Fuck Israel!

[tuxbox]

I wonder why the Palestinians are pissed??

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I wonder why the Palestinians are pissed??

Because they are evil. Even the children. Maybe especially the children, because according to DD potential to cause harm means 100 times more than actually causing harm, so even though Israel kills hundreds more Palestinian civilians than Palestinians kill Israeli civilians, baby Palestinians may someday invent death rays and even up the score, so they need to be murdered in their cribs before they grow up.


Also, because they believe that someday they will have nukes and a billion dollars each, and on that day they WILL RULE THE WORLD!!!!

 

[Dogma's Demise]

I wonder why the Palestinians are pissed??

That is so fucking one-sided. :lol: First of all there's never been a nation called "Palestine". Israel however did exist a long time ago (before others conquered the area and drove most of the Jews away). So keep this in mind when determining what states to form there after you've just disbanded an empire.

1946 - Not relevant. There was only "Palestinian Mandate" British ruled land. There were both Jews (32%) and Palestinians (rest) living in that land in that year. Does it make sense to form a purely Palestinian state especially given the history of that place as well?
1947 - Yup, the UN plan recognized both states. Jews accepted, Palestinians didn't and went to war. That's why they ultimately got even less territory between 1949-1967. The 1947 borders would have been harder to defend from future attacks. You get violent, you lose.
1967- The occupation only came to exist because that year the Palestinians in collusion with their neighbors yet again wanted to attack Israel and destroy it to form a purely Palestinian state. But they failed (again). So for security measures, Israel wanted to keep Palestinian territory under a tight watch. The borders are not exactly easy to defend, Israel is a very small country and someone in control of the West Bank for example could easily use it as a platform for launching an attack on Israel. See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytWmPqY8TE0

So, what you can conclude from this is: There could easily be peace if the Palestinians and their neighbors laid down their weapons. They would have had their state in 1947, but Jew hatred (yes, didn't you know the grand mufti Al-Husseini was an ally of Hitler?) and nationalist ambitions got the better of them.

See my older posts in this thread for more.

Now you mention it yes, I do find the bombing of civilian targets to be immoral, regardless of which side does it. Dresden was just as evil as Coventry, London et al.

Yes, well I'm not going to dispute that.

But there was absolutely no question here. The Nazis had to be stopped. It would have been stupid, maybe even suicidal, to boycott the Allied forces due to some of their own shortcomings.

Hamas =/= Palestine. Nobody is saying Hamas are the good guys, what we're saying is that Israel, while entirely justified in protecting it's people and borders, is not justified in the disproportionate Palestinian civilian deaths said 'protection' ultimately causes. the Israeli government is psycopathic, just as Hamas is.

They're both evil.

Hamas are basically half of the PNA, the others being mostly Fatah, and they're not much better. Another group of warmongering idiots who want Israel disbanded.

 

[australopithecus]

Hamas can make up half of whatever it likes, it still is disingenuous to associate Hamas with Palestine. The conservative party make up the majority of the UK government, they still don't represent the views of most British people.

Same thing with Palestine. Show me evidence of the political and social opinions of the Palestinian population then we can discuss representative governance.

 

[tuxbox]

That is so fucking one-sided. :lol: First of all there's never been a nation called "Palestine". Israel however did exist a long time ago (before others conquered the area and drove most of the Jews away). So keep this in mind when determining what states to form there after you've just disbanded an empire.

1946 - Not relevant. There was only "Palestinian Mandate" British ruled land. There were both Jews (32%) and Palestinians (rest) living in that land in that year. Does it make sense to form a purely Palestinian state especially given the history of that place as well?
1947 - Yup, the UN plan recognized both states. Jews accepted, Palestinians didn't and went to war. That's why they ultimately got even less territory between 1949-1967. The 1947 borders would have been harder to defend from future attacks. You get violent, you lose.
1967- The occupation only came to exist because that year the Palestinians in collusion with their neighbors yet again wanted to attack Israel and destroy it to form a purely Palestinian state. But they failed (again). So for security measures, Israel wanted to keep Palestinian territory under a tight watch. The borders are not exactly easy to defend, Israel is a very small country and someone in control of the West Bank for example could easily use it as a platform for launching an attack on Israel. See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytWmPqY8TE0

So, what you can conclude from this is: There could easily be peace if the Palestinians and their neighbors laid down their weapons. They would have had their state in 1947, but Jew hatred (yes, didn't you know the grand mufti Al-Husseini was an ally of Hitler?) and nationalist ambitions got the better of them.

