The Islamic conquer of Europe

[Dogma's Demise]

You have to realize a lot of these immigrants come from an authoritarian religious-based regime. It's naive to think they will all shake this worldview off and embrace western values.

Look at the way Egypt is run for example. They got rid of their dictator, but they don't want to get rid of the system that got them in this mess in the first place: Sharia. Same for Lybia, so much for the so-called "Arab Spring".

You have to be careful when you allow mass immigration from places where this tainted cancerous worldview is prevalent. You risk importing unwanted barbaric values into your society and sowing the seeds of conflict for future generations.


Oh for those who are going to insist on "you're racist" or "you just hate Muslims", consider this: There is a concentration of Muslims in Romania, in Dobrogea area (near the Black Sea). They've been here for generations without causing trouble or demanding unreasonable special privileges. You won't see outbreaks of Muslim violence, burning cars, or incitement to terrorism.

 

[Laurens]

You have to realize a lot of these immigrants come from an authoritarian religious-based regime. It's naive to think they will all shake this worldview off and embrace western values.

It would be quite nice to see some statistics for this. Don't take that as me denying what you're saying, but I'd rather see evidence before I accept such a claim. If you could name the 'authoritarian religious-based regimes' and cite some statistics for just how many people are fleeing those places.

Bearing in mind that even if this is accurate those people might be fleeing these authoritarian religious-based regimes for the same reason that you or I might want to.

Look at the way Egypt is run for example. They got rid of their dictator, but they don't want to get rid of the system that got them in this mess in the first place: Sharia. Same for Lybia, so much for the so-called "Arab Spring".

I'm not sure how Sharia got them into the mess in the first place, but regardless of that the people are getting to choose their government by democratic means for the first time in ages, it's their look out if they elect a religious nut.

You have to be careful when you allow mass immigration from places where this tainted cancerous worldview is prevalent. You risk importing unwanted barbaric values into your society and sowing the seeds of conflict for future generations.

Has it crossed your mind that some immigration might very well be to escape the clutches of regimes with 'tainted cancerous worldviews'?

Its worth noting that your picture of Islamic immigrants coming here and bringing a poisonous worldview with them is not entirely accurate. In actual fact the younger generation in already settled Islamic communities are often prone to being exposed to radical Islam on the internet, much to the shock and bemusement of their wider community (when their kids end up being arrested). It's not as though Islamic extremists are coming here from the Middle East (I'm sure that wouldn't be such an easy task in these days of heightened alert to such a thing), people are being groomed into radicalism via the internet, or are being attracted to radical clerics via other means. I don't think there is a great deal to do with immigration, or at least not as much as you make it out to be.

Oh for those who are going to insist on "you're racist" or "you just hate Muslims", consider this: There is a concentration of Muslims in Romania, in Dobrogea area (near the Black Sea). They've been here for generations without causing trouble or demanding unreasonable special privileges. You won't see outbreaks of Muslim violence, burning cars, or incitement to terrorism.

There are arseholes in every community who will cause shit, burning cars, raping, stealing etc. What makes it different when Muslims do it?

 

[Dogma's Demise]

Right so back to this topic,

It would be quite nice to see some statistics for this.

You can scroll back to where I posted those statistics showing that 28% want UK to become an Islamic state. Dismissing them as "right-wing nonsense" or saying you have to poll 100% of all Muslims to get the idea is not a good counter-argument.

Don't take that as me denying what you're saying, but I'd rather see evidence before I accept such a claim. If you could name the 'authoritarian religious-based regimes' and cite some statistics for just how many people are fleeing those places.

