Testimony

[Anachronous Rex]

Something supernatural happened to me that night. The Lord spoke and He told me what I was. I don't believe I heard an audible voice, yet He spoke. How do I explain this? It was an intense experience. It was as if another person had invaded my mind and He was saying I was in a desperate situation. It wasn't that I had messed up, it was that I had never done anything but mess up. My very nature was vile. I couldn't stop thinking about it! He would not leave me alone.

I was sure to say that I did not hear an audible voice but I did say that another person had invaded my mind and I can see why this is disturbing. That being said Im just being honest. It was as if something outside of myself was reminding me of all the wrong I had done in my life. There was this internal battle waging as I tried to convince myself that I was a good person but the Holy Spirit unveiled my true nature. Theologically this is called repentance although I didnt know what was happening then.

I like what I heard a man say one time, "There are three choices: Im mad man, Im lying, or what Im saying is the truth."

Im either a crazy person or I really do have a personal relationship with God. All I know for sure is that night a light came on and now I genuinely care about living a good life.

And as LRkun said, are you questioning your beliefs in any way?

I take this to mean am I doubting my beliefs, and if thats it then no Im not. I sense this may be a loaded question to find out if Im here to just preach at people. No Im not here to do that either, I enjoy getting to know people and finding out there opinions on things. I know so far I seem to be sock puppeting and not really engaging in conversation, I want to work on changing that.

The argument from personal experience is probably the best justification for Theism... albeit not a justification that is in any way demonstrable or compelling to individuals outside of the one in question (nor should it be.)

That said, there are some significant problems with such things. AronRa has a video which sums them up nicely in the first few minutes:



You will have to excuse, of course, that it is addressed against creationists. You are, to my knowledge, not a creationist, and I would hate to do you a disservice in this regard. Indeed, that you make - from what I can tell - few further claims beyond your experience is laudable. I do, in fact, believe you that this was a real experience. The conclusions that you have drawn from it seem shoddy... but I don't doubt the experience.

 

[blood_pardon]

What she meant was - do you ever think about the validity of your beliefs?

Like I said Im either a mad man or the Spirit of God really does indwell me.
I'll give you an example of this on going relationship: Last night I remember standing outside the hotel where my wife works and praying "Lord what do I have to do to please you? What do I have to do to grow as a Christian?" This morning I was planning on going to this church down the street that starts at 9:30 but for some reason my wife decided she was going to go ahead and go to church with me and so because of our work schedules we had to go to this other church a couple miles away that started at 8. The message was on what pleases God (which is faith) and for the next six weeks this church is going to be doing a study on how to grow faith.

What i think was happening to you is that a collection of memories was being observed critically by the executive function of your brain according to the newly acquired value-system of Christianity.

I think I was being supernaturally regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

Right, your perspective of life changed. You do have a personal relationship with "God". And it's crucial that you don't misinterpret your experience, that you don't mistake "God" for a supernatural yet objective existence, for a thing out there separate from the natural world. God is a natural process of which you are. God does not "speak to" you; God does you, and you do God, through the deepest appreciation of reality

Or God is a person and He does speak to me.

You are, to my knowledge, not a creationist, and I would hate to do you a disservice in this regard. Indeed, that you make - from what I can tell - few further claims beyond your experience is laudable. I do, in fact, believe you that this was a real experience. The conclusions that you have drawn from it seem shoddy... but I don't doubt the experience.

I am a creationist

 

[Nautyskin]

What she meant was - do you ever think about the validity of your beliefs?

Like I said Im either a mad man or the Spirit of God really does indwell me.

Or you're mistaken, and draw some rather unjustifiable conclusions from everyday events. Case in point:

I'll give you an example of this on going relationship: Last night I remember standing outside the hotel where my wife works and praying "Lord what do I have to do to please you? What do I have to do to grow as a Christian?" This morning I was planning on going to this church down the street that starts at 9:30 but for some reason my wife decided she was going to go ahead and go to church with me and so because of our work schedules we had to go to this other church a couple miles away that started at 8. The message was on what pleases God (which is faith) and for the next six weeks this church is going to be doing a study on how to grow faith.

I look at that and go 'so what?' Something that hundreds of churches do annually, and which you happened to catch the start of, is not evidence of a creator any more than me finding my car keys is evidence of an all-knowing unseen maid.