See my older posts in this thread for more.

I am well versed in the history of Palestine. Shortly after WWI, the Arabs and Jews had a signed agreement to support a new Jewish state and for a Arab and Palestine state. The conditions for this agreement was that the Arabs would control Syria, but the asshats at the League of Nations gave Syria to France. That is when the Arabs backed out of the deal. While it is a fact that Palestine is an area of land and has never been a state, it does not mean the Arab decedents of pre WWI Palestine (the Palestinians) do not have a right to be pissed.

I support an Israeli state and their right to exist, but I do not support their tactics. I also do not support the Palestinian government. That said, BOTH the Israeli government and the Palestinian government are at fault, as neither side is willing to compromise.

Which is why I stick with my original sentiment which is, "Fuck Israel, Palestine and US foreign policy!"

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

Dogma's Demise, I could recommend a number of books to you - such as Perilous Power:The Middle East and U.S. Foreign Policy: Dialogues on Terror, Democracy, War, and Justice by Noam Chomsky and Gilbert Achcar, or Gaza in Crisis: Reflections on Israel's War Against the Palestinians by Noam Chomsky and Ilan Pappé - but I doubt you'd be interested in these, given your anti-left stance.

Perhaps, however, you might find Our Last Best Chance by King Abdullah II of Jordan more acceptable?

Or The Punishment Of Gaza by Gideon Levy, a ex-IDF soldier who now works as a journalist for Ha'aretz?

One book I would urge you to read is I Shall Not Hate: A Gaza Doctor's Journey on the Road to Peace and Human Dignity by Izzeldin Abuelaish, a Palestinian doctor whose three daughters and niece were killed when their bedroom was hit during Israeli shelling of Gaza.

It will open your eyes, if not your heart.

===============================

As for Israel's policies, they clearly leave a great deal to be desired.

One rule of thumb for government policies is:

Bad policies divide the community into "us versus them" - and, in doing so, makes "them" into scapegoats. Good policies unite the community - bringing them together under the state's aegis.

Israel's policies with regard to Palestinians, more often than not, are "bad" - they divide the community (the people of Israel and Gaza/West Bank) and make the Palestinians into "them". They are not just failing - they are not even attempting - to win "the battle for hearts and minds".

If successive Israeli governments are to solve the problem, they must unite the community.

There is a sizeable group of moderates which form the Peace Movement in Israel, made up of both Jews and Palestinians who are more-than-willing to "live and let live": this group must form the centre-piece of Israel's policy.

By implementing policies which strengthen and broaden this group, they can gradually minimize the extreme views - and thus the extremists - of both sides of the religious/socio-political spectrum.

How can they do this?

By implementing a public education system - with integrated schools, where Jews, Muslims (and Christians, etc) can send their children to be educated in a secular environment - they can allow children of all sides to grow up knowing and seeing others as no different than themselves.

Kindest regards,

James

 

[ImprobableJoe]

That is so fucking one-sided. :lol: First of all there's never been a nation called "Palestine". Israel however did exist a long time ago (before others conquered the area and drove most of the Jews away). So keep this in mind when determining what states to form there after you've just disbanded an empire.

1946 - Not relevant. There was only "Palestinian Mandate" British ruled land.

Check out the blatant racism. White people claimed it, and then gave it to other white (Jewish) people, therefore the brown people who lived there for a thousand years have no real claim on the land.

 

[Dogma's Demise]

I support an Israeli state and their right to exist, but I do not support their tactics. I also do not support the Palestinian government. That said, BOTH the Israeli government and the Palestinian government are at fault, as neither side is willing to compromise.

Well, this is the problem, you can't really negotiate much when Hamas and Fatah are so anti-Israel all they see is the entire region under Palestinian rule. You can give them the '47 borders, you can give them half of Jerusalem, and they will demand more and more until there's no longer any Israel. You are dealing with religious fanatics who are willing to fight to the death.

