Thunderf00t gets his own FtB blog...

[Gnug215]

Here in the U.S. the term "PC" is what right-wing bigots use to excuse their bigotry, as though being racist or sexist stops existing when they are called out on it, the claim invalidated by the invocation of "PC". So for instance Rush Limbaugh will spend several days calling a college student a prostitute with lines of customers 50-men long outside her house, because she spoke out about insurance paying for birth control pills. Ignoring the fact that using birth control doesn't require working in one of the whorehouses that Limbaugh likes to frequent, his defense to criticism consisted almost entirely on calling his critics "PC" as though otherwise people would have thought it was perfectly OK to spend four days fantasizing about a private citizen's sex life in detail.

Yeah, PC is not that here in the EU.

Here it's mostly people being silly with stuff like the "Doberman/woman" thing.

It's basically "political, insane, way-overdone-over-correctness".

 

[australopithecus]

In my experience, someone complaining about PC us usually complaining that they're not allowed to say something offensive; usually racist.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

In my experience, someone complaining about PC us usually complaining that they're not allowed to say something offensive; usually racist.

Yep. Usually racist, almost always disturbing in some way.

 

[Dragan Glas]

Okay...last time I'm going to rewrite my response. Effing browser crashed. FML.

That's why I now use Lazarus with Firefox - thanks to Inferno.

Right, so I'm totally on board with the education bit. I am of the opinion that it would serve to reduce a lot societal ailments -- especially in the US. One effect could be that it might reduce the tendency for people to be overtly prejudgemental.

However, I don't think it should come as a surprise that bigotry and sexism will always maintain presence in political/religious groups. Nor do I think the process of obtaining an education is a sure fire immunization against such tendencies. So anti-harassment policies (which you seem to view as "PC") are still important to have.

If all you were getting at was this idea of combining/expanding anti-harassment practices with education, your previous statements didn't quite read that way.

I see from where your confusion arose - and I apologise for not being clear.

I'm against a "PC" which is just "You can't say that!".

I'm for education as a means of addressing these issues - which is what public education (in America) was intended to do. To give Americans a common perspective. To help people in America to see themselves as "Americans" first, rather than white, black, etc. That's why Thomas Jefferson supported it.

However, you get the (predominantly Christian) right-wing trying to dismantle public education.

You seem a bit...everywhere on the issue, but you've mostly spent more time speaking of how unnecessary or even detrimental policies that you see as being "PC" are. Faaaah.... I think I'm done here. I hate arguing with someone who tries real hard to make some sort of dissenting statements only to find that they just agree with you in some vague manner.

As Gnug pointed out, Europeans have a different perspective on this. To us, it's unnecessary.

If you address the underlying issues, you don't need it - as I attempted to convey in a earlier post, which failed due to our differing perspectives (EU v US):

Political correctness exists where people are unable to treat each other decently in its absence.

Look at the differing attitudes to homosexuality, for example.

In the EU, homosexuals are accorded equal rights: for example, in the UK, homosexuals have the same legal rights as heterosexuals in civil unions.

In the US, there is no US-wide (federal) law for civil unions - even those states which do have civil unions/partnerships differ in what rights apply. And, needless to say, there are campaigns to get rid of such laws.

You don't get that here.

And, bear in mind, that the EU is a loosely-knit collection of states based primarily on economics - the US, on the other hand, is a political and economic union.

The latter should have a federal law on civil unions, yet does not!

What of racism?

Yes, there are issues in the EU - BUT....

When did the first black American vote in the US - despite being born a US citizen?

When did the first black British citizen vote in the UK?

Again, America is way behind on this issue - despite holding itself up as the "most democratic country (in the world)".

Australopithecus' comment really refers to those with right-wing views - neo-Nazi groups (like the National Front/British Nationalist Party in the UK, to which I've referred before) across Europe: but these are not mainstream and are, for the most part, ignored as idiots.

Sadly, the same can not be said of their counterparts in the US.

Kindest regards,

James

 

[Gnug215]

In my experience, someone complaining about PC us usually complaining that they're not allowed to say something offensive; usually racist.

Well, perhaps it's pretty much the same in the UK as the US, but here in Denmark "PC" is a bit of a joke.

Not to say that we don't have our debates about what's proper to say and the like. I mean, we were, after all, ground zero for the "Muhammed Cartoons".

I think the problem is really that the "PC" has become synonymous with being "ridiculously correct, to the point of the intended goal losing all validity and meaning".