Let's take this a little further, and ask the question: If god has the time to set up such a convenient series of events for you, why can't he set up a coincidence where starving africans find food? Where a girl chained up as a sex slave finds her chains loose enough to squeeze out of, and the door to her dungeon unlocked so she can run for help? Or a coincidence where a scientist finds the cure for cancer or AIDS? Is he SO busy making sure YOU find a goddamn fucking faith study group that he doesn't have the time to do these things?

I suggest you take a bit of time to think about that.

 

[Anachronous Rex]

You are, to my knowledge, not a creationist, and I would hate to do you a disservice in this regard. Indeed, that you make - from what I can tell - few further claims beyond your experience is laudable. I do, in fact, believe you that this was a real experience. The conclusions that you have drawn from it seem shoddy... but I don't doubt the experience.

I am a creationist

Not to put too fine a point on it but, whatever you might think about god, creationism is untenable, intellectually unjustifiable, and downright dishonest.

I suggest you re-examine this position.

 

[Yfelsung]

Well, I read the story, the person mentions hearing voices and sometimes seeing stuff, that's schizophrenia or, at the very least, delusion.

That's just a "religious experience" (wikipedia article sucks on this one, the thing is, it's a semi-rigorous term from anthropology). I've had one. I'm not a schizophrenic.

You may not be schizophrenic, but if you've had a "religious experience" while not under the influence of a drug, then you're at least delusional as far as I'm concerned.

If you see or hear things that are not there, this is not good.

 

[Anachronous Rex]

That's just a "religious experience" (wikipedia article sucks on this one, the thing is, it's a semi-rigorous term from anthropology). I've had one. I'm not a schizophrenic.

You may not be schizophrenic, but if you've had a "religious experience" while not under the influence of a drug, then you're at least delusional as far as I'm concerned.

If you see or hear things that are not there, this is not good.

Actually the occasional hallucination seems to be well within the 'normal' range. Feel free to discount me as I, at the moment, cannot seem to find my source on this... but from what I understand there are several areas of the brain that are easily overstimulated and, if overstimulated, tend to produce false sensation. I myself was once able to hallucinate consciously by employing something called 'candlelight meditation;' nothing spectacular mind you, I was merely able to split one flame into five (which naturally is something your eyes cannot physically do.)

Also, of course, people regularly "see or hear things that are not there" while dreaming; an altered state of consciousness, but an entirely natural one. And one that sometimes activates an inappropriate times as well.

Given this, we really should expect one or two random hallucinations at some point in people's lives, if not more.

 

[mirandansa]

What i think was happening to you is that a collection of memories was being observed critically by the executive function of your brain according to the newly acquired value-system of Christianity.

I think I was being supernaturally regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

What does "being supernaturally regenerated" mean? Here's my guess:

1. You assume you have a "supernatural soul" that somehow serves as the basis for your subjective experience including cognition.
2. You believe that the cognitive change you have gone through is because of the alteration of this "soul".
3. You then logically conclude that the change must be supernatural since the "soul" is supernatural.

The reasoning is ok. The assumption is bad. You don't have to assume you have a "supernatural soul" in order to explain your cognition. Cognition is a natural phenomenon. Your immaterial subjective experience always correlates with a material objective process within the natural Cosmos. The immaterial and the material are different but inseparable representational modes of reality, and they are both thus natural.

Right, your perspective of life changed. You do have a personal relationship with "God". And it's crucial that you don't misinterpret your experience, that you don't mistake "God" for a supernatural yet objective existence, for a thing out there separate from the natural world. God is a natural process of which you are. God does not "speak to" you; God does you, and you do God, through the deepest appreciation of reality

Or God is a person and He does speak to me.

You have misidentified the nature of the interior voice. The interior voice is a thought, a body of sequenced information that circulates within a cognitive system, namely "you". You observed this flow of information and then misinterpreted its origin with the myth-oriented framework of Christianity that does not warrant the harmony between subjectivity and objectivity.

 

[Yfelsung]

You may not be schizophrenic, but if you've had a "religious experience" while not under the influence of a drug, then you're at least delusional as far as I'm concerned.

If you see or hear things that are not there, this is not good.