Still using UK as an example, one source of Muslim immigration is Pakistan (either they came from there or their parents came from there, there's a chart here showing other locations as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign-born_population_of_Great_Britain,_2001 ), a pseudo-democracy governed by a bunch of primitive religious savages where blasphemy is a punishable crime (by death no less) and where thousands of women are honor-killed each year. A very high portion of Pakistan's population supports this, they want Islam to dominate their societies and it shows.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/179464/majority-of-pakistanis-want-government-to-islamise-society/
http://teaandpolitics.wordpress.com/2010/12/06/islamic-countries-poll-shows-growing-majority-favor-sharia-law-more-islam-in-public-life/
http://frontpagemag.com/2011/11/08/pakistan-and-the-arab-spring/

And as I said, given the circumstances, it's naive to think you can just randomly import immigrant, without even considering if they're suitable for your society. I mean let me illustrate that for you, let's say you have a hundred million coins lying around, half are heads (leaning towards secularism/moderacy) half are tails (leaning towards Islamism - i.e. political Islam). Now let's say you randomly start picking up coins, it doesn't take long before you get a roughly even distribution. Yes, you could, in theory, only pick up heads (without looking), but that's virtually impossible. Unless you actively filter out tails, you'll also get tails.

Why are you fine with importing this mentality, especially given the circumstances that your own native population doesn't even reproduce at replacement level? Your model of society right now is unsustainable long-term if things do not change soon. You have to either:

a. make more children
b. impose certain restrictions on immigration (like deporting extremists, closing down mosques/madrassas where extremist views are preached, close down Sharia tribunals, barring future extremists from entering, keep a close eye on ANY Saudi funded projects etc.)
c. follow the UAE model where immigrants almost never become citizens - they only come to work
d. convince as many Muslims as possible to leave their religion (good luck with that lol...)

Bearing in mind that even if this is accurate those people might be fleeing these authoritarian religious-based regimes for the same reason that you or I might want to.

Yeah that's entirely possible, but others also come and expect their worldview to dominate and don't give a shit about the culture of their new country or about respecting the law. And Europe acts as if it's not a problem when it clearly is, even blaming those who try to raise this issue as "bigots" "racists" "nazis" "far-right" "culturally insensitive" etc.

Another example of pandering to Islam I read about recently, London Municipal University is considering having "alcohol-free zones" on its campus because apparently some Muslims are not contempt with merely refraining from purchasing alcohol.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-17701963

And my question is, how much more of this before we start seeing more radical changes. We're already seen "voluntary" Sharia tribunals (and it really boggles my mind how a so-called "rational" atheist could defend those sexist primitive institutions for any reason and try to hide behind legal technicalities when it is clearly immoral) how long before they want our constitutions changed to accommodate more of their religion?

And for those saying it's not a big deal because you can still buy alcohol, so what? This is about principle. If Muslim students are offended by the mere sight of a beer bottle, there's an option for them: Quit the university and if that doesn't work emigrate. UK institutions shouldn't make any compromises just because some man from the 7th century didn't like alcohol. I don't like alcohol, but I've never demanded alcohol-free zones.

UK - a country where swimming pools can discriminate against non-Muslims by having "Muslim-only" swimming days. http://www.englandspeaks.co.uk/muslim-only-swimming-sessions/ Pathetic. Wake up, UK.

I'm not sure how Sharia got them into the mess in the first place

Because theocracy always gets you into this mess, it creates the conditions favorable for establishing an oppressive state and it justifies all sorts of atrocities under the banner of "God's will". I don't have many hopes about Egypt, my prediction for that country is that with these new Islamists in power you'll start seeing more of the same. More FGM on cultural grounds and for the sake of "sexual purity" or some other bullshit reason, more anti-women and anti-Christian oppression (on both legal and unofficial level), more stupid laws about cutting people's hands off or whatever, more censorship of political dissents etc. Just keep an eye on the news coming from there.

We're talking about a party with 45% seats in Parliament run by the Muslim Brotherhood and another party with 25% that is EVEN MORE radical than the first.

Its worth noting that your picture of Islamic immigrants coming here and bringing a poisonous worldview with them is not entirely accurate. In actual fact the younger generation in already settled Islamic communities are often prone to being exposed to radical Islam on the internet, much to the shock and bemusement of their wider community (when their kids end up being arrested).

