The Islamic conquer of Europe

[The Felonius Pope]

Dogmas Demise, I get what you are saying, but consider this: In my town there is a church that rents classrooms at the high school. You can go to the church, no questions asked, but to join the youth group you actually have to sign a document pledging your faith. In other words, the church is reserving rooms at the school solely for Christians. Should they not have the right to do that?

 

[Nom_de_Plume]

Dogmas Demise, I get what you are saying, but consider this: In my town there is a church that rents classrooms at the high school. You can go to the church, no questions asked, but to join the youth group you actually have to sign a document pledging your faith. In other words, the church is reserving rooms at the school solely for Christians. Should they not have the right to do that?

I believe, we have a couple of christian youth groups that also reserve our local pools for christian swim nights I know when I was a teen they used to have "christian roller skating nights" at our local rollerdome. Played christian rock.

 

[Dogma's Demise]

Dogmas Demise, I get what you are saying, but consider this: In my town there is a church that rents classrooms at the high school. You can go to the church, no questions asked, but to join the youth group you actually have to sign a document pledging your faith. In other words, the church is reserving rooms at the school solely for Christians. Should they not have the right to do that?

They have that right, that doesn't sound like an issue because that youth group is specifically designed for religious purposes so it would make little sense for an atheist to be there, kind of like a non-biker expecting to join a biker club. (And they rent that space. The only question I'd have is if a public high school has that power to rent its space at all, for any purpose, but in any case it's not discrimination in my view.)

Same if you replace "Christian" with "Muslim" (provided the it's not some extremist/Wahhabi youth group that teaches children to hate Jews, implement Sharia and dominate the dhimmis, such groups if they exist should be outlawed)

 

[The Felonius Pope]

They have that right, that doesn't sound like an issue because that youth group is specifically designed for religious purposes so it would make little sense for an atheist to be there, kind of like a non-biker expecting to join a biker club.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. Just wanted to hear your opinion on the youth group thing.

(And they rent that space. The only question I'd have is if a public high school has that power to rent its space at all, for any purpose, but in any case it's not discrimination in my view.)

What are you gonna do? The school district is strapped for cash.

 

[Frenger]

The only question I'd have is if a public high school has that power to rent its space at all, for any purpose, but in any case it's not discrimination in my view.)

Yep, I work in a college in the UK and we rent out our "space" for a whole manner of different things. The knee society was a recent one, plus we had a whole weekend of "spirituality".

If people want to rent out private space for their groups and the building allows it then why not? (please note, this will not lead to Muslims renting out the Houses of Parliament).

 

[Laurens]

Same if you replace "Christian" with "Muslim" (provided the it's not some extremist/Wahhabi youth group that teaches children to hate Jews, implement Sharia and dominate the dhimmis, such groups if they exist should be outlawed)

So you're anti-freedom of speech? Or is it just selective in this case?

Do you think white-supremacist groups who teach that there is a worldwide Jewish conspiracy and that black people are a different species should be outlawed? Do you think Christian groups who teach that homosexuals are sinners and should be denied equal rights should be outlawed?

If not then do you have any non-arbitrary criteria by which you deem that radical Islamic preachers should be silenced, when the views of other radical groups should not?

 

[CosmicJoghurt]

Same if you replace "Christian" with "Muslim" (provided the it's not some extremist/Wahhabi youth group that teaches children to hate Jews, implement Sharia and dominate the dhimmis, such groups if they exist should be outlawed)

So you're anti-freedom of speech? Or is it just selective in this case?

Do you think white-supremacist groups who teach that there is a worldwide Jewish conspiracy and that black people are a different species should be outlawed? Do you think Christian groups who teach that homosexuals are sinners and should be denied equal rights should be outlawed?

If not then do you have any non-arbitrary criteria by which you deem that radical Islamic preachers should be silenced, when the views of other radical groups should not?

I'm not trying to feed on others' posts for pride, but I second this question.

 

[Frenger]

I will also throw my hat in with Laurens question.

 

[Dogma's Demise]

Same if you replace "Christian" with "Muslim" (provided the it's not some extremist/Wahhabi youth group that teaches children to hate Jews, implement Sharia and dominate the dhimmis, such groups if they exist should be outlawed)

So you're anti-freedom of speech? Or is it just selective in this case?

Very selective. Try to look at the context a bit and the target audience too, not just the content. For example I wouldn't try to stop some fundie moron going on the Internet and preaching how Islam will take over the West, but at the same time, I wouldn't want this individual being granted a visa into my country (or anywhere else in Europe) much less a platform to indoctrinate children.

