The truth about Australian Aboriginals

[ladiesman391]

See here is the problem. Not mainstream journalism, equals non verifiable sources which brings suspect evidence.

Their evidence is not suspect if you actually read the articles you'll see they comment and provide an alternative view on a mainstream article that has been credibly published with verifiable evidence. So if anything it's not their evidence that is in-credible but their opinion.

No... What I said was a way to distinguish between the Aboriginal Australians and the Other Australians who come under many different shades. Insulting? You said far more demeaning things about the aborigines than me calling you an immigrant... Quite the double standards mate.

Quote me....

It's the fault of a people who were in the height of wood and stone technology who were abused and systematically destroyed by white people because of their skin colour and their relative disparateness and treated like animals well into the 1960s...

You have had no special treatment because of your skin but they have had mistreatment for theirs. And that kind of logic is dumb and goes down a terrible route.

You keep looking back to the past whilst I acknowledge it and look to the future. Just to add I've personally been racially abused by Aboriginals yet I've never racially abused them back.

They are druggies and alcies for the same reason that hobos are druggies and alcies... Because they got nothing to live for. They seek escape.

Thats a bit of an over generalisation, and I also think you should add some evidence to support that statement....

The money is so that they don't freaking starve and so you don't have a second underclass of people who will fester. It's called a socially responsible government.

Even with all this money they still are a second underclass, have you read an article discussing life expectancy and general health comparing that of Aboriginals to non-aboriginals?

"Aboriginal people can expect to live up to twenty years less than non-Indigenous Australians. Indigenous life expectancy is so low because Aboriginal health standards in Australia are now so bad that 45% of Aboriginal men and 34% of women die before the age of 45. 71% die before they reach the age of 65.

According to the United Nations, the quality of life of Aboriginal people is the second worst of the planet,only China rates worse." - http://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/health/aboriginal-life-expectancy.html

Yes. It shows acceptance of a flaw. It shows an understanding of history and a willingness to realise that you came from the baddies.

My parents and grandparents had nothing to do with Australian politics.... Again that's insulting me and my family.

And it means prior to the 1970s Aborigines were treated with no basic human rights and people saw them as Not Human. You expect people to change? Black people to this day in the US aren't seen as equals and India got its independance in the freaking 1940s and still have to face racism in the UK. It's not an instantaneous thing, particularly considering some of the statements you have made which if you replace aborigine with Jew or African would get you the label of Nazi/White Supremacist.

Again you're looking back to the past. And yes it's not going to be instantaneous but it there needs to be a push to look forward to the future rather than bringing up the problems of the past as being the reason for the problems of today, it's the same as grieving the loss of a loved one.

You have had no special treatment because of your skin but they have had mistreatment for theirs. And that kind of logic is dumb and goes down a terrible route.

Slippery slope argument. What I mean is if you have two people born into the same country with the same opportunity and one takes that opportunity and the other doesn't, is it the fault of the society that one took it and one didn't, or the fault of the individual?

 

[Breakyerself]

I think you're a fucking racist. These problems the aborigines have are the cause of racist white people. There's no excuse for rape, but it sounds like a population of destitute people with not much to live for. I wonder how that happened.

 

[nasher168]

My parents and grandparents had nothing to do with Australian politics.... Again that's insulting me and my family.

Like it or not, your ancestors probably had something to do with the racism back when Australia was just getting off the ground. Certainly they were immigrants. It's nothing to be offended about.
I fully accept that my ancestors could well have been in with the "bad guys" at various points in history. Chances are some of them were plantation owners in the US.

 

[Giliell]

That's correct but why are they seeking an apology from someone such as myself who was born in 1984? Or the current prime minister who was born 1957 and would have been 12 when the problem ceased? Would you seek an apology from the son or daughter of a man who stole from you or raped you? It's only a small minority of the aboriginal population that was affected by this, not every Aboriginal was removed from their parents....

My eyes hurt from reading stupid.
Yes, our ancestors killed your ancestors, took all your valuable land, raped your women, stole your children, but I wasn't born then so now get over with it and let me keep what my paople stole from your people.
Can't you people ever get over it?

Yes, I can totally see why Australian aboriginals still feel to be badly treated by the whites and why they're pretty reluctant about accepting common western values and principles even though those might just be simply "human rights" (like not being raped)
If wrong becomes irrelevant after a mere generation, why make the distinction between right and wrong anyway?

 

[ladiesman391]

I've said everything I'm going to say on this thread, I've made my position on the issue quite clear and I understand first hand what these issues are (unlike the rest of you who have posted here, except for WOlfAU), so feel free to indulge in a little argument between yourselves.

 

[Fullmetalgeneticist]

See here is the problem. Not mainstream journalism, equals non verifiable sources which brings suspect evidence.

Their evidence is not suspect if you actually read the articles you'll see they comment and provide an alternative view on a mainstream article that has been credibly published with verifiable evidence. So if anything it's not their evidence that is in-credible but their opinion.

Quote me....

I live about 10 mins away from that camp (which has since been closed down but the shitty buildings they lived in are still erect), there are many many more of these camps around the outskirts of the major cities and as I mentioned before it filters into "normal" society

Normal society?