By radical Islam I don't mean just terrorism and street violence linked Islam. But also the desire to politically impose Sharia. If you can't keep your religion out of politics, you're not a moderate to me.

 

[australopithecus]

You can scroll back to where I posted those statistics showing that 28% want UK to become an Islamic state. Dismissing them as "right-wing nonsense" or saying you have to poll 100% of all Muslims to get the idea is not a good counter-argument.

Actually it's an excellent counter-argument because it's honest and mathematically accurate. Claiming 28% of Muslims in the UK want the UK to be an Islamic state, when 0.07% of the Muslim population can be stated as wanting such, is called a lie. Unless you want to invent another word that describes not telling the truth...

 

[Dogma's Demise]

You can scroll back to where I posted those statistics showing that 28% want UK to become an Islamic state. Dismissing them as "right-wing nonsense" or saying you have to poll 100% of all Muslims to get the idea is not a good counter-argument.

Actually it's an excellent counter-argument because it's honest and mathematically accurate. Claiming 28% of Muslims in the UK want the UK to be an Islamic state, when 0.07% of the Muslim population can be stated as wanting such, is called a lie. Unless you want to invent another word that describes not telling the truth...

No, what you need is good survey sampling. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survey_sampling You don't need to poll everyone.

 

[australopithecus]

No, what you need is good survey sampling. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survey_sampling You don't need to poll everyone.

No, what you need is to be honest. You could have, or rather the source who you've gotten the 28% figure from should have, merely stated that "28% of Muslims polled want a UK Islamic state". You, and they, didn't. You parroted their line which is the dishonest appeal to fear which was "28% of Muslims want a UK Islamic state".

That is dishonest, but then the sources are tabloid rags.

From your wiki citation...

Survey samples can be broadly divided into two types: probability samples and non-probability samples. Only surveys based on a probability samples can be used to create mathematically sound statistical inferences about a larger target population. Inferences from probability-based surveys may still suffer from many types of bias.

Surveys that are not based on probability sampling have no way of measuring their bias or sampling error. Surveys based on non-probability samples are not externally valid. They can only be said to be representative of the people that have actually completed the survey.

So, those polls you've referenced. Were they probability samples or non-probability samples? Your argument hinges on it.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

This bullshit, again?!?!?! Dishonest, anti-immigrant bullshit. And of course Dogma's Demise is a racist bigot... no surprise there.

Here's some advice, chum: until you grow up and join sane adult reality, why don't you invest in some adult diapers and switch to plastic sheets for easier cleanup when you piss and shit yourself out of fear of a nonexistent threat?

 

[Prolescum]

This bullshit, again?!?!?!

Yep, he seems to think if he parrots the same crap it'll eventually hold some weight. It also seems that he thinks the 3-5 generations of Pakistanis who live in the UK (even those who moved here because of the partitioning of India, and those who fled it in fear in recent times) are all possible terrorists simply because Pakistan, the primitive-yet-nuclear-armed nation, is a barbaric Islamic state, (not the sometime-democratic-usually-military-controlled nation it actually is). You can't have a rational discussion with people who think like that.

#creepingsharia

 

[ImprobableJoe]

This bullshit, again?!?!?!

Yep, he seems to think if he parrots the same crap it'll eventually hold some weight. It also seems that he thinks the 3-5 generations of Pakistanis who live in the UK (even those who moved here because of the partitioning of India, and those who fled it in fear in recent times) are all possible terrorists simply because Pakistan, the primitive-yet-nuclear-armed nation, is a barbaric Islamic state, (not the sometime-democratic-usually-military-controlled nation it actually is). You can't have a rational discussion with people who think like that.

#creepingsharia

Yes, but you can have a rational discussion using their stupidity as a jumping-off point.

