!
100) We get a better society!

Yeah, but we need to actually work, not spread lies and try to subvert the current system without anything even remotely prepared to take its place.

Besides the fact that those people are lying to you about the details... even if they weren't, you still don't have a side. You DO seem to have a bit of a cult... oh, excuse me, I mean "Movement". Your phasing makes it ambiguous.

Real movements have... well, movement! You've got standing still and looking for new converts, and nothing else.

So, you accept multiple movies created by lying cultists, debunked by experts presenting facts, not to mention debunked by common sense. Yeah, you're lacking "it" alright!

... but I just want to point out how wrong it sounds to me to say that you are going to run a society by the "scientific method." It is like saying that you're going to run the economy with the Dewey Decimal System.

Now, explain, because no one has a fucking clue how you came to these conclusions or what any of this shit means. Do you know why? Because you did not explain yourself. A few hints as you go along: Try, after writing your draft, asking yourself if your reply answers, "How?" or "Why?" These sort of things are the questions I tend to ask when I read your posts.

 

[Trigshot]

The only portion of the Zeitgeist movies I truly enjoyed were the sections on religion, and on the economy. Some of the information included is fictitious, and the movie is too provocative. In truth, every idea from the Venus Project so far has been somewhat poor. The only idea I truly agree with is a resource driven economy without fractional reserve banking. Fractional reserve is one of the worst causes of inflation in history. If you're looking for a video that will truly explain what's wrong with the economy, watch this series:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVkFb26u9g8

 

[IamtheVOICE123]

The only portion of the Zeitgeist movies I truly enjoyed were the sections on religion, and on the economy. Some of the information included is fictitious, and the movie is too provocative. In truth, every idea from the Venus Project so far has been somewhat poor. The only idea I truly agree with is a resource driven economy without fractional reserve banking. Fractional reserve is one of the worst causes of inflation in history. If you're looking for a video that will truly explain what's wrong with the economy, watch this series:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVkFb26u9g8

Ah yes; Zeitgeist pretty much nailed it in the first part of Addendum. But may I ask who were talking to you about the Venus Project and what your questions are? I believe I can answer them in a more detailed fashion if you wish.

 

[Trigshot]

Well, I thought the idea of a society where people do not have to work, and everything is automated, is not currently possible with our given level of technology. Medical procedures take loads of skill to prefect and many other fields of work cannot be fully automated. Further, there must be people to maintain the machinery as well. The idea that people share the productions of automated factories is very borderline communism, and we see how that turned out.

Nevertheless, I do agree that an overabundance of production of basic survival resources cannot possibly be a bad thing. Food, water, shelter, clothing, and basic medical services should all be provided at little or no cost, to anyone willing to accept a job. This simple job would be to help produce the abundance of resources that feeds, shelters, and provides medical services to the homeless and needy.

Basically, simply explained, you create a program that provides jobs and teaches the homeless how to provide for themselves. This simple program would likely drastically reduce unemployment, and drastically increase the GDP. Little does the government realize that if it puts money to such a program, it would recieve a large portion of the money in return, for the mass of homeless and unemployed would suddenly be required to pay taxes, which circle back around to improve the program. This cycle is beneficical to all sides, and would generally improve the economy.

 

[IamtheVOICE123]

Well, I thought the idea of a society where people do not have to work, and everything is automated, is not currently possible with our given level of technology. Medical procedures take loads of skill to prefect and many other fields of work cannot be fully automated. Further, there must be people to maintain the machinery as well. The idea that people share the productions of automated factories is very borderline communism, and we see how that turned out.

Nevertheless, I do agree that an overabundance of production of basic survival resources cannot possibly be a bad thing. Food, water, shelter, clothing, and basic medical services should all be provided at little or no cost, to anyone willing to accept a job. This simple job would be to help produce the abundance of resources that feeds, shelters, and provides medical services to the homeless and needy.

Basically, simply explained, you create a program that provides jobs and teaches the homeless how to provide for themselves. This simple program would likely drastically reduce unemployment, and drastically increase the GDP. Little does the government realize that if it puts money to such a program, it would recieve a large portion of the money in return, for the mass of homeless and unemployed would suddenly be required to pay taxes, which circle back around to improve the program. This cycle is beneficical to all sides, and would generally improve the economy.

Ah yes; well you are correct. Which is why everything will go into phasing abilities. As far as maintaining the machines, people who maintain machinery have a passion to do those tasks like I have a passion to help anyone that I can with any technical computer problem that needs to help. Eventually however self repairing nano-bot technology (the government has already implimented such technology in their air plane fighters) will eventually take this over and even the possibility (this way in the future but it may be able to happen) for the technology to be able to create matter and objects from thin air.

To your next point of observation about medical procedures their are already tested machines that have been able to complete very complex medical procedures in this area. However people will be able to condone into such job training eventually for self medical reasons regardless. Basic Medical training should be something everyone should have, regardless if machines are there for us or not.

