What are your thoughts on the Venus Project?

[IamtheVOICE123]

What if they do hurt themselves and are perfectly fine with it? What if in a public setting they are perfectly normal? Is it morally right for us to mentally reform them? What if they don't want to be mentally reformed? They have committed no crime whatsoever and society has not been harmed in any sort of way.

Ah yes, that is a question that was answered before in one way or another. And well, masochistic nature is very brutal. It would depend on the state of the situation. Such as if their friends or family is concerned with their well being. Or if a loved one feels this is concerning towards them. In any such case, people who commit self mutilation are not mentally well in the first place especially if they enjoy such behavior. It is also a risk of allowing such behavior to go into the society; which would eventually create extrovert mutilation (the mutilation of others) for self gratification. Sometimes people like this have to be reformed because it may very well lead to the steps of being a sociopaths murderer.

Sometimes it just takes a little scaring of the person to show them what they are doing. Like recording their self mutilation on camera to show them. This is a common tactic used to get people out of their state of thought when helping them realize what they are doing. This has also been useful for helping those get out of their domesticated violence if they are not originall violent people.

 

[IamtheVOICE123]

Clearly you didn't pay one tiny bit of attention to what I posted. Here, let me try again. WHAT HAS YOUR CULT LEADER EVER DONE?

I would like to refrain from the cult leader titling as it is somewhat demeaning of who he is. But in all honesty, Jacque Fresco and Peter Joseph are not cult leaders; they are merely people with strange ideas that will not become accepted till years later. However this was the same problem with Galileo Galilei. Now then to answer your question, he has given us somewhat of an awareness (by us I am referring to the rest of the Zeitgeist Movement; I already knew most of this information ahead of time) towards the current state of technology and the corruption within the monetary based system and very corrupt mechanism within the Free Market philosophy. He also has given us one of the first steps to allowing people to be able to finally see that if we do not band together in an attempt to make the world a better place instead of fighting (again I am not referring to myself) that our species as a whole will be doomed for extinction.

Most people did not realize this; and I believe myself is that Peter has probably given everyone a way for others that have had the similar goal and mindset to band together for a common goal. I do not think the idea of helping to rid the world of poverty, war, bigotry, and hate is cultist ideas; idealistic maybe but not cultist ideas. Also in all honesty; I do not see anything wrong with trying to get people to come together despite their religious, philosophical and even cultural differences to help make a better world for everyone. It's idealistic and maybe a hippie idea yes, but it's no where near a cult idea.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I would like to refrain from the cult leader titling as it is somewhat demeaning of who he is. But in all honesty, Jacque Fresco and Peter Joseph are not cult leaders; they are merely people with strange ideas that will not become accepted till years later. However this was the same problem with Galileo Galilei.

Wow, you don't even realize how funny you are, do you? You just nailed the #1 Internet Crackpot identifier. Congrats!

Now then to answer your question, he has given us somewhat of an awareness (by us I am referring to the rest of the Zeitgeist Movement; I already knew most of this information ahead of time) towards the current state of technology and the corruption within the monetary based system and very corrupt mechanism within the Free Market philosophy. He also has given us one of the first steps to allowing people to be able to finally see that if we do not band together in an attempt to make the world a better place instead of fighting (again I am not referring to myself) that our species as a whole will be doomed for extinction.

Most people did not realize this; and I believe myself is that Peter has probably given everyone a way for others that have had the similar goal and mindset to band together for a common goal. I do not think the idea of helping to rid the world of poverty, war, bigotry, and hate is cultist ideas; idealistic maybe but not cultist ideas. Also in all honesty; I do not see anything wrong with trying to get people to come together despite their religious, philosophical and even cultural differences to help make a better world for everyone. It's idealistic and maybe a hippie idea yes, but it's no where near a cult idea.

So, IOW, he has done absolutely nothing but make videos full of lies and half truths, and sell books and DVDs? Wow, that's so inspiring! :roll:

 

[richi1173]

Ah yes, that is a question that was answered before in one way or another. And well, masochistic nature is very brutal. It would depend on the state of the situation. Such as if their friends or family is concerned with their well being. Or if a loved one feels this is concerning towards them. In any such case, people who commit self mutilation are not mentally well in the first place especially if they enjoy such behavior. It is also a risk of allowing such behavior to go into the society; which would eventually create extrovert mutilation (the mutilation of others) for self gratification. Sometimes people like this have to be reformed because it may very well lead to the steps of being a sociopaths murderer.

