What are your thoughts on the Venus Project?

[IamtheVOICE123]

Hello there; I was somewhat curious as to what your views on the Venus Project and it's creator Jacque Fresco. I am a member of the Zeitgeist Movement myself as well as here and I was somewhat curious as to the logical reasoning behind your views other than the illogical reasoning of others by religious fanatics and others. Do you think it may work or it wont work. If not then why?

http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3932487043163636261

This is the Orientation and the link to the Movement's website in case you are unfamilar with it...

http://www.thevenusproject.com/

And here is the Venus Project for thos unfamiliar with it as well.

 

[Aught3]

Is this based off that weird movie that makes those weird suggestions about the origins of christianity?

 

[irmerk]

Another Zeitgeist supporter had randomly posted in some thread a few weeks ago that got me interested in the concept. He was talking about the Evacuated Tube Transport, which is, so far, the only idea that I like from the concept.

Really, I have yet to hear any definitive concept or ideas from any Venus/Zeitgeist website or supporter. From what I have gathered, it is some utopia with the absence of resources save for computer controlled ones without an explanation of who controls or controlled the computer and no other real substance to the idea.

I would like to take this opportunity, being the first replier, to ask you to first explain what you believe in this respect in as much detail as you are willing and or capable of. Then I would be more willing to discuss it.

Oh, and Aught3, since you stole my first comment: The movie was too dumb and boring for me to even watch a fourth of it, and it does not seem like it is based off of the movie.

 

[Aught3]

Well I'm glad it's not based off the movie, I've heard some very unflattering things about it. It would be good if the OP explained the basics a bit further though.

 

[irmerk]

First of all, what the hell does 'OP' stand for? Secondly, I guess I do not know if it is not based off of it for sure, but from the bits and pieces of the movie I saw and the reviews I heard of it in comparison to the websites information I tried to read and the people talking about such movements, they do not seem that similar.

 

[IamtheVOICE123]

Another Zeitgeist supporter had randomly posted in some thread a few weeks ago that got me interested in the concept. He was talking about the Evacuated Tube Transport, which is, so far, the only idea that I like from the concept.

Really, I have yet to hear any definitive concept or ideas from any Venus/Zeitgeist website or supporter. From what I have gathered, it is some utopia with the absence of resources save for computer controlled ones without an explanation of who controls or controlled the computer and no other real substance to the idea.

I would like to take this opportunity, being the first replier, to ask you to first explain what you believe in this respect in as much detail as you are willing and or capable of. Then I would be more willing to discuss it.

Oh, and Aught3, since you stole my first comment: The movie was too dumb and boring for me to even watch a fourth of it, and it does not seem like it is based off of the movie.

Very well. The actuality of the entirety of the Venus Project is a self sustainment of the city that utlizes and applies the scientific method to society. The reasoning is, is that human behavior is largely dictated by our environment and our personal choices within the environment (the environment being the people we interact with and the culture we grew up in). It is the idea that by changing the environment we may very well be able to create a world without poverty, war, destruction, oberent behavior, along with superstitions like religion through education, meeting the basic needs that everyone needs in order to survive; such as food, clean water, clean air, shelter and clothing.

If you do wish to know who will control it, there is really no controlling governance of body. Because it is our belief that by giving someone control over such an incredible overseight of power, will eventually corrupt them. It is also claiming the World's resources as our common heritage as we all evolved through the process of natural selection from the Earth itself (mother earth if you will for a lack of a better term).

Also it is not paradime either, it is just a much better world than we care to think because we can never create a paradime or paradise world. Also our notion to solve problems like killers, sociopaths and so forth will be an evaulation of the person through psychology in allowing us to figure out the root cause of the persons oberent behavior; so we may remove the root cause and thus the person will not longer be who he was. It is a form of mental reform if you would. We do not believe that just putting a murderer to death will solve anyone's problem unless we figure out the root cause of it first.

Is there anything else you want to know?

 

[Aught3]

OP = Opening post/er.

 

[Ozymandyus]

I enjoyed the movie - it needs to be taken with a grain of salt and I certainly don't trust any of it as fact, but taken broadly it was enjoyable. I'm surprised you can watch that crazy stuff from alien scientist but not be able to watch this stuff.

Anyway, I believe that society should be directed by science which seems to be the general idea of the Venus Project. I believe there needs to be more democratic input, which I don't see much of in the Venus Project... but I haven't looked that far into the proposed societal structure. It also seems to underestimate the amount that our individual motivations for personal gain push us to contribute to society, so I'm not sure exactly how it would all play out on that front.

I certainly appreciate any attempts to drag humanity towards technology, but not sure how it would play out. The idea of looking carefully at our resources and setting long-term humanity-wide goals is very appealing to me, rather than these crazy, greed-driven, live in the moment methods for determining our future that we use now. It also fits very well with the way I've been thinking for a long time, so I'm not exactly the most objective judge of it.

