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The How and Why Of Self-Consciousness "Sticky Please"

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arg-fallbackName="A Higher Enlightenment"/>
Hey there Higher!

So, I'm just wondering what - exactly - you were hoping to achieve with the opening post?("OP" henceforth)


Would I be somewhat accurate if I were to say that so far the replies have showed little to no good understanding of what you were trying to say?
Although very disjointed and I realize this. The OP was not necessarily an argument. But rather multiple questions, what does consciousness and self-conciousness require? And what are the connections between the two.
 
arg-fallbackName="*SD*"/>
Although very disjointed and I realize this. The OP was not necessarily an argument. But rather multiple questions, what does consciousness and self-conciousness require? And what are the connections between the two.

Ok, good, this is much better. Now that we're on track, as far as I'm aware consciousness is an emergent property of brains and is still ill defined and not very well understood. What is the distinction you think exists between consciousness, and self-consciousness? Do you mean the ability to have introspective thoughts?
 
arg-fallbackName="A Higher Enlightenment"/>
Ok, good, this is much better. Now that we're on track, as far as I'm aware consciousness is an emergent property of brains and is still ill defined and not very well understood. What is the distinction you think exists between consciousness, and self-consciousness? Do you mean the ability to have introspective thoughts?
Glad this conversation is on the right track!

As as far as I am concerned, I think the ability to have introspective thoughts are a small portion of the pie. From my understanding these alone, won't give rise to self consciousness.

Animals are a well defined example, as they have introspection with some mental properties to some degree. Is this not away to be aware of its self, rather than self conscious.

Just because they are awake/conscious does not mean they understand or are conscious of that.

What about the ability to differentiate between dreams and reality, would this not give rise to being conscious of being awake if you are now conscious that you were once asleep?
 
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arg-fallbackName="creativesoul"/>
Glad this conversation is on the right track!

As as far as I am concerned, I think the ability to have introspective thoughts are a small portion of the pie. From my understanding these alone, won't give rise to self consciousness.

If introspective thoughts won't give rise to self consciousness then what will?

What is the difference - exactly - between consciousness and self consciousness if not introspective thoughts?
 
arg-fallbackName="A Higher Enlightenment"/>
If introspective thoughts won't give rise to self consciousness then what will?

What is the difference - exactly - between consciousness and self consciousness if not introspective thoughts?
A heightened sense of awareness is this not consciousness? We could agree this takes introspective thoughts. But the difference from the two requires a certain level of intelligence accompanied by a higher consciousness for Self-Consciousness to arise.

Reflective consciousness/consciousness
This indeed requires some form of awareness itself. It is however entirely possible to have the capacity for reflective consciousness, but inadvertently fail to put it into practice.

Self consciousness requires some awareness of the awareness itself.
But what does this require?
 
arg-fallbackName="creativesoul"/>
Animals are a well defined example, as they have introspection with some mental properties to some degree. Is this not away to be aware of its self, rather than self conscious.

See the words "rather than" up there?

What are they doing? They are being used to indicate a distinction between being self aware and being self conscious. They are lending support to claiming that an animal can have introspection including being aware of itself and yet still not be self conscious.

How are these words(being self aware and being self conscious) not picking out the very same thing? Seems to me like they are; that it's just two different ways to say the same thing.
 
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arg-fallbackName="*SD*"/>
Glad this conversation is on the right track!

Same.

As as far as I am concerned, I think the ability to have introspective thoughts are a small portion of the pie. From my understanding these alone, won't give rise to self consciousness.

I'm still not sure what the distinction you're drawing is between consciousness and self-consciousness. Could you explain this please?

Animals are a well defined example, as they have introspection with some mental properties to some degree. Is this not away to be aware of its self, rather than self conscious.

Which animals and in what regard? How is this determined?

Just because they are awake/conscious does not mean they understand or are conscious of that.

Ok, so how could we check whether <said animals> are or are not? Is this falsifiable?

What about the ability to differentiate between dreams and reality, would this not give rise to being conscious of being awake if you are now conscious that you were once asleep?

This is a much more interesting question, at least as per my own personal intrigues.
 
arg-fallbackName="creativesoul"/>
A heightened sense of awareness is this not consciousness? We could agree this takes introspective thoughts. But the difference from the two requires a certain level of intelligence accompanied by a higher consciousness for Self-Consciousness to arise.