Sometimes it just takes a little scaring of the person to show them what they are doing. Like recording their self mutilation on camera to show them. This is a common tactic used to get people out of their state of thought when helping them realize what they are doing. This has also been useful for helping those get out of their domesticated violence if they are not originall violent people.

Your society sounds awful and motivated by massive xenophobia. The person has not done anything wrong and keeps the matter private, yet you are saying just because the majority does not agree with the behavior it should be stamped out on the basis of future actions?

Come on, where did the right to liberty go? Where is the mutual respect?

 

[IamtheVOICE123]

Wow, you don't even realize how funny you are, do you? You just nailed the #1 Internet Crackpot identifier. Congrats!

I am not entirely to sure of what you mean?

So, IOW, he has done absolutely nothing but make videos full of lies and half truths, and sell books and DVDs? Wow, that's so inspiring! :roll:

Um... I'm not sure what you are talking about. Zeitgeist was made as a free non-profit activist documentary as was Zeitgeist: Addendum. Peter is hardly making anything off of the movies. As for Jacque Fresco, do you honestly expect him to fund his project with nothing by the blood and sweat of himself and the others that are helping him? In a monetary based society he has to get funding somehow. And at any such case, their are numerous people around the world that view Jacque Fresco in the same way that the Scientific community viewed Albert Einstein. A little weird at first; but then genius later. So I am not sure what you are getting at.

 

[irmerk]

Wow, you don't even realize how funny you are, do you? You just nailed the #1 Internet Crackpot identifier. Congrats!

I have pretty much seen enough to finally address this from you. Try explaining things. You cannot just say someone is a cult leader and expect that to be enough. Just the same, you cannot just say IamtheVOICE123 is a internet crackpot and expect that be enough; what does that mean, why is he one, etc? I am not saying I always disagree or ever agree, but you more and more frequently throw out accusations or opinions with absolutely no backing.

So, IOW, he has done absolutely nothing but make videos full of lies and half truths, and sell books and DVDs? Wow, that's so inspiring! :roll:

From here:

Q. What is The Venus Project?

A. Very Briefly, The Venus Project is an organization that proposes a feasible plan of action for social change; one that works toward a peaceful and sustainable global civilization. It outlines an alternative to strive toward where human rights are not only paper proclamations but also a way of life.

So, like what has been said, he has proposed a plan for change. I do not think anyone implied he had done anything more, and saying that is not enough, again, requires backing (You cannot just say that's not enough or some shit and leave it at that).

Your society sounds awful and motivated by massive xenophobia. The person has not done anything wrong and keeps the matter private, yet you are saying just because the majority does not agree with the behavior it should be stamped out on the basis of future actions?

Come on, where did the right to liberty go? Where is the mutual respect?

I cannot completely follow you here. Go back to the beginning of the thread and read that this society will be based off of the scientific method, not xenophobia.

 

[IamtheVOICE123]

Your society sounds awful and motivated by massive xenophobia. The person has not done anything wrong and keeps the matter private, yet you are saying just because the majority does not agree with the behavior it should be stamped out on the basis of future actions?

Come on, where did the right to liberty go? Where is the mutual respect?

Psychology takes basis of steps to identify who will become what and how it all begins. Sociopath that love to cause and inflict pain onto others almost always start out with either self inflicting the pain onto yourself; or through thoughts if inflicting pain onto oneself. This eventually causes people to become sociopath that merely kill for the entertainment of so. This is not pure speculation; this is widely accepted among the psychological community. You may not agree with it; but let me put it into perspective. If your loved one was committing self mutilation simply because of enjoyment; would you not want her to have mental help and mental reform? It may seem cold and heartless, but this is always the case for those that do not understand the psychological trait.

However the mental reform will not be brutal like you might think. It is merely viewing and discovering the root of such behavior and then remove the cause to stop the behavior from continuing. People who commit self mutilation are usually put into mental institutions anyways within our current system and are drugged constantly to sedate their specific desire for it.