For instance, you bring up the point that the entire position is self-contradictory. The Muslims are a bunch of ignorant subhuman barbarians in their tiny numbers across the West, but who are at the exact same time the most devastatingly brilliant and dangerous threat to Western civilization since the Soviet Union. Both, at once! Stone Age cavemen who at the same time will blow up the whole world with the bombs and nukes that they don't have and can't get and can't deliver even if they could get them.

What it says to me is that the cowards and the bigots and the racists and the war mongers, right-wingers all and spiritual brothers of the Taliban, are happy to have a target/scapegoat to justify the attitudes and actions that they already supported. When they are trying to strip Muslims of their rights, they can claim that Muslims are a tiny minority who don't matter. At the same time, that tiny minority that they can strip of rights is also the scariest force for evil on earth and should be deported for the safety of (white)mankind. Great target for an endless war and lots of killing civilians and torturing innocents for those sickos who are into that sort of thing. An even better tool for politicians who prey on fear, and their followers who prefer their government to be strong and manly against the boogieman under the bed. And of course, OF COURSE the bigots are having a field day having a socially acceptable group of people to openly hate and despise and discriminate against.

 

[Dogma's Demise]

DID I say they're all "possible terrorists"? No, the terrorists are tiny tiny tiny minority. The Islamists... not as tiny as you think. Rationality my ass, VyckRo Number 2.

You can't have a rational discussion with someone who misuses the word "racist" in such a blatant way or who thinks we should tolerate Sharia law (or any part of it, in any form) in Europe either. You might want to think about that.

As for the poll, I honestly don't know those details, I don't have inside knowledge of how those polling companies work. One was NOP Channel 4, there was also another poll showing similar values from ICM Research, a "public opinion researcher" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICM_Research

So okay, maybe I'm wrong, but given the amount of harm that this religion has caused in most Islamic countries, you'd have to be a PC idiot to just dismiss these numbers and pretend it's "all good" and it's all just part of a conspiracy to somehow demonize Islam or non-whites. (You don't see people complaining about Hindu fanatics do you? That's right, they virtually don't exist in UK.) I honestly can't think of a single Islamic country right now that has a good human rights record, can you? (Maybe Turkey but even there there is "unofficial" Islamic violence and attempts to infiltrate politics with religious nonsense. Now name something other than Turkey.) At the very least it warrants further investigation, but with PC thugs crying racism at every opportunity (even though ISLAM IS NOT A RACE) no doubt nothing will be done about it.

You know what's real discrimination? Being barred from a swimming pool because you're a filthy infidel. Now you can explain to me how a swimming pool can get away with that nonsense without being heavily penalized.

You can also explain why cultural relativist idiots running that university feel the need to have "alcohol free zones" on campus? What is there a 2nd hand alcohol inhaling I'm not aware of or do their students have a problem with the concept of "if you don't want alcohol, don't buy alcohol"?

What it says to me is that the cowards and the bigots and the racists and the war mongers, right-wingers all and spiritual brothers of the Taliban, are happy to have a target/scapegoat to justify the attitudes and actions that they already supported. When they are trying to strip Muslims of their rights, they can claim that Muslims are a tiny minority who don't matter. At the same time, that tiny minority that they can strip of rights is also the scariest force for evil on earth and should be deported for the safety of (white)mankind. Great target for an endless war and lots of killing civilians and torturing innocents for those sickos who are into that sort of thing. An even better tool for politicians who prey on fear, and their followers who prefer their government to be strong and manly against the boogieman under the bed. And of course, OF COURSE the bigots are having a field day having a socially acceptable group of people to openly hate and despise and discriminate against.

Isn't it ironic, first you dismiss my ideas as "fear of a nonexistent threat" and then you post a stupid conspiracy theory like this one and a bunch of strawman?

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Isn't it ironic, first you dismiss my ideas as "fear of a nonexistent threat" and then you post a stupid conspiracy theory like this one and a bunch of strawman?