Now as far as the automated production factories; such things will be controlled by machines and will be produced based on the individual needs of the consumer. Let's say if a specific person wanted a 60 DLP wide screen HD 3D ready television. They would merely need to search for the particular one they would need, order it and it would be made or transported (depending if it available from the spot) to them via a machine transporting the device.

The entirety of the factories will be automated and put forth by people's need. And if you wish to create a new device you need to simply give the explanation for it and it will feed back weather it is possible based on resources, technology and your current idea. It may also help to give you better suggestions. After which you may be apart of the team that makes the device and thus you contribute to new technology. This way it is a true democracy (for lack of a better term).

 

[Trigshot]

The only flaw I find to this society is that it is still made up of humans. People in general cannot accept a sameness with the majority. Every person out there hates to be a conformist, as much as they think they aren't conforming. Basically, if a person wanted a nice TV, the person across the street will want a larger TV. And eventually it will snowball where everyone is playing a who's penis is bigger contest. In a free resource economy, there can be no room for that type of competition, unless there existed an infinite number of resources. Given our current situation, with a few modifications, capitalism can be a very viable economic system, just given the proper regulations.

For starters, absolutely ALL wages must scale identical to inflation. At the current moment, any time the value of the dollar drops, every person just got a pay cut, except for the company that ran the payroll.

Producing more than needed is nice, but its dangerous that such a society as the Venus Project may remove incentive, save for the intellectual minds. And then, when an intellectual has an idea, is it not rewarded? No, it is shared, so that everyone may benefit from one man's expense. While that is noble, to me it is by no means fair.

 

[IamtheVOICE123]

The only flaw I find to this society is that it is still made up of humans. People in general cannot accept a sameness with the majority. Every person out there hates to be a conformist, as much as they think they aren't conforming. Basically, if a person wanted a nice TV, the person across the street will want a larger TV. And eventually it will snowball where everyone is playing a who's penis is bigger contest. In a free resource economy, there can be no room for that type of competition, unless there existed an infinite number of resources. Given our current situation, with a few modifications, capitalism can be a very viable economic system, just given the proper regulations.

For starters, absolutely ALL wages must scale identical to inflation. At the current moment, any time the value of the dollar drops, every person just got a pay cut, except for the company that ran the payroll.

Producing more than needed is nice, but its dangerous that such a society as the Venus Project may remove incentive, save for the intellectual minds. And then, when an intellectual has an idea, is it not rewarded? No, it is shared, so that everyone may benefit from one man's expense. While that is noble, to me it is by no means fair.

That is a form of competition really and it would really depend on the person. In all honesty that is materialism, and materialism in such a society may very well be phased out (through a gradual process of education). People will still have the right to have taste and want beauty within their home, be it more nature or more technological or geared more towards entertainment that would be their choice. But I would really see no point in doing this whole "whos penis is bigger" in such a society and I cannot see it happening.

But I must object to money being a form of incentive. Money is a subjective form of incentive and will only give incentive if you subjectively give any real value towards it. If you view it as not having value; then it is worthless. You cannot stuff money in a car for fuel, you cannot eat money for sustainence nor can you gain warmth from money (and burning money only creates a limited amount of fire so you can count that out as a joke although feel free to add it :lol so by all accounts what is the use of money since it is all subjective?

I mean basically put this into perspective. You're on an island, cut off from society, you have no clean water, you have no resources or food but you have all this gold; what are you going to do?

Answer: You will die.

You see what I mean? People can have incentive without money. Artists paint because it is what they love to do. Singers do what they do because they love it. Actors do their job because they love to entertain. The same goes for hardware technicians, programmers, engineers and so forth. You don't need incentive to do these kinds of things because the incentive to do them is their, the reason is different sometimes.

A hardware designer may like to do his work cause it is something he himself has enjoyed. Another may do it because he loves making new hardware and always likes to come up with the possibility of doing better. Another one may do it because he sees the ability to create better technology than what was out there. The incentive we have is their.

Scientists don't do what they do because of money, they do what they do because it is their passion. You don't need money as a form of incentive because it is artificial and can be used for economic slavery.

 

[Distructica]

The venus prodject is yet another utopian visions in a sea of Utopian visions, it isn't any better thought out then say Bacon's "technology city", or plato's republic. Just like every other Utopian vision it is impossible to see through.

On top of that pay attention, I'm not sure I would want to live in a Utopia were deviants are "Re-educated"

 

[IamtheVOICE123]

The venus prodject is yet another utopian visions in a sea of Utopian visions, it isn't any better thought out then say Bacon's "technology city", or plato's republic. Just like every other Utopian vision it is impossible to see through.