Actually the occasional hallucination seems to be well within the 'normal' range. Feel free to discount me as I, at the moment, cannot seem to find my source on this... but from what I understand there are several areas of the brain that are easily overstimulated and, if overstimulated, tend to produce false sensation. I myself was once able to hallucinate consciously by employing something called 'candlelight meditation;' nothing spectacular mind you, I was merely able to split one flame into five (which naturally is something your eyes cannot physically do.)

Also, of course, people regularly "see or hear things that are not there" while dreaming; an altered state of consciousness, but an entirely natural one. And one that sometimes activates an inappropriate times as well.

Given this, we really should expect one or two random hallucinations at some point in people's lives, if not more.

True enough, I actually have a form of psychosis that causes my brain to dream while I'm awake so even I have hallucinated... but I know they're hallucinations.

I understand that they are delusions and at the time I experienced them I was delusional.

So to rephrase my comment, if you see and hear things that aren't there but believe they are really there, then that's not good.

 

[mirandansa]

If you see or hear things that are not there, this is not good.

Do you see solid things with little space in them? If so, that must be "not good", according to you. Because atoms are 99.999...% space, and the rest is nothing but non-solid energy.

And you apparently believe "solid things" are really there when you say "we are nothing but meat bags".

 

[borrofburi]

What she meant was - do you ever think about the validity of your beliefs?

Like I said Im either a mad man or the Spirit of God really does indwell me.

This is a false dichotomy. One wrong belief does not a madman make. By this logic, everyone who is not a christian, but who is religious in some way, are ALL mad men.

 

[Story]

This is a false dichotomy. One wrong belief does not a madman make. By this logic, everyone who is not a christian, but who is religious in some way, are ALL mad men.

Like I said Im either a mad man or the Spirit of God really does indwell me.

Yes... I was about to say the same thing.

You're using a fallacious argument to support your belief, which is understandable we all do that sometimes, but doesn't hold up.

If we take your example and hypothetically say that you're not a mad man, then we would all have to agree that God actually exists, but this makes no sense, because god's existence can't depend on your sanity, nor does the idea predict or require you to have a intelligent mind, it may very well be that what we call "insanity" is what God uses to guide his followers, so the better conclusion would be that you are insane. If we were to hypothetically say that you were insane, we would conclude that god's existence still remains a mystery and also that you wouldn't be aware of your own insanity, which you clearly aren't. This conclusion better fits the circumstances.

However we can be fair and honest and tell you that we don't believe you're insane (as far as we can tell), but we also know that a person does not have to be insane to experience delusions. Many of us here have experienced delusions and don't consider ourselves insane (I used to cry to god in fear and love for him and beg him to guide and show me the right way, he didn't).

You really have to define what insane is to be able to even argue this point. Do you believe that experiencing delusions from time to time is insanity? If so, do you consider all the people that are not a part of your religion to be insane? Do you consider people that are a part of a obscure cult/sect of your religion to be insane?

Do you really understand the corollary propositions you suppose with your logic?

I'll give you an example of this on going relationship: Last night I remember standing outside the hotel where my wife works and praying "Lord what do I have to do to please you? What do I have to do to grow as a Christian?" This morning I was planning on going to this church down the street that starts at 9:30 but for some reason my wife decided she was going to go ahead and go to church with me and so because of our work schedules we had to go to this other church a couple miles away that started at 8. The message was on what pleases God (which is faith) and for the next six weeks this church is going to be doing a study on how to grow faith.

These kinds of coincidences still happen to me although I'm no longer religious. I'd want something to happen and it'd happen, because I wanted it too, but the problem with this is that we always remember the times that it does work, but we never remember the millions of times it doesn't.

Try asking for something less selfish, like Millions of starving Africans to be relieved of their excruciating circumstances...

I used to ask for those kinds of things all the time, one time a very specific thing I asked for happened and came on the news the next few days in the exact order I asked for it. Why do you think that happened?

Were my prayers answered? or was it a coincidence? If my prayers were answered, then why am I an atheist now?

 

[Andiferous]

Irony scares me a lot more than god, the devil, or Jason with a chainsaw. You've all made so many great points.

You really have to define what insane is to be able to even argue this point. Do you believe that experiencing delusions from time to time is insanity? If so, do you consider all the people that are not a part of your religion to be insane? Do you consider people that are a part of a obscure cult/sect of your religion to be insane?