But the fact that Dragan and I "dismiss" the term doesn't mean we dismiss everything it stands for. This is a problem with the term itself and what it has come to mean in the public debate in our respective countries, presumably.

To be sure, we have plenty problems in our country with racism, sexism, bigotry against any conceivable minority. These problems can be "generalized to an international level", but in that process they will lose a lot of complexity, because the issue will have a different face in each country.

Underlying all this is the "word wars", which seems to be raging the hardest in the US, and I am seeing a lot of problematic developments in this. Or well, maybe I shouldn't worry about it so much and just accept that this is how language works, but... some examples of problematic word use in the US is how "liberals" seems to be a swear word to a large section of the population, and an example closer to home; how "atheist" seems to be moving towards the meaning of someone who actively denies God/god/gods, ie. an active faith.

Anyway...

If I made sense here, or not, be sure to tell me.

 

[australopithecus]

Since when were you Danish? Wut?

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Since when did this turn into being about "PC" anyways? What's wrong with having an anti-harassment policy? Rules is how you deal with problems. Harassment is a problem, so we make rules to deal with it. I don't see any good-faith arguments that hold water against having policies to deal with problems.

 

[Gnug215]

Since when were you Danish? Wut?

Since never, but I live in DK and am a Danish citizen.

Why, what did you think I was?

 

[Gnug215]

Since when did this turn into being about "PC" anyways? What's wrong with having an anti-harassment policy? Rules is how you deal with problems. Harassment is a problem, so we make rules to deal with it. I don't see any good-faith arguments that hold water against having policies to deal with problems.

Well, someone brought it up, and "being against PC - somehow" was then sort of attached to Dragan and I as a highly negative, so I just wanted to clear up what PC means here.

And no, nothing wrong with having anti-harassment policies. I fully agree with you on that.

But just so we're clear, being PC has nothing to do with having good rules/anti-harassment policies in place - AT LEAST not in the public debate and mindset in Denmark.

So yeah... let's just move away from the PC discussion and back to...

.... to.... where were we now?

 

[australopithecus]

Since when were you Danish? Wut?

Since never, but I live in DK and am a Danish citizen.

Why, what did you think I was?

Some kind of Spanish. South American style. Don't ask me why, I get a Latin vibe. Like Tequila.

 

[CommonEnlightenment]

Well, someone brought it up, and "being against PC - somehow" was then sort of attached to Dragan and I as a highly negative, so I just wanted to clear up what PC means here.

And no, nothing wrong with having anti-harassment policies. I fully agree with you on that.

But just so we're clear, being PC has nothing to do with having good rules/anti-harassment policies in place - AT LEAST not in the public debate and mindset in Denmark.

So yeah... let's just move away from the PC discussion and back to...

.... to.... where were we now?

Properly defending yourself against race baiting?

 

[Gnug215]

Since never, but I live in DK and am a Danish citizen.

Why, what did you think I was?

Some kind of Spanish. South American style. Don't ask me why, I get a Latin vibe. Like Tequila.

Lol, that is so hilariously wrong.

Now I wanna know why you got that vibe.

And I don't drink so... no tequila.

 

[Gnug215]

Well, someone brought it up, and "being against PC - somehow" was then sort of attached to Dragan and I as a highly negative, so I just wanted to clear up what PC means here.

And no, nothing wrong with having anti-harassment policies. I fully agree with you on that.

But just so we're clear, being PC has nothing to do with having good rules/anti-harassment policies in place - AT LEAST not in the public debate and mindset in Denmark.

So yeah... let's just move away from the PC discussion and back to...

.... to.... where were we now?

Properly defending yourself against race baiting?

That sounds like either a humoristically snide remark, or some kind of accusation.

Care to elaborate?

 

[CommonEnlightenment]

That sounds like either a humoristically snide remark, or some kind of accusation.

Care to elaborate?

It's actually neither. I'm under the opinion that Race Baiting has become the latest fad in American politics. It's one of the major reasons as to why I severely limit my main stream media, known as MSM, in the United States.

I was actually thinking about the question that I posed in one of my earlier posts on this topic. (Can we discuss the real issue here) And I have come up with the following scenarios:

1. Racism is a real problem in America and this problem tends to be geographically (by States) distributed.
2. Race baiting a technique that is used to scare otherwise good individuals into not partaking in specific discussions because of the negative impact of being labeled a certain thing. This tends to be a real issue in the States.
3. Fear appears to be the underlining issue that propagates both one and two above.