It's hard to draw the line, but I think targeting the young minds of children with this Islamist bullshit is a severe form of child psychological abuse that will turn them into useless anti-social vermin later in life, (plus the religious element will make it harder to deconvert them from this ideology) and should be treated separately from let's say teaching the exact same message to adults.

You wouldn't read erotic literature to a child either and call that "free speech".

Do you think white-supremacist groups who teach that there is a worldwide Jewish conspiracy and that black people are a different species should be outlawed?

Depends on how far they go. Marching through the streets chanting "Death to Jews/blacks" would already be a criminal offense in many countries and I'm pretty sure you can't form political parties with openly racist agendas either. So it's not like there aren't already restrictions that we deem reasonable.

Do you think Christian groups who teach that homosexuals are sinners and should be denied equal rights should be outlawed?

Again, depends on how far they go. Saying that homosexuality is a sin and being against homosexual marriage is one thing. I personally think it's retarded, but I think it's better to allow them to say this so we can discuss and debunk this.

Encouraging people to assault or kill homosexuals because they are homosexuals is not acceptable. It's an instigation to a criminal act and should be treated as such. However I'm not aware of many Christian groups who do that.

If not then do you have any non-arbitrary criteria by which you deem that radical Islamic preachers should be silenced, when the views of other radical groups should not?

Well just try to weigh in the pros and cons, I don't really know what else to say.

 

[Dogma's Demise]

Well well, looks like more stories from Europe (this time Italy and Germany) about unwanted Islamic values being taken into account in the court system.

Apparently back in 2003 in Italy, a Moroccan Muslim girl (at the time 19 years old) was beaten by members of her own family. What did the courts do? Jack shit, cause we must respect their culture, TROLLOLOLOLOL! :lol:

http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2007/08/italy-court-discriminates-against.html

Also a Muslim woman not being helped in Germany with divorce: http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2007/03/germany-judge-supports-honor-crimes.html


Now sadly, the language barrier (and the date of the articles which makes them several years old and are now gone) makes it more difficult for me look further into this, the sources cited were Il Messaggero (Italian), Liberation (French), Spiegel (English) and the articles were deleted apparently.


So okay they could be complete fabrications for all I know. But I'm still suspicious, given that many Europeans have already proven they're willing to make allowances for Islam, demonize everyone who objects as a "racist" or "culturally insensitive" or some other BS and consort with the enemy. We're talking about people wiling to cooperate with Islamist organizations like the Muslim Brotherhood (and let me make this clear, there should be NO dialog with them except to prove how full of crap they are, they are the enemy of the EU, a bunch of Islamist dickheads with a "utopic" vision of society where everyone is ruled by Sharia or pays the jyzia tax not to - in any case, an agenda that doesn't include secularism or free speech). http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2282


If this is indeed happening, it needs to stop. There is one rule for all, being Muslim doesn't give you a pass to circumvent assault or divorce laws. Shame on the dhimmi-minded folk.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Racist bigot sites? Kind of tough to take seriously.

 

[Dogma's Demise]

Racist bigot sites? Kind of tough to take seriously.

Let me know when you actually find something that's racist on this site: http://islamineurope.blogspot.com I couldn't find any.

 

[Prolescum]

*Yawn*

Dogma's Demise,

You made yourself look like a racist, you definitely are a bigot, and you haven't convinced anyone here that your views on this topic have any value, so why persist in posting this shit every few days? Besides your bigotry, I mean...

What do you hope to accomplish here?

 

[Dogma's Demise]

And you made yourself look like an Islamzied PC leftie. Every time you call me a racist I'm going to call you that so we're even.


Yeah I'm a bigot against totalitarians, boohoohoo. Because I don't want some 7th century dogma imposed on me, I'm a bigot? The double standard of the PC crowd never ceases to amaze me, I wouldn't be surprised if you started growing a beard and forcing your girlfriend to wear a burqa for the sole purpose of appearing "tolerant". Here's a tip: If you want to complain about bigotry and "racism", why don't you focus on the even smaller minority: the EX-Muslims, who face vastly more oppression than ex-Christians or ex-Jews or ex-Hindus or ex-Buddhists etc.

And guess what, most ex-Muslims aren't white either so you could probably make some strange case that people are being racist against their own race.

Or maybe you'll blame the ex-Muslims who speak against the political side of Islam for being racist against their own races, I dunno. You figure it out. :lol:


I have nothing against moderate Muslims. Heck, scratch that, I have nothing against conservative Muslims, as long as they keep their ideas to themselves and don't want to force them on others.

 

[Prolescum]

waaaaah waaaaah waaaah a lie waaaaah some gibberish then more waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Seeing as you answered neither question put to you, I'll repeat them:

Why do you persist in posting this crap every few days?