Do you know what their number 1 goal is (Fatah's):

Goals
Article (12) Complete liberation of Palestine, and eradication of Zionist economic, political, military and cultural existence.

And Hamas, well, this pic speaks louder than words:

So how exactly is this going to work out when they've repeatedly shown they are not to be trusted?

 

[tuxbox]

Well, this is the problem, you can't really negotiate much when Hamas and Fatah are so anti-Israel all they see is the entire region under Palestinian rule. You can give them the '47 borders, you can give them half of Jerusalem, and they will demand more and more until there's no longer any Israel. You are dealing with religious fanatics who are willing to fight to the death.

This thread was never about support for Hamas or Fatah's. It was about the evil tactics used by the Israeli military and government against the Palestinians. No one, including the OP supports radical elements of Islam, but your hatred of radical Islam has blinded you this fact. Anyway, it does not really matter how many Palestinian people hate Jews, most of them are not murders and civilian populations should NEVER be a military target.

Do you know what their number 1 goal is (Fatah's):

Goals
Article (12) Complete liberation of Palestine, and eradication of Zionist economic, political, military and cultural existence.

That still does not excuse Israel's treatment of the Palestinians.

And Hamas, well, this pic speaks louder than words:

They suck at map making.

So how exactly is this going to work out when they've repeatedly shown they are not to be trusted?

If I had to guess, it will never work out, at least not in my lifetime.

 

[Prolescum]

Egads! Pages and pages of utter drivel where Dogma's Reprise attempts to justify his pathetic and entirely flaccid views.

You point out where he's wrong, he changes the subject; you pick up on one of a hundred fallacies, he ignores you until an opportunity arises to accuse you of the same (with little understanding of them - check out his Waaaaaaaaah thread on FSTDT when he starts throwing around the strawman, coincidentally I'm sure, not days after explaining it to him in one of the, I'm going to go with dozens, of his Muslim-related threads here); he came here unaware of terms like "Wahabbi", "strawman", "dominionists" and a whole host of others, and, pseud that he is, pretends they've always been a part of his argument. Funny thing is, he'll deny this despite the fact that his history here is reviewable. In his initial arguments in the Islamic conquer of Europe thread, he only talks (and talks and talks) about Muslims in general; someone mentions the Wahabbi and what do you know? He's been to Wikipedia and read the synopsis.
I especially love when he hits a point he can't counter with propaganda and concedes that you can't, say, generalise about a billion people then proceeds to directly accuse them all of adhering to one specific doctrine. Oh he'll deny it of course, but he's too blinded to realise that saying that "...such-and-such Qur'anic verses mean this" is practically the same as saying "...all Muslims believe".

His arguments still come down to "I don't like their views so they should be banned from here", which as most people know, is precisely the wrong position to take if you're attempting to stand up for "western values".

...and his tirades about "cultural relativists" are equally hilarious, because cultures are relative. That's not even mentioning his persistent use of the term "lefties" or the equivalent; you know, where he lambasts them with the vigour of a GOP supporter (with commensurate ignorance) yet claims to be somewhere in the middle.

It's beyond pathetic, it's fucking unbelievable. This kid needs to start masturbating or something. Not over Muslims, obviously. Of course, I'm only assuming he's reached puberty, and it's a long shot.

Puns.

The truth is, he's entirely irrelevant, his views are spurious, biased, inaccurate and irrelevant, his rants are as close to racism as it's possible to get without calling Muslims dirty sand-niggers (we can look through his history to see some of the descriptions he's applied to Muslims, Palestinians etc, and they ain't pretty), and it's entirely probable that the impotency he feels in his real life is the real reason he's taking it out on a bunch of people who can't fight back.

Big man with a keyboard. Tooting popular front all over again.

I mean, Palestine isn't a "real" country, so the people that live there and have done so for generations should fuck off or shut up? By that logic, black south Africans should've been shot on sight during apartheid.

Israel has an historical claim to that area? In that case, the Irish should take over Scotland and Wales, the American Indians should kick out all the descendants of the settlers, the Diego Garcians should tell America and Britain to get the fuck off their island, the Australian Aborigines should take back Australia, and Italy should take over Europe.