It's really a complex issue because on one hand some people don't know when people are genuinely racist or being baited into a reverse racism type of argument. Where the individual that is actually non racist is portrayed as being the one that is causing the problem or is the issue. In most cases, I have decided to be a supporter of equal civil rights but on the other hand I will not go out of my to be an activist. I think it's a persecution issue and it's one of those things that causes a great divide on our country.

Any thoughts.... Hygentia and Joe?

 

[ImprobableJoe]

CommonEnlightenment... I don't know what you're trying to say, AGAIN. Seriously, could you like maybe give an example of what you mean, and spell out exactly what you would consider either a good or bad thing?

 

[Gnug215]

That sounds like either a humoristically snide remark, or some kind of accusation.

Care to elaborate?

It's actually neither. I'm under the opinion that Race Baiting has become the latest fad in American politics. It's one of the major reasons as to why I severely limit my main stream media, known as MSM, in the United States.

I was actually thinking about the question that I posed in one of my earlier posts on this topic. (Can we discuss the real issue here) And I have come up with the following scenarios:

1. Racism is a real problem in America and this problem tends to be geographically (by States) distributed.
2. Race baiting a technique that is used to scare otherwise good individuals into not partaking in specific discussions because of the negative impact of being labeled a certain thing. This tends to be a real issue in the States.
3. Fear appears to be the underlining issue that propagates both one and two above.

It's really a complex issue because on one hand some people don't know when people are genuinely racist or being baited into a reverse racism type of argument. Where the individual that is actually non racist is portrayed as being the one that is causing the problem or is the issue. In most cases, I have decided to be a supporter of equal civil rights but on the other hand I will not go out of my to be an activist. I think it's a persecution issue and it's one of those things that causes a great divide on our country.

Any thoughts.... Hygentia and Joe?

Ok, my bad, sorry.

I don't quit e understand "race baiting". Could you explain a bit more and maybe give an example?

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

Richard Carrier has a interesting article on his FtB blog on CFI's policy on sexual harassment, On Sexual Harassment Policies, which also contains a link to a blog post on his own thoughts about sexual harassment, along with links to a host of fellow FtB bloggers' thoughts.

Kindest regards,

James

 

[CommonEnlightenment]

Ok, my bad, sorry.

I don't quit e understand "race baiting". Could you explain a bit more and maybe give an example?

EXAMPLE #1:

Person (A) is discussing a topic about ethnic group (A). Person (A) cites a study that ethnic group (A) is 50 times more likely to experience a certain type of cancer when using some substance (A). Person (B) then claims that person (A) is racist because they are showing a correlation between a specific cancer and a substance. Person B is stating that this study is showing racial superiority/inferiority. Person B then goes on to discredit and personally attack person (A) stating that the results must be flawed because person (A) is racist.


EXAMPLE #2:

Some opponents of evolution will claim that the proponents of evolution are racist. I realize that this could be a sticky subject as some proponents of 'Social Darwinism" could in fact be racists if they try to withhold certain rights based on race alone, I'm not really talking about this issue. The issue I would like to discuss is the scenario where a group of people will try to claim that a proponent of the Theory of Evolution is a racist and therefore the Theory is wrong because only a 'racist' would believe such a thing.

Yes.... I have known some people that take the 'we share a common ancestor with apes" statement as a racially motivated statement.

In American politics you will typically see this type of scenario played out when discussing some 'hot topic' socio-economic policies.

Do these examples make sense? If not, I will try to explain further.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

CommonEnlightenment, this statement: "In American politics you will typically see this type of scenario played out when discussing some 'hot topic' socio-economic policies" has nothing to do with the examples you gave, based on my several decades of observing American politics. There's nothing "typical" about either example in my experience, so I'm going to have to ask you to show more than one person engaging in either argument who has some sort of position of power in American politics.

 

[CommonEnlightenment]

CommonEnlightenment, this statement: "In American politics you will typically see this type of scenario played out when discussing some 'hot topic' socio-economic policies" has nothing to do with the examples you gave, based on my several decades of observing American politics. There's nothing "typical" about either example in my experience, so I'm going to have to ask you to show more than one person engaging in either argument who has some sort of position of power in American politics.

I was just using those two examples as a form of 'race baiting' and not specific examples in American politics.

Watch this clip:

Example of Race Baiting by Political Pundits

Granted this problem happens on both sides, I just chose an example from MSNBC. Like I stated in a earlier post.... This is why I tend not to watch MSM.