Edit: Darn speech patterns!

 

[irmerk]

I'm surprised you can watch that crazy stuff from alien scientist but not be able to watch this stuff.

Yeah, well, you started two paragraphs in a row with 'anyway.' Suck it, Trebek.

Anyway, I believe that society should be directed by science which seems to be the general idea of the Venus Project. I believe there needs to be more democratic input, which I don't see much of in the Venus Project... but I haven't looked that far into the proposed societal structure. It also seems to underestimate the amount that our individual motivations for personal gain push us to contribute to society, so I'm not sure exactly how it would all play out on that front.

Anyway, I certainly appreciate any attempts to drag humanity towards technology, but not sure how it would play out. The idea of looking carefully at our resources and setting long-term humanity-wide goals is very appealing to me, rather than these crazy, greed-driven, live in the moment methods for determining our future that we use now. It also fits very well with the way I've been thinking for a long time, so I'm not exactly the most objective judge of it.

I guess I will have to save some time by agreeing with pretty much everything said here, save for maybe one thing, and just add to it. I think that a scientific input is better than a democratic, because science is an informed form of democracy. With the current form of democracy, disinformation and crap such as propaganda just makes mistakes replicate themselves.

I like the idea of basing a society, or I guess civilization, on science, and I guess I like the idea of building a city on this idea to test the idea out. However, it seems like the two biggest problems I have are the lack of any form of authority at all - I do not see how anything will get done in any particular direction - and what the hell people would do. By the latter, I mean that, as sad as it is, people thrive on conflict: Scares, wars, violence, etc. With all the resources for things in the best interest for humanity at your fingertips, what the hell would you do? Cobble shoes? Maybe the answer is pretty simple and I am over thinking it.

Edit: I do not know, I am always hesitant to ideas like this, kind of like AlienScientist. If these concepts are so great, why has no one else really caught on? I mean, I know ideas have to start somewhere, but I am just skeptical.

 

[IamtheVOICE123]

Edit: I do not know, I am always hesitant to ideas like this, kind of like AlienScientist. If these concepts are so great, why has no one else really caught on? I mean, I know ideas have to start somewhere, but I am just skeptical.

Well mainly because ideas like thise do not come to one. This idea of a society was started by Jacque Fresco who began the work during the 70s. In all honesty; I understand your skepticism.

 

[Homunclus]

Kinda interesting, is it just me or does this sociaty sound a lot like the sociaty of star trek?

I know that is a rather simplistic way of putting it, but it appears to be essencialy Anarchism with a little twist of technology...

 

[richi1173]

Also our notion to solve problems like killers, sociopaths and so forth will be an evaulation of the person through psychology in allowing us to figure out the root cause of the persons oberent behavior; so we may remove the root cause and thus the person will not longer be who he was. It is a form of mental reform if you would. We do not believe that just putting a murderer to death will solve anyone's problem unless we figure out the root cause of it first.

Reminds me of a couple of movies I've seen.

Where do you draw the line? Is it right for us to force a person who dresses differently, goths, emos ect., into mental health facilities just because we believe the person is mentally disturbed?

This sort of thing is what we currently have in our post-Columbine education system. People who look disturbed get forced into psychological treatment which ends up not helping the person at all.

In the end, we have the mob becoming a totalitarian regime.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

It sounds nice, but it is also bullshit. Pretty sounding bullshit, with a pink bow on top, but underneath it stinks pretty bad. The whole "we'll just make people what we want them to be" totalitarianism is the rot that runs through the entire concept.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Well mainly because ideas like thise do not come to one. This idea of a society was started by Jacque Fresco who began the work during the 70s. In all honesty; I understand your skepticism.

Sounds like a cult, the way you're talking about it... these are NOT new ideas, and Fresco isn't a special thinker who was the only person able to come up with this stuff.

 

[IamtheVOICE123]

Reminds me of a couple of movies I've seen.

Where do you draw the line? Is it right for us to force a person who dresses differently, goths, emos ect., into mental health facilities just because we believe the person is mentally disturbed?

This sort of thing is what we currently have in our post-Columbine education system. People who look disturbed get forced into psychological treatment which ends up not helping the person at all.

In the end, we have the mob becoming a totalitarian regime.

Ah yes I realize what you are talking about. I think this would be a good question to address to Peter Joseph on blogtalkradio. But at any such case; those are just figures of fashion statement, in area of personal outlet. The only reason they will have to go into mental reform if they hurt themselves or if they hurt others. Otherwise there is actually no reason for mental reformation. And I also agree with you; my father had to deal with a CPS psychologists who kept saying that my sister was repressing her memory of an accused child rape (which never happened and was only brought up because of an internet hoax of a guy wanting to fuck with my father). People within the movement as well as Fresco fully realize that these people and the thought's are dangerous.

