Fuck Israel!

[Unwardil]

Have to agree with Dogma on this one.

The people Israel are fighting want to kill Israeli's and are successful at it when left to their own devices. That's not a problem you can simply ignore. I don't know what magic you think guided missiles run on but when you fire them they cause a lot of damage. If you're suggesting that in order to be more accurate Israeli soldiers should have to put their own lives in jeopardy to actually fight hand to hand and rifle to rifle with insurgents, well, you're an idiot. That would put Israeli loses up and make it look more 'fair' and what does that accomplish? Nothing. Is it more moral to kill an enemy combatant if more of your own side has to die to do it?

As for ignoring international law, well that's fine when both sides are in compliance, but as soon as one side breaks it, you can't exactly expect the other side to keep on blindly obeying it. What does international law have to say about suicide bombers again?

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Hamas and Fatah have already made it clear, they want the destruction of Israel and won't back down until that goal is fulfilled. How about their intentional use of human shields? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield#By_Palestinians It's no wonder there are so many civilian casualties. The Palestinians they don't care about their own. They want the casualties to go up to make Israel look bad.

Did you honestly think a little switcharoo like that would go unnoticed? We go from actions committed by Hamas and Fatah to "the Palestinians" all being in on the whole plan.

Anyway, I won't complain. Bigots are easier to spot when they lack subtlety.

Well, you have to appreciate the other switch that he pulled. He blames the victims of Israeli terrorism for their own victimhood. What Israel calls "terrorists using human shields" is in reality "Israel murdering hundreds of civilians in their homes for no good reason."

 

[televator]

Oh sure, let's nitpick everything I say now and avoid the real issue. Yes, I'm sure some Palestinians (individually) would rather things be different, there is never a complete consensus. Sorry for not speaking the language of political correctness, so let me rephrase that.

The people who run Palestine don't care about their own. They want the casualties to go up to make Israel look bad.

These people are also supported by the vast majority of the population. They had elections and these are the people they put into power, a bunch of Islamists, terrorists and war criminals who make no secret of the fact that they want Israel gone. No peace, no "two-state solution", GONE. They do not recognize Israel's right to exist.

So now we go from all to vast majority... :lol: Oh my... Such nuance is overwhelming. It's an assertion I'm sure you've pulled out of your ass. As if "the vast majority" of any state actually show up to an election, or as though regimes haven't assumed power through force and intimidation before rather than by popular support.

 

[Unwardil]

The truth of the whole matter is the formation of the state of Israel was a stupendous Geo-political mistake of astronomical proportions and should never have been done in the first place. After WW 2, the jewish people could have been given any plot of land anywhere in the world practically and it's difficult to imagine a worse place then the one they got. Talk about out of the frying pan and into the fire, they are quite literally ringed on all side by neighbors who want to drive them into the Mediterranean.

As for the senseless slaughter of civilians, I'm not going to excuse it but what do you expect. The IDF is a largely militia force. They're not full time professional soldiers, many of them probably don't want to be there (I know I sure as hell wouldn't want to be there) and then they learn that a friend or family member got blown up by a suicide bomber. You think the chain of command is going to stop them getting just a little over enthusiastic about following orders then?

And Israel needs to draft their army in order to maintain a strong enough military to keep themselves safe. If the IDF stopped being a mandatory service they would not have the numbers they need.

It's a shit sandwich of a situation, wrapped in a whole grain cluster fuck and deep fried in shit, served with a side of fuck clusters. Israel is by no means innocent in it's dealings but it is absolutely the lesser of two evils. The least of a vast horde of evils come to that.

 

[Dogma's Demise]

The truth of the whole matter is the formation of the state of Israel was a stupendous Geo-political mistake of astronomical proportions and should never have been done in the first place.

You know, I actually agree with this. It probably would have been better not to (re)form the Israeli state in that part of the world. Not because they don't have a historical right to that land (they do), just that it turned out to be not worth the hassle. (Then again, you can't really predict the future all the time. Making decisions after the event is easy, but somewhat pointless.)

But the deed's done and it's too late to change it now. Palestine (and indeed the entire Middle Eastern region) needs to get used it, there was never even a nation called Palestine before 1948. It was ruled by the British (called the "Palestinian Mandate") and before that it was ruled by the Ottomans. Israel is not going away any time soon, if they wanna continue playing hardball over a state that's not even nearly as big as ancient Israel used to be, they'll get more than they bargained for. This is not a threat or call for genocide as I'm sure some will try to twist it into, it's simply my assessment of the situation in that region.