Consider the scary prospect "It takes one to know one." There's a horrible fragment of truth in that.

Maybe if we are all insane we can all collectively call ourselves sane.

So, how we can we recognise we're having a hallucination if we've never experienced an hallucination?

I'm a bit worried here that I'm putting forth questions that may curse you to a self-fulfilling prophesy. I hate you, irony.

 

[Yfelsung]

As an aside:

Jason wasn't into chainsaws, he was usually into machetes and the occasional sharp spear like object.

Leatherface was a chainsaw man.

 

[lrkun]

Let us not describe the thread starter as insane. Such is too harsh, however it may be true that we're thinking it, and likewise we're laughing or mocking at his post, but doing so does disservice to logic. It is an argument against the man, which consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the source making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.

The better term that describes the thread starters experience is Escapism, incidentally it makes him an escapist - Someone who wants to escape; especially from reality; Intended for or tending toward escape; especially, used to avoid, deny, or forget about reality, as through fantasy.

In applying such in this scenario, he is escaping through the fantasy than a loving, tri-ultima powered, but make believe god, who is there to love and care for him. Incidentally, due to his faith, as a consequence, he senses patterns in meaningless noise (patternicity), where he thinks everything that happens is related or caused by his deity of choice. Of course, that is not so, it can be explained by chance or coincidence. Thus, there is a need to jog his mind back to reality. Afterall, there is no avoiding reality.

 

[Laurens]

It wasn't supernatural I'm afraid my friend. There are many, many people who hear voices - this is due to mental health problems.

I actually have a friend who is schizophrenic and he claims to get messages through the TV etc. I would advise seeking out professional help if this is a concern. Of course I'm not trying to say you are crazy simply because you are Christian, however, hearing voices is symptomatic of schizophrenia. You say you used to take drugs, if it was marijuana you are speaking of, there are many who think there is a link between marijuana and mental health problems, whether it be that those with mental health problems are more inclined to take the drug, or the drug causes mental health problems is unsure, but my friend also used to smoke lots of weed and he is in a very bad way at the moment.

To rule out supernatural, you need to first rule out mental health issues, or perhaps it was a one off moment in which you experienced the same inner voices that schizophrenic people do. Either way those explanations seem more likely than God talking to you.

What kinds of drugs did you used to take? I think this might have had an impact...

 

[blood_pardon]

Let's take this a little further, and ask the question: If god has the time to set up such a convenient series of events for you, why can't he set up a coincidence where starving africans find food? Where a girl chained up as a sex slave finds her chains loose enough to squeeze out of, and the door to her dungeon unlocked so she can run for help??

How do you know God doesn't help individual africans find food? Do you know any personally?
Do you feed the africans? Have you ever sent money? You say its in Gods power to help the hungry and he doesnt and therefore He is immoral but isnt within your power to something and yet...?
Who exactly is this girl tied up in the basement ? I would suggest alerting the authorities if you have that kind of information.

What does being supernaturally regenerated mean?

It's when God permanetly changes a person to be inclined towards what He wants. It's the begining of a very personal relationship, and from that moment forward a man cannot go off and play and sin without being disciplined for it, from that moment forward God begins to deal with a man and to mold Him into Christ likeness.

You have misidentified the nature of the interior voice. The interior voice is a thought, a body of sequenced information that circulates within a cognitive system, namely "you". You observed this flow of information and then misinterpreted its origin with the myth-oriented framework of Christianity that does not warrant the harmony between subjectivity and objectivity.

Or your making unwarranted judgements about my personal expirience and God does speak interact with people in the way I described.

I used to ask for those kinds of things all the time, one time a very specific thing I asked for happened and came on the news the next few days in the exact order I asked for it. Why do you think that happened?
Were my prayers answered? or was it a coincidence? If my prayers were answered, then why am I an atheist now?

Im really in no position to make judgements about your personal expiriences. Tell me WHY are you an atheist now? How long did you profess Christianity? Whats your story Story?

It wasn't supernatural I'm afraid my friend. There are many, many people who hear voices - this is due to mental health problems.