Our way of reform is not through drugs, but merely through psychological evaluation of the root cause and removing the root cause. Now then, if the person does need medication for it, we will always make sure of the person is alright with the medication to take it, if they do not wish to take the medication then it will not be forced. But people will continue to keep an eye in the person to make sure their introvert mutilation does not take the steps to extrovert mutilation.

 

[richi1173]

Psychology takes basis of steps to identify who will become what and how it all begins. Sociopath that love to cause and inflict pain onto others almost always start out with either self inflicting the pain onto yourself; or through thoughts if inflicting pain onto oneself. This eventually causes people to become sociopath that merely kill for the entertainment of so. This is not pure speculation; this is widely accepted among the psychological community. You may not agree with it; but let me put it into perspective. If your loved one was committing self mutilation simply because of enjoyment; would you not want her to have mental help and mental reform? It may seem cold and heartless, but this is always the case for those that do not understand the psychological trait.

However the mental reform will not be brutal like you might think. It is merely viewing and discovering the root of such behavior and then remove the cause to stop the behavior from continuing. People who commit self mutilation are usually put into mental institutions anyways within our current system and are drugged constantly to sedate their specific desire for it.

Our way of reform is not through drugs, but merely through psychological evaluation of the root cause and removing the root cause. Now then, if the person does need medication for it, we will always make sure of the person is alright with the medication to take it, if they do not wish to take the medication then it will not be forced. But people will continue to keep an eye in the person to make sure their introvert mutilation does not take the steps to extrovert mutilation.

But those that little piece of evidence gives you the right to take the liberty away from that individual. Of course it does not.

Its like the movie Minority Report. A person has all the DNA markings of a serial killer, yet he has not shown any motivation or preparation for a massive killing spree. Yet the cops arrest him. Is it morally right? Of course its not.

A person who self-mutilates often does not equal a serial killer. We cannot base our societies decision on preliminary evidence.

For example, I can walk up to a cop and tell him I do heroin, yet he cannot arrest me because he has insufficient evidence against me.

Your basing your decisions on insubstantial evidence.

As for you question if my love one was committing that behavior. It is none of my business to mess with his private life. If I have enough evidence that he/she will do something awful or is about to commit suicide I will certainly call the authorities.

 

[IamtheVOICE123]

But those that little piece of evidence gives you the right to take the liberty away from that individual. Of course it does not.

Its like the movie Minority Report. A person has all the DNA markings of a serial killer, yet he has not shown any motivation or preparation for a massive killing spree. Yet the cops arrest him. Is it morally right? Of course its not.

A person who self-mutilates often does not equal a serial killer. We cannot base our societies decision on preliminary evidence.

For example, I can walk up to a cop and tell him I do heroin, yet he cannot arrest me because he has insufficient evidence against me.

Your basing your decisions on insubstantial evidence.

As for you question if my love one was committing that behavior. It is none of my business to mess with his private life. If I have enough evidence that he/she will do something awful or is about to commit suicide I will certainly call the authorities.

The differences between the Venus Project and the Minority report is that we will not imprison people indefinitely. And yes I do understand; but this isn't to say that they will, we are just merely weighing the possibility of what may happen vs. their psychological makeup. It will merely start out as a psychological evaulation of the person, their history and so forth. If their is no psychological danger; then the person will either have the choice to go home, or to stay for a psychological reformation.

It is all a matter of choice to the person. The only reason they would be reformed in the first place is if we have strong psychological evidence for the person to go from introvert mutilation to extrovert. This is far better than our current reform than just putting people on drugs to psychological sedate them 24/7.

I think I was able to clear this up finally. If there is anything else on the matter please ask.

 

[richi1173]

The only reason they would be reformed in the first place is if we have strong psychological evidence for the person to go from introvert mutilation to extrovert.

Here's where I have a problem. Psychological evidence alone is not enough to warrant an interment.

If a person, lets say, only shows self-mutilation, then its no problem in my eyes. But if a person constantly threatens to kill themselves or others, is constantly depressed, has passed history of being emotionally unstable, has the tools necessary to carry out those actions, AND they self mutilate, then it does merit an interment. It doesn't have to be those exact ones but you get the idea. The evidence has to be overwhelming.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

The differences between the Venus Project and the Minority report is that we will not imprison people indefinitely. And yes I do understand; but this isn't to say that they will, we are just merely weighing the possibility of what may happen vs. their psychological makeup. It will merely start out as a psychological evaulation of the person, their history and so forth. If their is no psychological danger; then the person will either have the choice to go home, or to stay for a psychological reformation.