I'm not the one pissing his pants over a conspiracy of Muslim super villains who you stupidly believe have some sort of power over Western civilization. That would be you.

Plus, I don't see how "conspiracy" and "strawman" serve as a refutation of what I've posted. You DID post something about a swimming pool... which if that's your proof of a vast Islamic conspiracy than maybe they should keep you and your adult diapers out of the pool in the name of maintaining proper sanitation.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

There are arseholes in every community who will cause shit, burning cars, raping, stealing etc. What makes it different when Muslims do it?

One of the privileges of whiteness is that you get to be treated as an individual. When a white person rapes, steals, or murders it is because they are a rapist, thief, or murderer. When a non-white person does the same thing, people declare that it is because there is a natural or cultural tendency for non-whites to be criminals.

 

[Prolescum]

PC thugs crying racism at every opportunity

Now that doesn't mean Eurabia cannot become a reality in 50-100 years

Base neologism on Muslim terrorist stereotype, an Arab, and apply to all Muslims living in Europe.

Not racist. :lol:

28% of UK Muslims want UK to become an Islamic state

Lie in attempt to back up "Eurabia" premise.

Not racist. :lol:

Islam is the most dangerous religion

Unqualified claptrap to back up "Eurabia" premise.

Not racist. :lol:

almost every country that has a majority Islamic population is in a sort of dark age now

Supposition using weasel words to back up "Eurabia" premise.

Not racist. :lol:

terrorism is heavily correlated with Islam

Unverifiable (and clearly nonsensical) bullshit based purely upon the level of sensational reporting in tabloid rags to back up "Eurabia" premise.

Not racist. :lol:

 

[australopithecus]

As for the poll, I honestly don't know those details, I don't have inside knowledge of how those polling companies work. One was NOP Channel 4, there was also another poll showing similar values from ICM Research, a "public opinion researcher" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICM_Research

So okay, maybe I'm wrong [...]

Right, now we're getting somewhere. Now do you concede that asserting the 28% figure was, at best, misjudged?

but given the amount of harm that this religion has caused in most Islamic countries

Bit of a tautology. Of course Islam will cause harm in Islamic countries, just as Christianity causes harm in Christian countries.

you'd have to be a PC idiot to just dismiss these numbers and pretend it's "all good" and it's all just part of a conspiracy to somehow demonize Islam or non-whites.

I'm dismissing the claim that 28% of UK Muslims agree with an Islamic state. Also, PC? That the best you can do? Decry those who disagree with you as idiots? Bad form.

(

You don't see people complaining about Hindu fanatics do you? That's right, they virtually don't exist in UK.)

They do in India. Perspective is the key.

I honestly can't think of a single Islamic country right now that has a good human rights record, can you? (Maybe Turkey but even there there is "unofficial" Islamic violence and attempts to infiltrate politics with religious nonsense. Now name something other than Turkey.)

Why should I, you answered the question yourself. Name an Muslim country that has a good human rights record (post-Armenian genocide, of course) Turkey. You don't get to ignore the undermining of your argument by demanding another example. Too late.

At the very least it warrants further investigation, but with PC thugs crying racism at every opportunity (even though ISLAM IS NOT A RACE) no doubt nothing will be done about it.

PC?

You know what's real discrimination? Being barred from a swimming pool because you're a filthy infidel. Now you can explain to me how a swimming pool can get away with that nonsense without being heavily penalized.

Can you give any example of that happening in the UK? Ever?

You can also explain why cultural relativist idiots running that university feel the need to have "alcohol free zones" on campus? What is there a 2nd hand alcohol inhaling I'm not aware of or do their students have a problem with the concept of "if you don't want alcohol, don't buy alcohol"?

Most public places in the UK are alcohol free zones. They are where I live. My campus at University, outside of student bars and halls of residence were alcohol free. Anyway, Universities are free to run themselves and their campuses how they see fit.