Palestinians hate Israelis because they took their homes away from them and continue to do so; they hate Zionists, but mostly, as one with empathy can understand, because their homes get blown up, their electric generators get blown up, their hospitals have to rely on charity, their children have to rely on charity, their crops are burned, their land is seized, and their imports are stopped at the border never to be seen again. Israelis (fewer than you'd think) hate the Palestinians because they believe their god gave them that land, because of retaliatory strikes (whether suicide bombs or stones - yes, the Israeli army has killed people for throwing stones) in otherwords, the intifadas, a bunker mentality, and the stranglehold the ultra-orthodox has over politics.

That Dogma's Reprise attempts to bolster Israel's argument (that its land is god-given) really is the ultimate irony. He deserves all the ridicule he gets.


And then there's ScrotumOpus who edits every post he's made here on practically a daily basis; how can anyone take these two seriously?

Oh wait, no one does.

Never mind.

 

[australopithecus]

For that you may marry my sister.

 

[Sandracottus]

And then there's ScrotumOpus who edits every post he's made here on practically a daily basis; how can anyone take these two seriously?

Dear Prostrate-scum

Your touching advice to me to whine somewhere else has really shaken my undercurrents.

I was thinking of a histrionic tragedy ----- ATHEISTS AND PALESTINE


All you have to do, is take some of my Pro -Palestine Atheist buddies in LoR and make a tourist visit to Palestine (Ooops....pardon me if there aint no tourism there but separated heads and trunks )....I will make a visit to Israel.

All we have to do is proclaim our faiths and strongest feelings in public


I will stand in the Jewish quarter of the old city and Proclaim ......." I HATE ISLAM. I AM A MONIST"

You guys can stand anywhere in Palestine or in the Muzzie quarter and proclaim....." WE SYMPATHIZE WITH PALESTINE . BUT GOD DOES NOT EXIST"


Lets see who comes back alive......

I will enjoy the show in Al Jazeera with the rest of the world.

DO YOU REALIZE THAT PALESTINIANS WILL PROBABLY KILL YOU FOR BEING ATHEISTS? Your drained heads will be sent home with your jugular hanging out

Inshallah

Things are much better in Indonesia.....This Indonesian atheist was sentenced to 2 1/2 years in prison for writing "God does no exist" on his Facebook page - by a country that is said to be a model example of Islam's compatibility with tolerance and pluralism

Atheists lamenting over palestine is more absurd than Jews whining over the Nazi defeat


Only one thing is more devoid of self respect.........Agnimitra continuing to post in LoR on this matter inspite of all......I forgive myself

 

[Dogma's Demise]

Oh he'll deny it of course, but he's too blinded to realise that saying that "...such-and-such Qur'anic verses mean this" is practically the same as saying "...all Muslims believe".

No, it's not, you're full of shit. Blaming the religion is not the same as blaming the people who identify with the religion. It's exactly the same thing with Christianity. I think Yahweh is an evil entity, but I don't think all Christians are stupid or evil.

I simply read the Qur'an and tell you exactly what literally it says and that includes SOME good things, I won't deny that, but it also includes sexism, supremacism and warmongering. Same with the Sunnah. And then I show you how some Muslims are using those teachings to cause suffering in the world. You don't like it? Then take it up with Mohammed and his lackeys from the 7th century, not me.

Are there genuinely peace-loving moral Muslims who don't want to impose their values on me? Sure. Do they genuinely believe Islam is a religion of peace and harmony? Sure. Do they genuinely believe there's no compulsion in Islam? Sure, and more power to them for thinking that, really, but I'm not buying it and neither are the fanatics in power in most of the Islamic world.

...and his tirades about "cultural relativists" are equally hilarious, because cultures are relative.

Yes, sexism against women for the win as long as it's a cultural thing. :roll: Amirite? :lol:

his rants are as close to racism as it's possible to get without calling Muslims dirty sand-niggers

Criticize Christian right-wing nutjobs = acceptable
Criticize Islamofascists = racism

Get lost.

That Dogma's Reprise attempts to bolster Israel's argument (that its land is god-given) really is the ultimate irony. He deserves all the ridicule he gets.