It is all a matter of choice to the person. The only reason they would be reformed in the first place is if we have strong psychological evidence for the person to go from introvert mutilation to extrovert. This is far better than our current reform than just putting people on drugs to psychological sedate them 24/7.

I think I was able to clear this up finally. If there is anything else on the matter please ask.

You didn't really clear it up. You explained your idea of what appears to be a totalitarian reprogramming of people, but you didn't really make clear how it isn't a crime against humanity.

 

[IamtheVOICE123]

Here's where I have a problem. Psychological evidence alone is not enough to warrant an interment.

If a person, lets say, only shows self-mutilation, then its no problem in my eyes. But if a person constantly threatens to kill themselves or others, is constantly depressed, has passed history of being emotionally unstable, has the tools necessary to carry out those actions, AND they self mutilate, then it does merit an interment. It doesn't have to be those exact ones but you get the idea. The evidence has to be overwhelming.

:lol: I believe you just explained how it will work yourself. That is how the psychological evaluation will go.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Here's a link, just for fun:

http://www.conspiracyscience.com/articles/zeitgeist/


OK, here's my issue: it is a bunch of nice ideas, based in part on a bunch of outright lies, half truths, and misinterpretations of reality, that lead absolutely nowhere as evidenced by the fact that the founders of this non-movement have achieved nothing except the equivalent of a giant pot-fueled bullshit session.

Here's how it looks from the outside:

1) Capitalism is evil.
2) Money is bad.
3) We should get rid of money!
4-98) Frantic handwaving, anger at critics, requests for cash, and dishonest videos on the internet. Absolutely ZERO action towards the stated goal, besides marketing.
99) A miracle happens!
100) We get a better society!

The problem as I see it is that there is not only no way to get from #3 to #100, there's not even any pretense that there's any way to get there. All that is being done is promotion of the idea, as though if enough people watch a bunch of dishonest nonsense about how the government and economy work, the miracle will someday happen.

Why do you think Star Trek skipped a couple of centuries, to some point after the miracle happened?

 

[IamtheVOICE123]

You didn't really clear it up. You explained your idea of what appears to be a totalitarian reprogramming of people, but you didn't really make clear how it isn't a crime against humanity.

richi1173 answered what I would have stated before. The clear difference is; is that it will be based upon the persons choice for psychological reformation if there is not overwhelming evidence for it to be necessary. Psychology is a very touchy subject especially since most people do not understand it.

But also this part I found interesting....

You explained your idea of what appears to be a totalitarian reprogramming of people, but you didn't really make clear how it isn't a crime against humanity.

And how is not totalitarian to put people that mutilate themselves into a mental institution and drug them constantly to keep sedated not a crime against humanity? And how is it not a crime against humanity when a child's parents are forced to drug their kids at an early age simply because the teachers believe they have autism; just to make their jobs easier (I was a victim of such an act myself)?

 

[Ozymandyus]

I certainly agree about this. The closest thing to a game plan for these ideas always end up something like: do your best to destroy the current system in whatever way you can, and then come work for us to take over the shattered remains of society!

But that doesn't change the fact that I find the possibility of such a society very intriguing and worth working towards perhaps.

 

[IamtheVOICE123]

Here's a link, just for fun:

http://www.conspiracyscience.com/articles/zeitgeist/


OK, here's my issue: it is a bunch of nice ideas, based in part on a bunch of outright lies, half truths, and misinterpretations of reality, that lead absolutely nowhere as evidenced by the fact that the founders of this non-movement have achieved nothing except the equivalent of a giant pot-fueled bullshit session.

Here's how it looks from the outside:

1) Capitalism is evil.
2) Money is bad.
3) We should get rid of money!
4-98) Frantic handwaving, anger at critics, requests for cash, and dishonest videos on the internet. Absolutely ZERO action towards the stated goal, besides marketing.
99) A miracle happens!
100) We get a better society!

The problem as I see it is that there is not only no way to get from #3 to #100, there's not even any pretense that there's any way to get there. All that is being done is promotion of the idea, as though if enough people watch a bunch of dishonest nonsense about how the government and economy work, the miracle will someday happen.