Creeping sharia indeed. :roll:

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Have you ever noticed that racists/bigots think that saying "PC" and "you're always calling people like me racists/bigots" is actually a valid and effective defense? And everything is strawmen, ad hominem, and other falacies that you're sure that they don't actually understand?

Oh, and all terrorism is Islamic... so long as you define away all other terrorism as not-terrorism so long as a Muslim isn't involved. Here in America we have had a pretty steady rate of terrorism across the country committed by white right-wing Christians, and it is NEVER referred to as terrorism because they have defined to term to only include Muslims. Mass shootings, firebombing, flying planes into buildings, assassinations, attempted bombings, murder of police officers, terror plots... all committed by white, right-wing Christians. Muslims? Nada in the last decade, besides a couple of frame-ups by the FBI.

 

[Dogma's Demise]

So let me guess this straight:

Racists tend to use "PC" often.
I use "PC" often.
Therefore I'm racist?

Does not compute.

Hmmm...

Muslims don't drink alcohol.
I don't drink alcohol. (Really, I don't.)
Therefore I'm a Muslim.

OH NOES! My secret is exposed. :lol:

And again, Islam is not a race and Islamism (i.e. the political Islam, the advocation of Islamic rule as opposed to simply following your religion in your own private life) arguably doesn't even deserves the status of religion given that it has more in common with a totalitarian political ideology (like communism, only communism didn't have the label of "religion" to hide behind so people see it at face value) that seeks to control everything in the country with little room for change, from criminal law, banking and marriage, to who you fuck in the bedroom, what you drink/eat etc. plus it doesn't offer women equal status to men.

ImprobableJoe, you're simply putting words in my mouth and Vy... err, Prolescum, you're simply seeing racism where there is none.


As for "Eurabia" reference, it's just a shot at Saudi Arabia (the epitome of how bad Islamic theocracy can be): Europe + [Saudi] Arabia - I thought it was pretty comical term. It's not an attack on Arabic people nor am I implying that Muslim = Arab. I don't particularly care for it, so I'll stop using it if it bothers you that much.


Regarding the swimming pool example, I posted a link above. Same with that university. They said they SPECIFICALLY want alcohol free zones on cultural grounds for their Muslim students and I think this is a bad message to send to Muslims. I doubt most of the Muslim students even cared, but now they have precedent to actually make demands. Good job.


australopithecus, I concede that the poll could be wrong. But I see no reason why these people would fake it or use biased samples. Why aren't they equally concerned with trying to make Hindus or Indian immigrants look bad if there really is some UK nationalist bias to keep non-whites or non-Christians out of UK?

 

[ImprobableJoe]

You can't have a rational discussion with people who think like that.

Dogma's Demise, you keep posting, and you keep proving Prolescum right. What few "facts" you've posted are dumb and/or wrong, and I guess you've even admitted being wrong on one occasion. Your responses are either wrong, or they don't actually engage with what people say.

Here, try engaging with this:

Muslims in Europe have little to no power. They have no weapons to compare with the armies of the countries they live in. They don't have the manpower to take on even the smallest local police department. One of the strongest examples of Muslim influence over Western civilization that you can find is that Muslim women can get a couple of hours a week for private swimming at a local pool. Is that really the best you can do? That's like claiming that Israel owns the American prison system because some Jewish prisoners can get a kosher meal. Don't you feel silly and unnecessarily afraid yet?

 

[CommonEnlightenment]

It appears that people in this thread have been reading too much Orwell.

Oh yeah, and..... "You're &^%*ing Out"

 

[ImprobableJoe]

It appears that people in this thread have been reading too much Orwell.

"People" have names. Name them, and explain what you mean.

 

[CommonEnlightenment]

It appears that people in this thread have been reading too much Orwell.

"People" have names. Name them, and explain what you mean.

Nope, I'm not required to do so. And I'm not required to do so in a place like this.