If God Was Real, Would You Worship?

[lrkun]

An opinion isn't a fact. A is A, but you can say A is nice or A is a bad letter. So we're not talking about A is B here.

:facepalm: If you think A is nice, then someone tells you they'll kill you unless you say A is bad, will you actually think that A is bad or will you just say it? What your proposing isn't changing an opinion because of reason, it's brainwashing yourself.

I'd say A is bad in that case, for I value my life. But, that's a different case or are you assuming that if god was real he'd kill you if you don't believe in him?

 

[SirYeen]

I could force myself to love him.

I doubt that. Have you ever had a person love you, yet you don't love them back? Maybe because they're assholes or cuz they're ugly, it doesn't matter. Now try to fall in love with said person.
I can't, because love is not something I choose or can control. And neither can anyone I have met.

So once again: Are you seriously saying that you can do this? If that's the case, you have a gift and I want it.

It is not about attraction or about desire at all to me. We have a different definition of love.

 

[RichardMNixon]

:facepalm: If you think A is nice, then someone tells you they'll kill you unless you say A is bad, will you actually think that A is bad or will you just say it? What your proposing isn't changing an opinion because of reason, it's brainwashing yourself.

I'd say A is bad in that case, for I value my life. But, that's a different case or are you assuming that if god was real he'd kill you if you don't believe in him?

I'm saying that you saying A is bad doesn't mean you believe A is bad. To believe something you don't believe, you need to brainwash yourself.

 

[lrkun]

I'm saying that you saying A is bad doesn't mean you believe A is bad. To believe something you don't believe, you need to brainwash yourself.

But that's not the case isn't it. If god was real and he is good, I bet you'd be one of his believers. Now assuming he is bad, then you'd grow to hate him. Knowing that a god can do almost anything, assuming he exists, where you can't really fend yourself against him, would you defy him and suffer everlasting fire or brainwash yourself?

I think this is the case that you wish to present.

 

[RichardMNixon]

I'm saying that you saying A is bad doesn't mean you believe A is bad. To believe something you don't believe, you need to brainwash yourself.

But that's not the case isn't it. If god was real and he is good, I bet you'd be one of his believers. Now assuming he is bad, then you'd grow to hate him. Knowing that a god can do almost anything, assuming he exists, where you can't really fend yourself against him, would you defy him and suffer everlasting fire or brainwash yourself?

I think this is the case that you wish to present.

I don't know that I am capable of brainwashing myself. I'm inclined to think I'm not.


More importantly, we come back to the deceitful god I outlined on the last page. What if brainwashing yourself is exactly what god least wants you to do? You can't reliably win no matter what you chose. The only constant is that I would rather oppose a tyrant than serve one; I would rather be true to myself than suppress my thoughts.

 

[lrkun]

I don't know that I am capable of brainwashing myself. I'm inclined to think I'm not.


More importantly, we come back to the deceitful god I outlined on the last page. What if brainwashing yourself is exactly what god least wants you to do? You can't reliably win no matter what you chose. The only constant is that I would rather oppose a tyrant than serve one; I would rather be true to myself than suppress my thoughts.

What ifs are what ifs, it means to say a lot of possibilities. What if a god exists and it's not deceitful? What if a god exists and it's not a tyrant?

You see, you've based your statements on the premise that if a god exists, he must be tyrannical. Don't you think it's possible that he might not be what you think? Of course, these are what ifs.

 

[RichardMNixon]

Of course, these are what ifs.

Yes, they are all what ifs. That's exactly what I said. Even if it was possible to brainwash myself, I don't know if doing so would give me a better outcome or not, so why should I do it? The only thing I do know is that I would rather use reason and my judgement than deliberately suppress it.

 

[lrkun]

Of course, these are what ifs.

Yes, they are all what ifs. That's exactly what I said. Even if it was possible to brainwash myself, I don't know if doing so would give me a better outcome or not, so why should I do it? The only thing I do know is that I would rather use reason and my judgement than deliberately suppress it.

There is no need to suppress your reason and judgment, assuming a god exists and he is good, for your reason and judgment will lead you to worshiping him. Where in this case, you don't worship him, then you're deliberately suppressing reason and judgment.

 

[RichardMNixon]

Yes, they are all what ifs. That's exactly what I said. Even if it was possible to brainwash myself, I don't know if doing so would give me a better outcome or not, so why should I do it? The only thing I do know is that I would rather use reason and my judgement than deliberately suppress it.