:lol: I told you before, the "promised land" argument is fucking ridiculous and you keep insisting I defend that.

If you were born in Israel, and you were a Jew who then became an atheist, seriously, who would you want to be governed by? Israel? Or, you would rather the PNA take over Israel, disband the country and have you submit to their rule (and possibly face a lot of discrimination and violence due to your Jewish background)?


Even if I believed that Israel was an illegitimate country, well it's already there and it's been there for 64 years. Most of the people involved in whatever transpired in 1948 are long gone. It's too late to undo. What do you propose we do about it? Where are you going to move 6 million Jews? Hmmm? Try to be realistic.

Besides, it's not like the entire region was designated for Israel. There were both Jews and Palestinians living there, so the UN proposed two states. The Palestinians could have had their own country by now too if not for their warmongering greedy leaders.

 

[australopithecus]

...and that's enough of that.

 

[Prolescum]

[showmore=ScrotumOpus]

And then there's ScrotumOpus who edits every post he's made here on practically a daily basis; how can anyone take these two seriously?

Dear Prostrate-scumbag

Mine is much funnier. It means "the work of balls", or colloquially, a load of bollocks.

Your touching advice to me to whine somewhere else has really shaken my undercurrents.

I will presume that's a euphemism for your moobs.

I was thinking of a histrionic tragedy ----- ATHEISTS AND PALESTINE

Big letters don't scare me, miladdo.

All you have to do, is take some of my Pro -Palestine Atheist buddies in LoR and make a tourist visit to Palestine (Ooops....pardon me if there aint no tourism there but separated heads and trunks )....I will take make a visit to Israel.

All we have to do is proclaim our faiths and strongest feelings in public

Atheist isn't a proper noun. Don't treat it like one.

Acknowledging the situation the Palestinians are in does not make one a supporter of Islam, Palestine, or indeed, anti-Israeli.

That's the problem with people like you, you can't see past the red mist. It is the sign of a weak constitution.

I will stand in the Jewish quarter of the old city and Proclaim ......." I HATE ISLAM. I AM A MONIST"

That's one hell of an ego you have there, moonshine. Swap "monist" for "self-aggrandising nationalist fool" and your description would actually reflect reality pretty well.

You guys can stand anywhere in Palestine or in the Muzzie quarter and proclaim....." WE SYMPATHIZE WITH PALESTINE . BUT GOD DOES NOT EXIST"

Muzzie? The 2012 counterpart to Gollywog.

Lets see who comes back alive......

Yes, because Muslims spend most of their free time (when not prostrating themselves across the carpet) killing strangers. It's not like they're human beings.

DO YOU REALIZE THAT PALESTINIANS WILL PROBABLY KILL YOU FOR BEING ATHEISTS?

DO YOU REALISE THAT YOU ARE MAKING STUFF UP BECAUSE YOU'RE QUITE POSSIBLY MENTALLY UNBALANCED?

Your drained heads will be sent home with your jugular hanging out

Lol, FINISH HIM!. Methinks you spend a little too much time playing Sub-Zero.

Inshallah

Mairidh.

Things are much better in Indonesia.....This Indonesian atheist was sentenced to 2 1/2 years in prison for writing "God does no exist" on his Facebook page - by a country that is said to be a model example of Islam's compatibility with tolerance and pluralism

Weasel words. By whom?

Atheists lamenting over palestine is more absurd than Jews whining over the Nazi defeat

Atheists lamenting over massive human suffering is a spear in the chest of those cunts who say atheists have no morals, compassion and empathy.

Oh, and awful Godwin. One of the limpest, in fact.

Only one thing is more devoid of self respect.........Agnimitra continuing to post in LoR on this matter inspite of all......I forgive myself

Yes, the League of Reason should promote irrationality and fantasy. Thanks for opening our eyes, kiddo.[/showmore]

[showmore=Dogma]I wonder how much of my post will be ignored...

Oh, nearly two paragraphs. That's unexpected.

Oh he'll deny it of course, but he's too blinded to realise that saying that "...such-and-such Qur'anic verses mean this" is practically the same as saying "...all Muslims believe".

No, it's not, you're full of shit.