I play AFL for a local team and thankfully we have no Aboriginals on our team, however the opposition had about 5 on theirs. The one's that are well disciplined and respectful can be very good AFL players (good natural ability as you rely on instinct). The players they had were ill-disciplined and disrespectful,

I am sorry, one of your white AFL players just racially abused an Indian taxi driver... Should I start regarding white people I meet as disciplined and respectful and can be very good IT specialists but those were ill disciplined and disrespectful? No cause that's judging someone based on their race.

People are different, you just classified them by race.

I also have some friends here who just moved over from New Zealand not long ago and one of the first encounters they had with Aborigines was in a bank where a 4 or 5 year old Aboriginal child (with his family present) pulled down his pants and started pissing inside the bank against a wall, and nobody said anything (probably because they were scared of them)!

More hearsay? I have australian friends who say that doesn't happen. I know a fair few.

One of my fiance's best friends was driving down a local street near her home and she witnessed what appeared to be a 9 or 10 year old girl being forced, by a much older Aboriginal man, to give him a headjob! I'm not making this shit up Jacob, there is a problem here and in most other major cities but I'm assuming no-one in other parts of the world hears about it because it's not very good for tourism, or our international image. If you want to look at a controversial attempt by the government in the 70's to help rectify this problem check out the "Stolen Generations".

Controvertial? It was fucking kidnapping on the basis of you could breed out the aboriginals/convert them to be good christians. It's like saying slavery of black people was a controvertial way of solving the manpower crisis...

You keep looking back to the past whilst I acknowledge it and look to the future. Just to add I've personally been racially abused by Aboriginals yet I've never racially abused them back.

Well good for you mate. But that's like saying "well Sorry I murdered your son 10 years ago, but stop looking into the past!" Crime was commited, injustice was done. The past is important for the future. If you have zero understanding of the past you don't know where people's attitudes and ideas come from.

Thats a bit of an over generalisation, and I also think you should add some evidence to support that statement....

The drugs of choice seem to be solvent abuse and heroin and alcohol... None of these drugs are abused by happy well balanced people. Mostly its stressed people for alcohol/people with time to kill (AKA homeless). Heroin and Solvents are loved by the people who want to escape. You rarely find grant fun heroin users or rich kids sniffing glue since they can afford more "fun drugs".

Even with all this money they still are a second underclass, have you read an article discussing life expectancy and general health comparing that of Aboriginals to non-aboriginals?

Yes because of poverty, lack of job opportunities and lack of healthcare initiatives in their communities. Also there are people with lower life expectancies and qualities like Africa... China has a fairly decent primary healthcare initiative.

My parents and grandparents had nothing to do with Australian politics.... Again that's insulting me and my family.

*thump* no it is not. That's like saying my family had a lot to do with the current state of India (which it did since a lot of the problems were caused by people like us). We don't hide the fact we were not the good guys. Times are changed and we do a lot of work to help people out now. However what we were will never change. Just because YOU personally weren't part of the dealie doesn't mean you didn't benefit from it.

Again you're looking back to the past. And yes it's not going to be instantaneous but it there needs to be a push to look forward to the future rather than bringing up the problems of the past as being the reason for the problems of today, it's the same as grieving the loss of a loved one.

No, there needs to be reconcilliation for you to push forwards. Sorry mate, sometimes people do bad things. You can't be the good guys all the time. You were the bad guys in the treatment of the aboriginals and only recently have they had a fair few things like their cultural importance being recognised. You see similar trends in Native Americans in the US who suffered from a lot of the same problems until recently. It takes time, it takes effort and most of all it takes admitting that the status quo was at fault and really hasn't done much to extend a hand of equality/deal with the problems facing them beyond your snap reactions.

Slippery slope argument. What I mean is if you have two people born into the same country with the same opportunity and one takes that opportunity and the other doesn't, is it the fault of the society that one took it and one didn't, or the fault of the individual?

What if one person had half the opportunity and achieved the same. Since that individual put up double the effort to get to your standard shouldn't he get the the reward? And the opportunities are obviously not the same if an entire subgroup of people aren't doing as well. And welcome to the concept of society. Sometimes people dont' pull their weight. If you want to live in a darwinian libertarian society, try Somalia where not carrying your weight gets you killed. There will always be someone not working. And honestly by your logic since I am disabled I have had less opportunities than you, therefore I have put up more work since my base starting line is lower just to get to your level and demand a shinier reward...

Your not having the same opporunities when you just pointed out that they have a massive problem with poverty and drug abuse. Those aren't easy things to kick you know. Else we would all be millionaires.

 

[ladiesman391]

Your not having the same opporunities when you just pointed out that they have a massive problem with poverty and drug abuse. Those aren't easy things to kick you know. Else we would all be millionaires.

They do have a massive problem with drugs, alcohol, rape, health, education and poverty and whose fault is it? Everyones. If i'm at fault then I guess you're at fault too, so what can we do to curb these problems? Admitting they have a problem is the first step....