There is no need to suppress your reason and judgment, assuming a god exists and he is good, for your reason and judgment will lead you to worshiping him. Where in this case, you don't worship him, then you're deliberately suppressing reason and judgment.

:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: Yes, obviously if god was a great guy I could actually love it. I never said I would hate god no matter what and force myself to hate it if I had to. I said I neither can nor would try to force myself to have an opinion different from that which my reason guides me to. If I think god is a great guy, fine, problem solved. If I think god is a dick, no amount of hymns and bible clutching will make me not think what I think.

 

[Squawk]

Not read the whole thread, going to bed in a tick too so will have to read in the morning, so just gonna answer the opening question.

Yep, would have to (presuming the whole hell/heaven thing is true). An eternity in hell would be a bitch. Of course that presumes that said deity would allow me into heaven knowing that I really thought he was a prick but was worshiping him through fear of punishment.

 

[RichardMNixon]

Yep, would have to (presuming the whole hell/heaven thing is true). An eternity in hell would be a bitch. Of course that presumes that said deity would allow me into heaven knowing that I really thought he was a prick but was worshiping him through fear of punishment.

Or that heaven exists. For all we know the deity just says it does so we obey, then casts us into eternal torment anyway once it's too late for us to rebel.

 

[Andiferous]

You need to define more about this god than that. Is your god an invincible cosmic tyrant that you know for a fact could never be usurped? Then I suppose I'd agree. Anything I didn't do the tyrant could do anyway if there's no allowance for opposition. Is this god more like Pullman's Authority - powerful and able to torment you but not invincible? Then you'd be a coward and a murderer.

The real difficulty I suppose is if you don't know. Is it a gnostic demiurge claiming to have ultimate power when really it doesn't? Or is it actually alpha and omega? And while we're on uncertainty and deceitful gods, how do you know that going inquisition on every one of us will actually save you from torment? What if after you go inquisition on everyone, this evil god decides to torment you anyway. What are you going to do, cry "no fair?" What if it is a deceitful but peace-loving god who weeds out cowardly murderers by asking people to go inquisition on everyone else, then sends any who do "go inquisition" immediately to eternal torment as punishment for their cowardly violence?

There's too many degrees of freedom. You can't be sure if you're going to win or lose no matter what your choice is. I think the only thing I can be sure of is that I'd rather fight a tyrant than serve one.

Great point. If you're going to torture people and be part of a merciless and brutal inquisition, I don't want to be in the same room with you, never rmind share heaven space, or even respect your god in the least. People do the same through politics somewhere at every time, but that doesn't mean you'll join the dark side of the force. Or does it? If so this doesn't help the argument.

There is no need to suppress your reason and judgment, assuming a god exists and he is good, for your reason and judgment will lead you to worshiping him. Where in this case, you don't worship him, then you're deliberately suppressing reason and judgment.

I think you're right in say that IF we knew god existed
we would necessarily believe it too
(unless by delusion we deny what we know)
Because knowing god exists isn't that different from believing it.
This is to presume we know it true.

But if we don't already know it and therefore believe it, the argument is really little different than our current condition of not knowing. So makes no difference if god is true or not if we don't know it in the end.

That said, worshiping said god is a leap. There is no reason that calls us to worship anything. I'd daresay worship cannot be proved to be reasonable.

 

[kenandkids]

That said, worshiping said god is a leap. There is no reason that calls us to worship anything. I'd daresay worship cannot be proved to be reasonable.

It's similar to the idea that although I know fire exists, I won't worship it. No matter if someone tells me, as a priest of firegod, that I need to worship said firegod. I will not. Even should someone claim to be firegod, wreathed in flame, I'm still very unlikely to do so. Should firegod cure all cancer and re-limb all amputees, I will be far more likely to worship, but even then, I would question why a being that can cure cancer or reform amputees would possibly require my worship.

I've always, even as a fundie and when I was in seminary, considered that any appearance or demand of god should be held in the highest suspicion. Most likely it would be A trickster or THE trickster causing false worship.

This is the whole of my issue: No matter the proof or appearance of god, can you ever be certain that it is real. For if the bible's god exists, so too would the bible's enemy of god. Could you imagine any circumstance that god could convince you beyond doubt that he wasn't, in fact, the devil himself?

