^Agreed. If God just defines what is right and wrong for us, personally, then there is no point to having free will. If God punishes us for using our free will, then there is no point to it either. If God exists, then the only true way to be free would be to deny him no matter what, it's you who decides the value of your own principles.
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If God Was Real, Would You Worship?
- Thread starter Yfelsung
- Start date
D
Deleted member 619
Guest
Not unless he issues a new commandment:
Thou shalt kick the celestial peeping-tom in the nuts saying, 'Verily, Yahweh, you are a complete cunt.'
Thou shalt kick the celestial peeping-tom in the nuts saying, 'Verily, Yahweh, you are a complete cunt.'
Gnomesmusher
New Member
ArthurWilborn said:
Posturing is at least something, some might even go through with it all the way. It just scares me that you've already decided to inflict onto others what you're so deathly afraid of so readily and eagerly.
Andiferous
New Member
Agreed to some extent; but this said, what is the benefit of obedience? Would it change your answer were the only reward eternity in ethereal sinless tyranny? I can see the motivation were it a matter of political survival. But the other is like eating broccoli breakfast shakes your entire life so that you can feel righteous existing on unlimited broccoli breakfast shakes forevermore and never again experience bacon and eggs.ArthurWilborn said:
That said, I'm not necessarily going to be honest if you go all inquisition on me, as there's nothing holding me to telling the truth on the matter. Swearing on the bible doesn't necessarily help here.
D
Deleted member 619
Guest
Cando said:
You didn't like my post?
SirYeen
New Member
Heaven with a guilty conscious is no different from hell. I wouldn't.
*EDIT* : I'm being dishonest :
I do believe you are all posturing.
A power that I disagreed with but had no power over me, I would oppose vocally.
A power that I disagreed with that had the power to kill me, I would oppose quietly.
A power that I disagreed with that had the power to torment me endlessly? I would follow, out of pure necessity. I would probably go all inquisition on every one of you if that's what was required of me.
^ This guy's right. Although I'd probably go Buddhist style and make sure hell doesn't feel like it.
*EDIT* : I'm being dishonest :
I do believe you are all posturing.
A power that I disagreed with but had no power over me, I would oppose vocally.
A power that I disagreed with that had the power to kill me, I would oppose quietly.
A power that I disagreed with that had the power to torment me endlessly? I would follow, out of pure necessity. I would probably go all inquisition on every one of you if that's what was required of me.
^ This guy's right. Although I'd probably go Buddhist style and make sure hell doesn't feel like it.
Iprodigy said:
And what if said power can see into your mind? See that you are not really loving that power but only doing it out of necessity? What if you can only escape eternal torture if you love said God? I wouldn't be able to love that God because I can't make myself fall in love with someone. If you can, you've got a gift!
Inferno said:
2 things:
1) If there's a god that can see into my mind, know my innermost thoughts and feelings, then this god, by default, knows me better than anyone. This god would know my reasoning and know why I disbelieved in this god and the supernatural. Because of this, if it turns out that this god does exist and he is revealed to me in any way (such as through me dying) then I would either have nothing to fear from him (and so a gender was assigned...), or nothing to lose.
2) On the notion of thought-crimes I would probably echo Hitchens' sentiment of disgust. It is a foul and repulsive way of frightening children into feeling ashamed or bad and it proposes invading your most private inner sanctum; it continued to have an effect me even several years after I became an atheist.
Of all the fears that are interwoven with faith this one is probably the worst, holding back millions of people every day from actual free thinking.
Inferno said:
I should further clarify
. With nothing to lose I also meant that if he'd send me to a hellish place I wouldn't be able to do anything about it... 'cause he knows my thoughts anyway. So I'll just keep thinking the sinful thoughts I'm thinking RichardMNixon
New Member
ArthurWilborn said:
You need to define more about this god than that. Is your god an invincible cosmic tyrant that you know for a fact could never be usurped? Then I suppose I'd agree. Anything I didn't do the tyrant could do anyway if there's no allowance for opposition. Is this god more like Pullman's Authority - powerful and able to torment you but not invincible? Then you'd be a coward and a murderer.
The real difficulty I suppose is if you don't know. Is it a gnostic demiurge claiming to have ultimate power when really it doesn't? Or is it actually alpha and omega? And while we're on uncertainty and deceitful gods, how do you know that going inquisition on every one of us will actually save you from torment? What if after you go inquisition on everyone, this evil god decides to torment you anyway. What are you going to do, cry "no fair?" What if it is a deceitful but peace-loving god who weeds out cowardly murderers by asking people to go inquisition on everyone else, then sends any who do "go inquisition" immediately to eternal torment as punishment for their cowardly violence?
There's too many degrees of freedom. You can't be sure if you're going to win or lose no matter what your choice is. I think the only thing I can be sure of is that I'd rather fight a tyrant than serve one.
RichardMNixon
New Member
Iprodigy said:
I disagree. Can you force yourself to believe that Stalin was a humanitarian? Forcing yourself to believe something you don't doesn't make any sense.
RichardMNixon
New Member
lrkun said:Yes, one can choose to change one's opinion about someone.
I disagree. An opinion can change based on reconsideration, new knowledge, apologies, etc. but you can't earnestly change your beliefs just because you want to. This is one of the problems with Pascal's Wager. A is A. Even if I pretend A is B and tell everyone I believe A is B, I'll still be lying to myself and know that I am.
RichardMNixon said:lrkun said:Yes, one can choose to change one's opinion about someone.
I disagree. An opinion can change based on reconsideration, new knowledge, apologies, etc. but you can't earnestly change your beliefs just because you want to. This is one of the problems with Pascal's Wager. A is A. Even if I pretend A is B and tell everyone I believe A is B, I'll still be lying to myself and know that I am.
An opinion isn't a fact. A is A, but you can say A is nice or A is a bad letter. So we're not talking about A is B here.
RichardMNixon
New Member
lrkun said:
:facepalm: If you think A is nice, then someone tells you they'll kill you unless you say A is bad, will you actually think that A is bad or will you just say it? What your proposing isn't changing an opinion because of reason, it's brainwashing yourself.
SirYeen
New Member
RichardMNixon said:
You are thinking about it the wrong way. It is not forcing yourself to alter the facts or alter your judgement. It's about no longer judging said god, and about loving him independent of his actions.
Best comparison in real life is the parent - child relationship. Often parent's will love their children no matter what they do.
Iprodigy said:
I doubt that. Have you ever had a person love you, yet you don't love them back? Maybe because they're assholes or cuz they're ugly, it doesn't matter. Now try to fall in love with said person.
I can't, because love is not something I choose or can control. And neither can anyone I have met.
So once again: Are you seriously saying that you can do this? If that's the case, you have a gift and I want it.