What do you hope to accomplish here?

 

[ImprobableJoe]

*Yawn*

Dogma's Demise,

You made yourself look like a racist, you definitely are a bigot, and you haven't convinced anyone here that your views on this topic have any value, so why persist in posting this shit every few days? Besides your bigotry, I mean...

What do you hope to accomplish here?

Driving up my post rate? :lol:

 

[Laurens]

There are undoubtedly bigoted, violent and oppressive exponents of radical Islam in the world - to deny this is to deny reality. However, to portray all Muslims as though they hold similar views is simply misguided, there is a fine line between making justified criticisms of radical or political Islam and making broad generalizations about Muslims.

The whole rhetoric that Muslims are all covertly attempting to take over Europe, impose Sharia law and do away with democracy is far too overblown if you ask me. Not only that, but the rhetoric sounds alarmingly similar to conspiracy theories made about Jews. Sure, there is a problem of radical Islam along with the potential threat of terrorism that this brings with it - and it is one that our governments are undoubtedly making efforts to keep an eye on, however there are also millions of Muslims who do integrate into society, who do not carry out honour killings or wish to harm anyone. There are also many Muslims who speak out against the radicals, and some who actively make efforts to counter it.

Call me a politically correct lefty if you want, but I am merely weary of making broad generalizations about Islam, and I am also weary of exaggerating the genuine problems that do undoubtedly exist. I am of the view that in order to counter Islamic extremism effectively we need to work with the moderates to ensure that measures are taken within Islamic communities to counter radicalism. Much of the anti-Islamic rhetoric, such as that which you hear spouted by the EDL runs counter to this aim, and serves to not only aggravate the radicals even more, but also to alienate the moderates, whom are probably our most useful ally against extremism.

 

[Frenger]

Is this thread still going? Really?

This is nothing more than 10 pages of horse shit, if it carries on we're going to nearly have a bibles worth.

 

[Dogma's Demise]

Laurens, I don't think I have ever said that moderates are just covering for the extremists. I mean look at my first post, I've said from the beginning that a coordinated effort on part of all or most Muslims is ridiculous.

I just said that there aren't as few extremists.

(I would also say that people can be easily deceived into thinking someone is a "moderate", I mean anyone know the YouTube user DawahFilms? He fooled everyone pretty good about being a moderate, until he came out supporting political Islam as the "alternative" to the "immoral" war-waging secular humanism and human rights.)

The closest thing to that I have said is that Islamists are exploiting peaceful followers of Islam to make it harder to criticize them. It's the "I know some perfectly good Muslims therefore Islam isn't bad" trick.

Why do you persist in posting this crap every few days?

It's a forum, I'm just posting my concerns about the "religion of peace" and its slow intrusion into areas where it doesn't belong. :lol: Today voluntary Sharia arbitration that discriminate against women, tomorrow ... ?

What do you hope to accomplish here?

I don't know, I'm just voicing my concerns that Europe is going in the wrong direction and it's being overly tolerant to Islamic fascism.

Doesn't it raise an eyebrow when you have Islamist idiots being given the "Sir" title even though they can't even bring themselves to condemn an immoral fatwa from Iran:

"Death, perhaps, is a bit too easy for him [i.e. Salman Rushdie] his mind must be tormented for the rest of his life unless he asks for forgiveness to Almighty Allah."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iqbal_Sacranie

How about the Association of Muslim Schools chairman who thinks apostasy should be dealt with the death penalty?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fx-SgHKqtns


THAT's the kind of key figure you want involved in the "education" of children? How about madrassas that present evolution as just speculation/"theory" rather than science? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjqF-6r4kP0 Why even have faith schools at all when it just encourages segregation? Everyone should go to the same public schools, any religious teaching should be outside school and should be regulated so it doesn't include things like hatred of Jews or instructions on how to cut off arms and legs. (See my previous link a few pages back.)

But nah, ZOMG RACISM111


EDIT: Meh, I'll give this thread a rest now. It's gone on far too long.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Part of the problem with this sort of bigotry is that it feels like common sense to the bigots. It feels normal and obvious to aim a laser-like focus on statistically-insignificant actions by Muslims and then extrapolate them into a "Muslim problem" while ignoring that most of the problems in the world are caused by a minority of ALL groups, including the group the bigot belongs to. A European anti-Muslim bigot will associate every negative action(or simply perceived negative) by a Muslim to be an issue with Islam, but doesn't associate football hooligans with all Europeans, or Catholic child abuse with all Catholics, or any actions by members of their group with themselves.

The random Muslim is required to be responsible for all Muslims, but the white guy from wherever gets to be an individual and his actions only reflect on himself. That's a form of bigotry.