Yes it is. If there is only the interpretation you say it has (which isn't very likely), then it follows that you believe all Muslims must believe that very thing. This is the basis for much of your argument. If the reverse were true, (that the verses are up for interpretation), then your non-issue with Christianity (and its reformation) applies to Islam. Either way, this part of your argument is fucking arse water. I mean Santorum.

Blaming the religion is not the same as blaming the people who identify with the religion.

If you truly believed this, why would you conflate as often and as much as you do? Why do you use nationalities interchangeably with religions when it suits you? Is it an inability to follow a conversation if it isn't immediate? You're not exactly careful with what you post... I'm certain I can find numerous posts where you protest your innocence immediately prior or directly after you've made a general statement about Muslims, for example. I can also find a bundle of racist-style language used by you to describe various Muslim nationalities. Assuming you're not like ScrotalHarem above and edit your posts months later.

It's exactly the same thing with Christianity. I think Yahweh is an evil entity, but I don't think all Christians are stupid or evil.

Problem is, no one believes you when it comes to Muslims; your words betray you. You need to get this through your head: we only have your words to determine your character.

I simply read the Qur'an and tell you exactly what literally it says and that includes SOME good things, I won't deny that, but it also includes sexism, supremacism and warmongering.

The entirety of human history is replete with sexism, supremacism and warmongering. Some people still wipe their arses with leaves.

Same with the Sunnah. And then I show you how some Muslims are using those teachings to cause suffering in the world. You don't like it? Then take it up with Mohammed and his lackeys from the 7th century, not me.

So any dispute with you should be taken to a higher authority on the matter? Quite right. You seem to forget that it is YOU who starts these threads, often to provoke (need I remind you of your Park 51 thread?).

Are there genuinely peace-loving moral Muslims who don't want to impose their values on me? Sure. Do they genuinely believe Islam is a religion of peace and harmony? Sure. Do they genuinely believe there's no compulsion in Islam? Sure, and more power to them for thinking that, really, but I'm not buying it and neither are the fanatics in power in most of the Islamic world.

...and you do what, precisely, to change that? Moan that their citizens are fleeing in their droves to freer lands? Catch 22, heartbreaker.

...and his tirades about "cultural relativists" are equally hilarious, because cultures are relative.

Yes, sexism against women for the win as long as it's a cultural thing. :roll: Amirite? :lol:

At what point did anyone say sexism against women is okay? Oh right, nowhere. Hear that whizzing sound? That was the point you missed.

his rants are as close to racism as it's possible to get without calling Muslims dirty sand-niggers

Criticize Christian right-wing nutjobs = acceptable
Criticize Islamofascists = racism

As you've been told again and again, what you do is so far beyond criticism it borders on racism.

Get lost.

Ha! Did you type that with your thumb in your mouth?

That Dogma's Reprise attempts to bolster Israel's argument (that its land is god-given) really is the ultimate irony. He deserves all the ridicule he gets.

:lol: I told you before, the "promised land" argument is fucking ridiculous and you keep insisting I defend that.

Ahem:

A brutal "state" run by radical Islamists and terrorists, waging the most pointless struggle in existence for a land they don't even fully have claims to (sorry guys, Jews lived in that part of the world long ago for centuries), and keeping their population in the dark ages.

If you were born in Israel, and you were a Jew who then became an atheist, seriously, who would you want to be governed by? Israel? Or, you would rather the PNA take over Israel, disband the country and have you submit to their rule (and possibly face a lot of discrimination and violence due to your Jewish background)?

Parliament.

See why people laugh at you yet? Black and white. Us and them. Binary binary binary binary binary... You don't even fucking understand western values, let alone stand up for them against the barbarians at the gate.

Even if I believed that Israel was an illegitimate country, well it's already there and it's been there for 64 years. Most of the people involved in whatever transpired in 1948 are long gone. It's too late to undo. What do you propose we do about it? Where are you going to move 6 million Jews? Hmmm? Try to be realistic.

No one proposed that, sweet cakes.

Besides, it's not like the entire region was designated for Israel. There were both Jews and Palestinians living there, so the UN proposed two states. The Palestinians could have had their own country by now too if not for their warmongering greedy leaders.

:facepalm:[/showmore]

 

[Prolescum]

Whoops. Didn't catch that. Soz.