 

[lrkun]

:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: Yes, obviously if god was a great guy I could actually love it. I never said I would hate god no matter what and force myself to hate it if I had to. I said I neither can nor would try to force myself to have an opinion different from that which my reason guides me to. If I think god is a great guy, fine, problem solved. If I think god is a dick, no amount of hymns and bible clutching will make me not think what I think.

You're learning. Keep up the good work, for you finally understood my point.

 

[RichardMNixon]

:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: Yes, obviously if god was a great guy I could actually love it. I never said I would hate god no matter what and force myself to hate it if I had to. I said I neither can nor would try to force myself to have an opinion different from that which my reason guides me to. If I think god is a great guy, fine, problem solved. If I think god is a dick, no amount of hymns and bible clutching will make me not think what I think.

You're learning. Keep up the good work, for you finally understood my point.

Your point was a complete straw man. I never said I made it my duty to hate god no matter what. I only said that if god was a tyrant, bowing to him isn't guaranteed to give you a positive outcome.

 

[lrkun]

Your point was a complete straw man. I never said I made it my duty to hate god no matter what. I only said that if god was a tyrant, bowing to him isn't guaranteed to give you a positive outcome.

You know, no matter how much you hate this lesson, it is for your benefit. I'm just happy you've learned it while you're able. You're welcome, don't mention it. ^^

Point: Critical thinking.

 

[TheFlyingBastard]

No, LRKun. That's not what he said. You're talking about a stupid, moronic god. Nixon has already accounted for this god having intelligence, that's how he's going one step beyond acts and that's also why you're setting up a strawman. You're talking about self-preservation. He's not. You're not "teaching" any "lesson" here.

 

[lrkun]

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{TEXT}

Yes, because god is real in this instance.

Reality

I don't think about it, because I don't know if there is or isn't a god.

 

[RichardMNixon]

What I did.

Richard assumed that if god existed that god is bad. If it's bad he'd hate him.

I said what if that god is good?

Richard says he might like him.

No, that's not what you did. We were having a lengthy discussion on whether or not someone could force themselves to believe something they didn't believe. In this case, if you did think god was evil, could you force yourself to think he was good, to genuinely change your opinion not because new information came to light, but because you wanted a different opinion for reasons that don't factor into (and indeed in this case factor against, unless you take kindly to people threatening you) what that new opinion is.

You then started down an entirely different question (what if god is good), applied my answer to the old question (what if god is evil) to the new question and immediately called out the apparent contradiction. That is a strawman. Straw men aren't "simpler," they're different in such a way that they're false while the similar, original position is still true. I never said I would hate a good god, you said it for me. What really earned my ire however, is that when I rejected your strawman, you went on to patronize me about critical thinking and claimed that I "finally understood [the] point" you had only just made.

 

[lrkun]

What I did.

Richard assumed that if god existed that god is bad. If it's bad he'd hate him.

I said what if that god is good?

Richard says he might like him.

No, that's not what you did. We were having a lengthy discussion on whether or not someone could force themselves to believe something they didn't believe. In this case, if you did think god was evil, could you force yourself to think he was good, to genuinely change your opinion not because new information came to light, but because you wanted a different opinion for reasons that don't factor into (and indeed in this case factor against, unless you take kindly to people threatening you) what that new opinion is.

You then started down an entirely different question (what if god is good), applied my answer to the old question (what if god is evil) to the new question and immediately called out the apparent contradiction. That is a strawman. Straw men aren't "simpler," they're different in such a way that they're false while the similar, original position is still true. I never said I would hate a good god, you said it for me. What really earned my ire however, is that when I rejected your strawman, you went on to patronize me about critical thinking and claimed that I "finally understood [the] point" you had only just made.

My conclusion

You understood my point when you said you might like god if he's good or you might hate him if he's bad.

The Strawman Claim

My argument isn't a strawman because it doesn't refute a different argument. What I did was lead you to a situation where you'll be forced to change your opinion if the facts changed. You were able to change your mind, but that in itself doesn't say your wrong when you hate god if he's bad.

The Problem (it's hypothetical for we can only add a quality to something that was never there)

God can be good or bad or something in this case. (reference: thread title)

Your stand is god's bad. I added the situation where god is good. Now the argument's complete, unless someone adds a qualification to something.

Simple huh?

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Note:

I will no longer address issues which are no longer related to the thread starters original topic.

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