 

[Fullmetalgeneticist]

They were being horribly fucked over in the 70s... Since then the amount of effort the Australian government has put into equalise the gap between the people they were fucking over for lolz (since there really isn't anything they have that we want unlike the Native Americans) was quite negligible until the 1990s. So its in the 90s where everything kicked off. You can't go from second class citizen to equal in 10 years. It takes years and years of work.

If its the 1970s we are talking about, its your parents generation that was fucked over. If you come from a stage that is fucked over you have a starting baseline that is poor. You are talking about initiatives that affect people now and will affect the coming generation, not the previous ones.

I mean saying past is past is well and good if none of the people affected by the past are alive. Not if they are still around.

And people have problems with alcohol and drugs for different reasons. Being aboriginal is not a reason to have said problems.

 

[Aught3]

I think we have similar (but not as severe) problems in New Zealand. Maori are over-represented in crime, drug, and health statistics. It's very hard to say whether someone is better or worse off because of what happened to their ancestors, I support some of the reparations and attempts at equalising but I also think that some of them go to far. It's very challenging to figure out the best action to take.

 

[ladiesman391]

And people have problems with alcohol and drugs for different reasons. Being aboriginal is not a reason to have said problems.

I found this short article on Aboriginal social drinking habits:

http://blogs.abc.net.au/queensland/2008/09/indigenous-drin.html

 

[Fullmetalgeneticist]

And people have problems with alcohol and drugs for different reasons. Being aboriginal is not a reason to have said problems.

I found this short article on Aboriginal social drinking habits:

http://blogs.abc.net.au/queensland/2008/09/indigenous-drin.html

Which seems to agree with my point that they can handle alcohol responsibly but don't since they cannot get a beer normally so binge drink in the countryside. You see that kind of behaviour in school kids. Being aboriginal is not the root cause of their behaviour, not being given equal rights due to some mythical concept of being "unable to hold their beer" seems to be the cause campaigned for by this article...

 

[nasher168]

Being aboriginal is not the root cause of their behaviour

Absolutely.
It seems to me ladiesman391 that your position is that you want to limit all Aboriginals' rights because a lot of them cause problems. If that is not your position then I apologise, but that's how it comes across.
The correct way to go about it is to get rid of ALL segregation. That means no separate schools, no towns built deliberately for aboriginal use, no extra rights for either side. It sounds a little extreme, but I think this is a problem caused by segregation, a little bit like in Northern Ireland. Eliminate segregation and the problems will be gone in a little over a generation.
Also, education is an absolute must. I can't see why all governments don't see this. Education should be top priority for all countries. It is certainly more important than defence and possibly even more important than healthcare. More intelligence means less crime, drugs, drinking problems etc.

 

[Marcus]

It seems to me ladiesman391 that your position is that you want to limit all Aboriginals' rights because a lot of them cause problems. If that is not your position then I apologise, but that's how it comes across.

WTF? Sorry, but that's not how I read it - he's just saying that being Aboriginal shouldn't be an excuse for letting them get away with crimes that would have non-Aboriginals locked up.

 

[ladiesman391]

he's just saying that being Aboriginal shouldn't be an excuse for letting them get away with crimes that would have non-Aboriginals locked up.

That's true especially in reference to the earlier articles I posted about rape and sexual assault in Aboriginal communities where the men would admit the abuse yet they were not reprimanded for it because there is parts of their culture that have been twisted to accept this type of behaviour from Aboriginal males. Had that been me and one of my friends on a bus boasting about what we had done on Australian soil we'd be locked up within the week.

So when we talk of equality a choice needs to be made by both Aboriginals and non-aboriginals of which laws are to be followed and obeyed.

The underlying issue I have is the lack of rights for women and children in some Aboriginal communities (this was a partial reason given by the government for the implementation of the "Stolen generation" policy and there was evidence to support that position but they went about it with too much aggression and a lack of inter-cultural communication), BTW this type of policy exists within western cultures today where children are removed from abusive or unfit parents by child protective services yet there are no claims of stolen generations there....

Due to the fact the major cities and non-Aboriginals are here to stay for good, the government and Aboriginal community leaders need to determine a set of equal rights for both Aboriginals and non-Aboriginals alike and move forward with this type of plan, rather than using the institutionally racist tactics the Government currently uses, for example they have the first question to every Bank Loan application form, Welfare assistance form, School/University application form and any other form you can possibly think of as "Are you an Aboriginal or Torres Straight Islander?". I'm sure it's regarded as fact that people will find a greater sense of pride and achievement (and ego) in earning something for themselves rather than having it be handed to them. If the Aboriginal people can't respect themselves (which may be hard for them to do with recent history and current lack of faith in their people by the Government) then they will never respect anyone else.

If Aboriginals and non-Aboriginals have no interest in reconciliation and equality right across the board (no special privileges, treatment or benefits for Aboriginals or non-Aboriginals alike) and leaders from both sides continually try to segregate or favour people based on their race (as they currently do) then we will get nowhere, nothing will change.

 

[Cnidarious]

we have similar issues in canada in certain places.

Race oriented crimes seem abundant where ever there is a large enough native population in
colonial countries.