Reflective consciousness/consciousness
This indeed requires some form of awareness itself. It is however entirely possible to have the capacity for reflective consciousness, but inadvertently fail to put it into practice.

Self consciousness requires some awareness of the awareness itself.
But what does this require?
Adding more abstract concepts does not help matters. We already have enough.

The task - currently - is defining consciousness and self-consciousness with a particular interest being upon the exact difference between the two.
 
arg-fallbackName="creativesoul"/>
What about the ability to differentiate between dreams and reality, would this not give rise to being conscious of being awake if you are now conscious that you were once asleep?

This is a much more interesting question, at least as per my own personal intrigues.

Being conscious that you were once asleep, IS being conscious of being awake, which IS the ability to differentiate between being awake and being asleep.
 
arg-fallbackName="A Higher Enlightenment"/>
I'm still not sure what the distinction you're drawing is between consciousness and self-consciousness. Could you explain this please?
From my understanding it takes being aware of the awareness itself.
Which animals and in what regard? How is this determined?
Good question! What about any extremely social animals, like Dogs for example.
Ok, so how could we check whether <said animals> are or are not? Is this falsifiable?
To be quite honest I am not sure that we can check for this not to my knowledge at least. Unless the animal could somehow speak language to express this, we could have a deeper understanding then.
 
arg-fallbackName="A Higher Enlightenment"/>
I needed to Google the list i only knew 1, 4 and 6 but these animals have self consciousnesses.
  1. Humans
  2. Orangutans
  3. Chimpanzees
  4. Gorillas
  5. Bottlenose Dolphins
  6. Elephants
  7. Orcas
  8. Bonobos
  9. Rhesus Macaques
  10. European Magpies
It’s fascinating isn’t it? But why have these animals evolved in a way that other animals have not. What if they have developed something over time something we all have as humans? Could it be personality maybe?

“The idea that nonhuman animals have unique personalities stems from the (evolutionary continuity) that exists between humans and other species”

Personality: ones characteristics and qualities that help define one as a unique individual. This takes a different form of thinking and would require a higher form of intelligence.

Elephants can recognize themselves in the mirror.And are indeed self-conscious, consciousness does not require personality. Trees are alive and are aware of being cut, but have no personality.

But I think self-consciousness requires personality.

And I think personality is a direct result of being able to reflect on life experiences to understand them and to be aware that you are aware of them.
 
arg-fallbackName="*SD*"/>
To be quite honest I am not sure that we can check for this not to my knowledge at least. Unless the animal could somehow speak language to express this, we could have a deeper understanding then.

Yes, this is exactly the problem, which is why I think we need to be very careful about making declarative statements along the lines of "X animal does not have Y cognitive capacity" etc. Not implying anyone here said that, but I know of plenty of people who will.

And you are correct, short of making a verbal inquiry (which is obviously not possible, well, you can make the verbal or otherwise inquiry of the animal but there should be no realistic expectation of an answer) I don't see a way to test this. If it can't be tested then it's unfalsifiable by very definition.
 
arg-fallbackName="creativesoul"/>
what does consciousness and self-conciousness require? And what are the connections between the two.

So, in an attempt to answer this question, we've spoken about or at least mentioned things like introspective thoughts, awareness, higher intelligence, personality, being aware of having been sleeping, being aware of being aware, etc. The first suggestion was that introspective thought was the difference between consciousness and self-consciousness.

You've denied that introspective thought was enough for self-consciousness, claiming that animals were 'a clearly defined' example of something having introspective thought but not having self-consciousness. When pressed on this matter though, it turns out that your claims about animals are what we call gratuitous assertions. That is, only to say that - thus far - they have not been properly argued for. Now, do not get me wrong, this is not necessarily a problem - especially at this juncture - because we're very early on in the discussion. However - and this is key - if a claim cannot be verified/falsified, then it must be a rational one at a bare minimum. It must be a valid conclusion following from a major(primary) and a minor(secondary) premiss. That's what logical arguments are all about. That is especially true when one denies the very definition of a commonly used notion such as "introspective thoughts". These are thoughts that an individual has about themselves. One cannot have thoughts about oneself without being aware of oneself.

So, either being aware of oneself is not equivalent to self-awareness(which is absurd to put it mildly) or self awareness is not equivalent to self-consciousness. It seems that you're claiming the latter - that self-consciousness requires being aware that one is aware of oneself as compared/contrasted to just being aware of oneself.

Would you agree with this summary, thus far?
 
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