On top of that pay attention, I'm not sure I would want to live in a Utopia were deviants are "Re-educated"

Ah I see, you must have been listening to Alex Jone's bullshit talk about the Venus Project. It was never proposed as a utopia and this is something that even Jacque Fresco has stated.

As far as the re-educated statement, you have to admit that our current mode of education throughout the world is really fucked. I mean they aren't preparing you for real life problems, or to fix a situation in real life time. Even History, Science, Geography and so forth are subjects where people are utterly failing and have no concept of it; even math as well. So I do think a re-education would be in order to help people deal with real life situations along helping them understand Math, Science and even History which the school systems of today fail to do.

I can understand why you see it is a Utopian society since everyone would have their needs met for basic things like food, cleaner water and air, shelter, medicine and so forth while providing everyone the things they would want for entertainment and travel. This seems like a Utopia but in reality it will eventually happen one way or another; the only question is will it be in terms where we will all still be reliant on money where everyone will be on welfare, or will it be where we all eventually see that money is absolutely nothing and all of it is of subjective value.

 

[Trigshot]

I suppose you do have a good point with the incentive of money. As for the competition, I agree the concept could work, IF every member of the society accepts and follows an intelligent, logical way of thinking. The current problem is that the majority of the populace is now ingrained with materialism and gullibility. People are open to believing whatever they want to believe, be it any ludicrous idea. Such ignorance may not be accepted in such a utopia as the Venus Project. The people must be intelligent enough to understand the consequences of their actions, and stave off greed and jealousy. If the people can fully do that, then the society will work.

Nevertheless, I am still very skeptical due to the simple nature of humanity. I believe such a feat would be difficult to accomplish.

 

[IamtheVOICE123]

I suppose you do have a good point with the incentive of money. As for the competition, I agree the concept could work, IF every member of the society accepts and follows an intelligent, logical way of thinking. The current problem is that the majority of the populace is now ingrained with materialism and gullibility. People are open to believing whatever they want to believe, be it any ludicrous idea. Such ignorance may not be accepted in such a utopia as the Venus Project. The people must be intelligent enough to understand the consequences of their actions, and stave off greed and jealousy. If the people can fully do that, then the society will work.

Nevertheless, I am still very skeptical due to the simple nature of humanity. I believe such a feat would be difficult to accomplish.

Yes you are right, but that is why the change of the environment eventually changes the behavior of people. Greed, jealousy, bigotry, racism, sexism are not of human nature; these are developed things by the people we interact with and our environment.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I suppose you do have a good point with the incentive of money. As for the competition, I agree the concept could work, IF every member of the society accepts and follows an intelligent, logical way of thinking. The current problem is that the majority of the populace is now ingrained with materialism and gullibility. People are open to believing whatever they want to believe, be it any ludicrous idea. Such ignorance may not be accepted in such a utopia as the Venus Project. The people must be intelligent enough to understand the consequences of their actions, and stave off greed and jealousy. If the people can fully do that, then the society will work.

Nevertheless, I am still very skeptical due to the simple nature of humanity. I believe such a feat would be difficult to accomplish.

The problem is that the step from here to there requires a miraculous change in basic human nature that can't happen by making fancy websites with cool pictures out of a science fiction movie. And ironically, the "Venus Project" is an example of materialism and gullibility. After all, what is this other than a "something for nothing" scam?

 

[IamtheVOICE123]

The problem is that the step from here to there requires a miraculous change in basic human nature that can't happen by making fancy websites with cool pictures out of a science fiction movie. And ironically, the "Venus Project" is an example of materialism and gullibility. After all, what is this other than a "something for nothing" scam?

Finally away from the cult remark eh? Well thats a good change. And yes you are right, that is the biggest problem. However I believe people are starting to come to terms with this on their own (I know I did) and this will help if given information about human behavior vs. human nature. Behavior is often confused with human nature like saying greed is natural when it isn't.

However the Venus Project isn't an example of materialism as it uses the earth's resources to help fuel the environment and it does not rob humans of their ability to be creative and to be individuals. As far as your something out of nothing comment, please elaborate cause I do not understand.

 

[Trigshot]

I really dislike arguing against the Venus Project, because I admire its intentions. Unfortunately, I do believe that in order for a plan of this magnitude to succeed, it must have massive amounts of agreement and acceptance, it must be heavily funded, and it will take large amounts of time to complete and progress. The current technology that we have does permit most of what we would need for the Venus project, but the amount of brainpower and resources needed simply to get the automation off the ground is overwhelming.

Remember, that in order for something to become a common item, it must be able to be produced on a large scale, and it must be somewhat cheap. These obstacles are not minute, they are very formidable, and will likely take a lengthy amount of time to complete, assuming people have even accepted and supported the idea in the first place.

I think public opinion of it may waver, because of the similarities it shares with communism. It may be difficult to curb this notion, and show how the Venus Project can work, and how it is handling the flaws that were apparent in the communist society.