 

[Unwardil]

Well, yes, I think while hind sight is 20/20 I think foresight could have actually been employed back in the day to very accurately predict what would happen there.

I think the only real surprise from a historical perspective, and a glad one at that, is that Israel is actually still around today.

 

[Visaki]

Just a quick question for Dogma's Demise:

Why do you think they, being the jewish religionists, have a historical right to the Palestine region? Moreover why do you think their historical right is any better than that of any other people and why would it matter now (or in 1948)?

 

[Dogma's Demise]

Why do you think they, being the jewish religionists, have a historical right to the Palestine region? Moreover why do you think their historical right is any better than that of any other people and why would it matter now (or in 1948)?

Oh please, are you implying the Jews who founded 1948 Israel were just converts with no link to ancient Israelis?

Look I'm sure some are converts, but for the most part, these are ethnic Jews. (Some of them could be atheists for example, yet still count as ethnic Jews.) Their ancestors were forced out of their homeland about 1900 years before, so they returned. (Then again some Jews never even left.)

As for "other people", you do realize the Arabs also got a state of their own in the region? Modern Israel is not as big as ancient Israel. Yet the Arab leaders didn't accept the borders and went to war in league with the other neighboring states.

 

[WarK]

The truth of the whole matter is the formation of the state of Israel was a stupendous Geo-political mistake of astronomical proportions and should never have been done in the first place. After WW 2, the jewish people could have been given any plot of land anywhere in the world practically and it's difficult to imagine a worse place then the one they got. Talk about out of the frying pan and into the fire, they are quite literally ringed on all side by neighbors who want to drive them into the Mediterranean.

But that piece of land was given to them by a god.

 

[Dogma's Demise]

But that piece of land was given to them by a god.

Let's not reduce everything to religion now, there's Jewish religion (Judaism) but there's also the Jewish nationality.

Atheist Jews have the same right to live there, pretty much like atheist Romanians have a right to live in Romania.

 

[WarK]

But that piece of land was given to them by a god.

Let's not reduce everything to religion now, there's Jewish religion (Judaism) but there's also the Jewish nationality.

Atheist Jews have the same right to live there, pretty much like atheist Romanians have a right to live in Romania.

What about the displaced Arabs that lived there? Don't they have the right to live there? Moving people around won't reverse the time.

Making policy on some bronze age mythology will always end well, only it'll take a few millennia longer.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

What about the displaced Arabs that lived there? Don't they have the right to live there? Moving people around won't reverse the time.

Making policy on some bronze age mythology will always end well, only it'll take a few millennia longer.

The displaced Arabs didn't have a nation officially recognized by white people, therefore they don't count. They aren't real people at all, from the perspective of some people. That's why when 1400 Palestinians die and 13 Israelis die, it is proof that the Palestinians are committing the atrocity, because apparently 100 Palestinian lives are worth less than a single Israeli life.

But they aren't bigots or racists or anything, they swear!

 

[Laurens]

I am anti-Israel, although not to the point where I think it should be denied existence (as some anti-Israelis are). I'm for a two state solution in which the Israelis and the Palestinians both get a share of land. I guess the problem is that each side desires the elimination of the other - so neither are going to be agreeable to such a solution....

So fuck it lets nuke them all...

 

[Dogma's Demise]

What about the displaced Arabs that lived there? Don't they have the right to live there? Moving people around won't reverse the time.

Making policy on some bronze age mythology will always end well, only it'll take a few millennia longer.

Well sure, there are religious implications, I'm just saying let's not reduce everything to religion. The whole state of Israel could convert to atheism tomorrow, my stance wouldn't change just because their ancestors were under the delusion that God gave them the land.

I can see where this is going though. I've seen people before attack the legitimacy of Israel on purely religious grounds, for example there was this guy who said "well if they're real Jews, why do they tolerate homosexuality in Israel" and some other bullshit like that. Another was asking why some atheists are against Christianity and Islam, but favor Judaism.

I mean sure the "promised land from God" thing is ridiculous, but how many countries or ethnic groups in this world are truly founded on justice or rationality? America for example was founded on the dead bodies of the Native Americans, but nobody (well almost nobody) is suggesting that modern Americans don't have a right to the land.



The Arabs by the way were given a state too in the region. Israel accepted. The Arab leaders didn't accept it. They went to war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UN_Partition_Plan_For_Palestine_1947.svg - This is the map.

Some Arabs however did stay in Israel and today they're citizens of Israel and have equal rights. They make up 20% of Israel.