Why do you think Star Trek skipped a couple of centuries, to some point after the miracle happened?

This is a common misconception for what The Venus Project is. Secondly, that is a evaulation I have looked towards before and I have every information it being either from an illinformed source, and someone who clearly did not live throughout most of the history. My own father can give some information on the 3rd part about the three wars as he lived during that time.

Now then let me go ahead and go through all of your points...

1. They never stated that capitalism was evil; it stated that the free market society has a built in mechanism for corruption, social stratification, planned obsolescence. A prime example of this is the common household lightbulb. It was proven by Thomas Edison that the lightbulb could be created to last 80 years with current technology or more with improved technology.

2. They never stated money is bad, money is a form subjective wealth and otherwise would only be worth anything unless we ourselves give it a subjective value. They state that money does not do anything to improve our lives, it is technology that has improved our lives; from a pencil, to a chair, to a simple household device which allows us to cook food without having to slave four or fives hours to get some help of serving for food.

3. Money is considered a paralyzing aspect to society; it always gives people the idea that they must be rewarded for doing something, when the act of doing something is far greater than any reward. Most do not understand this, thus it comes into the idea of "how much will it cost? To give a prime example of this is politics, when a question is asked about a solution of the problem it always asked "do we have the money?" When in reality it should never be about money in the first place it should be "do we have the resources? Do we have the technology? Do have the expertise?" You see what I mean?

4. To your current statement about nothing being done... it is not as simple as "hey let's go out and change the world!" Their are certain steps that have to be taken. One of them is informing people about the state of technology, the possibilities, what the proposed society has in store. As far as marketing... I don't what you even mean by that. The land for which the Venus Project has been put forth is not going for sale, nor is Jacque going to market it. Yes he will patent it, but that is only so others will not make a value or claim ownership of what Jacque has made. And Like I had stated before. Jacque is the only one that really needs the money to fund his research; Peter Joseph works in commercial advertising and is an artist of sorts.

5. Miracles are for the superstitious and no they don't think any miracle will happen; I have no idea what you are even talking about.

6. That is the only true thing you state is about the better society. But society will come when people work together, for a common good. What is so unbelievable and dangerous about it?

Do you have anything else you wish to bring up?

 

[IamtheVOICE123]

I certainly agree about this. The closest thing to a game plan for these ideas always end up something like: do your best to destroy the current system in whatever way you can, and then come work for us to take over the shattered remains of society!

But that doesn't change the fact that I find the possibility of such a society very intriguing and worth working towards perhaps.

This was addressed by Peter Joseph and in a blogtalkradio and he states that we must only force the current establishment into the position that they realize that we are in control, and they are not. He has also told everyone that we are not working towards making the system collapse. But I think you mean within the future. If that is the case and if I do see those signs, then I will distance myself from The Movement. I have however made a careful step in following their actions and how they created before I joined. I am very paranoid about Movements and this is by far the few ones I have fully supported. Only other one is the DMCAabuse channel on youtube; which I fully support.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I certainly agree about this. The closest thing to a game plan for these ideas always end up something like: do your best to destroy the current system in whatever way you can, and then come work for us to take over the shattered remains of society!

But that doesn't change the fact that I find the possibility of such a society very intriguing and worth working towards perhaps.

Yeah, but we need to actually work, not spread lies and try to subvert the current system without anything even remotely prepared to take its place.

 

[IamtheVOICE123]

First of all, what the hell does 'OP' stand for? Secondly, I guess I do not know if it is not based off of it for sure, but from the bits and pieces of the movie I saw and the reviews I heard of it in comparison to the websites information I tried to read and the people talking about such movements, they do not seem that similar.

The first movie and the second movie are made by the same person. The Movement however came within the second movie. It is a Movement to help inform the public about the state of technology and maybe perhaps convince them to work together for a common good despite differences.

 

[IamtheVOICE123]

Yeah, but we need to actually work, not spread lies and try to subvert the current system without anything even remotely prepared to take its place.

I see you are somewhat playing Devil's advocate here. If I may ask; did you ever listen to what the people involved within the Movement and what Jacque Fresco talks about? Or did you just listen to the opposing side?