 

[IamtheVOICE123]

It sounds nice, but it is also bullshit. Pretty sounding bullshit, with a pink bow on top, but underneath it stinks pretty bad. The whole "we'll just make people what we want them to be" totalitarianism is the rot that runs through the entire concept.

I believe you are mistaken; the belief is nothing along those lines. The belief is that all human beings have the right to food, shelter, clean water, and the basic necessities to live. And that we all have needs that would be met for entertainment, travel, communication and so forth. Most of these needs (besides entertainment) can be met with technological improvement. The entertainment can be met regardless because those that entertain will be able to because it is their passion.

Sounds like a cult, the way you're talking about it... these are NOT new ideas, and Fresco isn't a special thinker who was the only person able to come up with this stuff.

As far as the cult idea goes this is an idea shared by many skeptics but in all honesty cults have to have a form of belief in the afterlife, a leader to carry them there along with a specific goal towards attaining high enlightenment (usually by giving money or through sacrafice of ones life). This would not be a cult because it has none of these features.

And yes you are right he is not the first, but he is the first to act on what he says, instead of just talking about it.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

And yes you are right he is not the first, but he is the first to act on what he says, instead of just talking about it.

Oh please... where is this perfect society? Where has this guy and his worshipers actually done anything. I read the website, and it seems really eager to spread the cult, to disseminate the nonsense, and to sell books and DVDs, and not actually geared to do fuck-all.

 

[IamtheVOICE123]

Oh please... where is this perfect society? Where has this guy and his worshipers actually done anything. I read the website, and it seems really eager to spread the cult, to disseminate the nonsense, and to sell books and DVDs, and not actually geared to do fuck-all.

:lol: You know I have heard this before. Allow me to give you some information about this. It is not a perfect society, it is just much better than what we have now. I mean I think it is worth trying to get away from all the wars, destruction bigotry, intolerance of religion and so forth. It was never a paradise and this is even stated in Zeitgeist: Addendum by Jacque Fresco.

Also to your thing about Books and DVD's, they are just there for Jacque to get his ideas out there. He even states in his books that he is giving the owners full permission to take the books and create e-copies and put them on the internet, the same with his DVD's as well. He only sells them so he can get funding for his project. Hell, he even tells people to check his taxes and where he funds it and where to find it for anyone skeptical. I mean heck, he has stated that he would give his books away for free if he didn't have to pay the shipping, handling along with having to worry about funding for his project.

I hope I was able to clear that up for you.

Oh and about the spreading, idea's spread very quickly; the only reason people are willing to spread the idea is to allow others to hear about it, ask questions, do their own research and decide on their own. It's not a cult because cult's work to coerce people, not to inform people to the current state of technology and the possibilities.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

:lol: You know I have heard this before.

And I'm sure you didn't bother to take it seriously then, either. Same with all the criticisms of the "Zeitgeist" stupidity.

Allow me to give you some information about this. It is not a perfect society, it is just much better than what we have now. I mean I think it is worth trying to get away from all the wars, destruction bigotry, intolerance of religion and so forth. It was never a paradise and this is even stated in Zeitgeist: Addendum by Jacque Fresco.

Also to your thing about Books and DVD's, they are just there for Jacque to get his ideas out there. He even states in his books that he is giving the owners full permission to take the books and create e-copies and put them on the internet, the same with his DVD's as well. He only sells them so he can get funding for his project. Hell, he even tells people to check his taxes and where he funds it and where to find it for anyone skeptical. I mean heck, he has stated that he would give his books away for free if he didn't have to pay the shipping, handling along with having to worry about funding for his project.

I hope I was able to clear that up for you.

Oh and about the spreading, idea's spread very quickly; the only reason people are willing to spread the idea is to allow others to hear about it, ask questions, do their own research and decide on their own. It's not a cult because cult's work to coerce people, not to inform people to the current state of technology and the possibilities.

Clearly you didn't pay one tiny bit of attention to what I posted. Here, let me try again. WHAT HAS YOUR CULT LEADER EVER DONE?

 

[richi1173]

Ah yes I realize what you are talking about. I think this would be a good question to address to Peter Joseph on blogtalkradio. But at any such case; those are just figures of fashion statement, in area of personal outlet. The only reason they will have to go into mental reform if they hurt themselves or if they hurt others. Otherwise there is actually no reason for mental reformation. And I also agree with you; my father had to deal with a CPS psychologists who kept saying that my sister was repressing her memory of an accused child rape (which never happened and was only brought up because of an internet hoax of a guy wanting to fuck with my father). People within the movement as well as Fresco fully realize that these people and the thought's are dangerous.

What if they do hurt themselves and are perfectly fine with it? What if in a public setting they are perfectly normal and are outstandingly productive? Is it morally right for us to mentally reform them? What if they don't want to be mentally reformed? They have committed no crime whatsoever and society has not been harmed in any sort of way.

It sounds like that society is going to turn into xenophobic if it follows your movements blueprints.