I actually have a friend who is schizophrenic and he claims to get messages through the TV etc. I would advise seeking out professional help if this is a concern. Of course I'm not trying to say you are crazy simply because you are Christian, however, hearing voices is symptomatic of schizophrenia. You say you used to take drugs, if it was marijuana you are speaking of, there are many who think there is a link between marijuana and mental health problems, whether it be that those with mental health problems are more inclined to take the drug, or the drug causes mental health problems is unsure, but my friend also used to smoke lots of weed and he is in a very bad way at the moment.

To rule out supernatural, you need to first rule out mental health issues, or perhaps it was a one off moment in which you experienced the same inner voices that schizophrenic people do. Either way those explanations seem more likely than God talking to you.

What kinds of drugs did you used to take? I think this might have had an impact...

I was clear to say that I did not hear an audible voices. My friends brother Charles was schitzophrenic, I say was because he drowned in 2008, but yeah it can get intense hanging around them. My next thread is going to be a paper I wrote in college about this same guy, very ODD things happened around him that actually convinced me of the supernatural before I came to Christ.

Its not like this is an isolated event, this is the story of my conversion. God is initiating a response from me almost daily, he corrects me for sin in my life, he leads me to hear certain teaching , he puts a deep desire in my heart for me to seek Him, he has brought so much peace and joy into my marriage. And He provides my needs abundantly! My wife and I moved into our apartment with nothing but an electric air up matress, our clothes and a TV. We've been given (or found laying by the trash) two nice chairs and a couch, a coffe table, lamp, 2 tvs, two tables for the kitchen and dining, computer desk, two queen beds, 3 dressers, a baby bassinet, and the funniest thing is we'll be talking about needing a certain item and a week later it just shows up! The other day in wal-mart my wife and I are walking by these lava lamps and she says she wants to get one of those because she remembers having one when she was younger and 3 days later guess what? TWO BRAND NEW lava lamps in the box just sitting by the dumpster! What the...?

 

[Story]

Im really in no position to make judgements about your personal expiriences. Tell me WHY are you an atheist now? How long did you profess Christianity? Whats your story Story?

My story is elaborate and you'd probably agree with my conclusions if you heard them, but to put it plainly. I'm an atheist because there isn't any compelling evidence to assert otherwise. The real question is, why are you a Christian? And the real answer is that it is because you feel or felt something that made you believe it was true. You're basing your understanding of the metaphysical world on your own feelings, which are themselves only a confusion of your memories. If it were anything other than your mind involved, then multitudes of people who had never heard of Christianity would be able to come to the same conclusions as you, because the holy spirit should still be able to communicate with them, but no one ever does.

I used to believe in god and I used to feel as if he answered many of my prayers, but I no longer do... and now I see clearly the many other prayers that he never answered and how likely and usual most of the prayers he had answered were. There were some amazing experiences I had with prayer, as I said, one of the things I asked for was announced on the News the next few days.

But here I am...

 

[blood_pardon]

You're basing your understanding of the metaphysical world on your own feelings, which are themselves only a confusion of your memories. If it were anything other than your mind involved, then multitudes of people who had never heard of Christianity would be able to come to the same conclusions as you, because the holy spirit should still be able to communicate with them, but no one ever does.

You need to understand how ignorant you sound when you say "no one ever does." Do you personally know anyone that's never heard of Christianity? If not why did you make this statement?

 

[Anachronous Rex]

You're basing your understanding of the metaphysical world on your own feelings, which are themselves only a confusion of your memories. If it were anything other than your mind involved, then multitudes of people who had never heard of Christianity would be able to come to the same conclusions as you, because the holy spirit should still be able to communicate with them, but no one ever does.

You need to understand how ignorant you sound when you say "no one ever does." Do you personally know anyone that's never heard of Christianity? If not why did you make this statement?

I once did, actually (Cambodian refugee.)

But the point in not diminished by the lack of said people in the modern era. Why is it that two whole continents had to be introduced to the idea if it arises organically?

 

[Story]

You need to understand how ignorant you sound when you say "no one ever does." Do you personally know anyone that's never heard of Christianity? If not why did you make this statement?

Actually, what you need to understand is how geographically restricted religion is. Haven't you seen maps of the world and how each religion tends to dominate parts of the world that it sprung up in and spread around. This demonstrates that all religions have to be taught and are not inherently known. It also demonstrates that the holy spirit can't communicate information to you unless you already know it, this should not be the case if god is a universal being.