Also nobody seems too concerned about the Jews who were expelled from Arab lands around that time because of the whole Israel controversy. Well, they moved to Israel.

Or about the Palestinian refugees who are discriminated against in Arab countries, because those countries are trying to artificially maintain their "identity". So they refuse to treat them as they treat other immigrants or refugees, they don't become citizens, their children don't become citizens, they can't work certain professions, they don't get healthcare coverage etc.

The displaced Arabs didn't have a nation officially recognized by white people.

What nation are you talking about? "Palestine" never existed, it was under British rule before 48 and before that under Ottoman Empire which was disbanded after WW1. So where exactly did this "Palestinian" identity pop up?

They were given a state anyway, they pissed on the partition plan and went to war, and that's why you have this pointless endless conflict today.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I am anti-Israel, although not to the point where I think it should be denied existence (as some anti-Israelis are). I'm for a two state solution in which the Israelis and the Palestinians both get a share of land. I guess the problem is that each side desires the elimination of the other - so neither are going to be agreeable to such a solution....

So fuck it lets nuke them all...

I've long advocated that Israel become the world's nuclear waste dump. Since nobody wants to share their toys, it is time for Papa Nuke to take them all away. :lol:

See, I don't know how you get rid of Israel at this point without causing the same sort of damage that was done to the Palestinians in the creation of Israel. Two wrongs don't make a right, so a two-state solution seems OK... since the Israeli government is too racist to allow Palestinians full human rights.

 

[Dogma's Demise]

I've long advocated that Israel become the world's nuclear waste dump. Since nobody wants to share their toys, it is time for Papa Nuke to take them all away. :lol:

See, I don't know how you get rid of Israel at this point without causing the same sort of damage that was done to the Palestinians in the creation of Israel. Two wrongs don't make a right, so a two-state solution seems OK... since the Israeli government is too racist to allow Palestinians full human rights.

It won't be long now and we'll probably be seeing you at rallies holding picket signs saying "We are all Hamas"...

Or maybe something more evident like "Israel you will pay, demolition on its way".

 

[WarK]

See, I don't know how you get rid of Israel at this point without causing the same sort of damage that was done to the Palestinians in the creation of Israel. Two wrongs don't make a right, so a two-state solution seems OK... since the Israeli government is too racist to allow Palestinians full human rights.

Perhaps righting the wrongs shouldn't be the goal? Maybe it should be focused more on future? I don't know.

I'm not pro/against either of the sides. They both have people who commit crimes and also good people that just want to live in peace. Israel have more power and money and they use their martyrdom to influence other countries.

I think in 100 years it won't change too much.

 

[Dogma's Demise]

I think I may have found you a friend, ImprobableJoe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYFGIbaabTU

:lol:

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Perhaps righting the wrongs shouldn't be the goal? Maybe it should be focused more on future? I don't know.

I'm not pro/against either of the sides. They both have people who commit crimes and also good people that just want to live in peace. Israel have more power and money and they use their martyrdom to influence other countries.

I think in 100 years it won't change too much.

Well... that's sort of what I'm saying. That you can't right past wrongs with current wrongs, but you CAN right the current wrongs by NOT DOING THEM ANYMORE. And since Israel has the power and is doing 99% of the killing, they are the ones who have the power to stop making things worse.

 

[Unwardil]

See, no, Israel has to do SOMETHING about the fact that there are people strapping bombs to their chest and blowing themselves up in public places. This would happen whether or not Israel retaliates for it. You see, while individual suicide bombers may be influenced by a sense of hopelessness and revenge, the people who fund and equip them are not. They are motivated and funded by those who want to see Israel obliterated.

That whole Lebanon thing a while back was because people in lebanon were launching home made rockets into Israel out of lebanon and lebanon was either doing nothing to stop it or was incapable of stopping it from happening.

So the israeli military went in there and cleaned it out.

What would happen if say, islamic militants took over canada and started lobbing rockets into buffalo from Fort Erie. Would you expect the U.S. to wait for a U.N. resolution sanctioning military action to roll in and stop it? No. No you wouldn't.

Same thing is happening in Israel, only replace rockets with suicide bombers. Unfortunately Israel cannot set the precedent of not going after militants if they are too close to civilians because EVERYWHERE IN THE WEST BANK IS LIKE THAT! If a suicide bomber is in the west bank, they are already too close to civilians to be able to make a safe surgical strike.

The very fact that there are Palestinians left is evidence enough that Israel is more in the right than they are wrong. If the opposition rhetoric is to be believed, were the roles reversed the same would not be true of the Israelis.