Talk about rationality INVADED BY 9/11 Truthers

[CranesNotSkyHooks]

:shock:I'm part of the Secular Student Alliance at my community college and I led the discussion last meeting. I titled it "Being a citizen in a 21st century republic." I wanted to talk about the demands a 21st century republic makes on it's citizens and one of the chief things I brought up is that science is much more than a body of knowledge, it's a way of thinking. I'm very concerned about my country's (the United States) growing fascination with pseudoscience and with magical thinking in general. The point I wanted to hammer home was that irrationality in all it's forms be it creationism to the NWO theorists was a hazordous to the mental wellbeing of the people because it undermined the very foundation of the republic. But, of course, 3 out of the dozen or so people that regularly come were 9/11 truthers. One even objected to the calling my country a republic (he believes that he and I live in a fascist-like state). He then went on state that vaccinations cause autism. OMG I was shocked, I mean come on......But he would go on and on, no one challenged him expect at the very beginning, but than they just gave into him because he was just spewing out so much nonsense that it would be impossible to debunk it all in one sitting.

Seriously, the SSA is supposed to be the hub of rationality on campus and if it's invaded by these loons who claim to be critical thinkers but really aren't then.....yeah I'm even more worried than before.

I'm not trying to ridicule them or appeal to fear or anything like that, however I feel that there's a very real danger of this kind of secular paranoia exhibited by the conspiracy theorists that showed up at the meeting. Their encouraging people to not vote, to fear their government (you should be critical of your government instead), to believe the testimonies of people that are even more irrational than they are...based on logic that doesn't even stand up to minor scrutiny and no evidence. But no matter how many times we bring something up or object they'll just change the topic and spit out something else. This kind of irrationality has no place in a 21st century republic...

Anyway, what do you guys think? What should I do? Do you guys ever encounter this stuff?

(sorry for any grammatical errors) :lol:

 

[ImprobableJoe]

We encounter people all the time who are otherwise rational, and yet believe narrowly stupid things, like 9-11 conspiracies. Weird "free market" stupidity and calls to go back on the gold standard. Vaccinations cause autism. Circumcision destroys sexual function. The world was created by a magical sky daddy 6000 years ago.

This is the strongest evidence that atheism isn't a belief system... because there are atheists that hold all sorts of contradictory beliefs, and atheism has nothing to do with it.

 

[GoodKat]

It's almost impossible to beat a conspiracy theorist in a verbal debate, it happens too fast, you can't look up information or demand sources. Perhaps you should ask them to write a report aimed at convincing the rest of you, then destroy it.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

It's almost impossible to beat a conspiracy theorist in a verbal debate, it happens too fast, you can't look up information or demand sources. Perhaps you should ask them to write a report aimed at convincing the rest of you, then destroy it.

Even then it doesn't work, because they ignore all evidence, and ask more idiotic questions. They aren't actually going to listen to the answers, they instead assume that the existence of questions is the same as the existence of evidence.

 

[GoodKat]

Even then it doesn't work, because they ignore all evidence, and ask more idiotic questions. They aren't actually going to listen to the answers, they instead assume that the existence of questions is the same as the existence of evidence.

It probably won't convince them, but it will justify ridicule of them to all other members of the group, they will leave eventually.

 

[desertedcities]

Every time I was at 'Thinker's Club' in high school (which was basically a response the the 'Christian Alliance' that was allowed to meet in our school), there was always one or two of these douches that tried to change the topic from what we were discussing. After awhile, every time they would bring something up about it, the rest of the room just said, "Shut the hell up" simultaneously.

Before that, we tried to use the Popular Mechanics article that debunked all the major (and a lot of minor) conspiracy theories (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html). They were as ImprobableJoe said. We then just resorted to telling them to shut the hell up and they would just leave because there was no one that was listening.

 

[Otokogoroshi]

I support the 'shut the hell up' idea. If they aren't going to listen to you why in the name of all that is rational would you listen to them!?

These people don't deserve respect and your meetings shouldn't be ruined by their nonsense. I suggest getting the others together away from the loonies and bringing up the idea of just shooting them down every time they try to bring up that crap.

 

[CranesNotSkyHooks]

I support the 'shut the hell up' idea. If they aren't going to listen to you why in the name of all that is rational would you listen to them!?

Yeah I like that idea too, even though I feel a pang of guilt when I hear myself counting sheep whenever I hear one of them bleating their BS. But still, when one person OVER and OVER again is shown to be full of shit on even the minor points...it's like you just want to facepalm every time the douche opens his mouth.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

It probably won't convince them, but it will justify ridicule of them to all other members of the group, they will leave eventually.

Yeah, and then they go infect another group... :roll:

 

[GoodKat]

Yeah, and then they go infect another group... :roll:

Hopefully a religious group.

 

[Aught3]

Unfortunately, joining an SSA group does not automatically make you rational. Think of all the atheists that are falling for the new-age woo. Depending on how much it annoys you I would either ignore them are, as others have suggested, try to turn the group against them. That's always fun :twisted:

Conspiracy theories are immune to logic, evidence, and reason. On the other hand, you said they claimed to be critical thinkers so maybe there is hope? I've found the best question to ask is 'what evidence would convince you that you are wrong'. Hopefully, when they realise the answer is 'nothing' they can start to think about their ideas critically.

If it were me I would do a presentation on vaccines - that conspiracy is actually causing harm.

 

[blinddesign]

We encounter people all the time who are otherwise rational, and yet believe narrowly stupid things, like 9-11 conspiracies. Weird "free market" stupidity and calls to go back on the gold standard. Vaccinations cause autism. Circumcision destroys sexual function. The world was created by a magical sky daddy 6000 years ago.

This is the strongest evidence that atheism isn't a belief system... because there are atheists that hold all sorts of contradictory beliefs, and atheism has nothing to do with it.

What do you mean by "free-market stupidity"?

 

[GoodKat]

What do you mean by "free-market stupidity"?

Probably religious devotion to laissez-faire capitalism.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

What do you mean by "free-market stupidity"?

The fact that there's no such thing as "free markets," and the view that comes with the belief in a nonexistent "free market" that claims that a lack of market regulation leads to better outcomes for anyone besides the wealthiest 1%. Stupid ideas like "lower taxes lead to higher government revenues." You can include in that stupidity pretty much anything any libertarian has ever said about the economy.

I just painted a giant target on my back again, didn't I? :lol:

 

[GoodKat]

[
The fact that there's no such thing as "free markets," and the view that comes with the belief in a nonexistent "free market" that claims that a lack of market regulation leads to better outcomes for anyone besides the wealthiest 1%. Stupid ideas like "lower taxes lead to higher government revenues." You can include in that stupidity pretty much anything any libertarian has ever said about the economy.

I just painted a giant target on my back again, didn't I? :lol:

The only point I can contest is that lower taxes can lead to higher revenues, but only if the taxes are astronomical. There is a maximum revenue percentage that depends heavily on the individual company/person.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

The only point I can contest is that lower taxes can lead to higher revenues, but only if the taxes are astronomical. There is a maximum revenue percentage that depends heavily on the individual company/person.

Right... it becomes a religious belief when you believe tax cuts will ALWAYS mean higher revenue. Or, if you've been following politics lately, you believe tax cuts are always warranted in every situation, and you always oppose any tax increases no matter what.

 

[CranesNotSkyHooks]

Right... it becomes a religious belief when you believe tax cuts will ALWAYS mean higher revenue. Or, if you've been following politics lately, you believe tax cuts are always warranted in every situation, and you always oppose any tax increases no matter what.

Yup too true. I h8 the free market absolutists in my country (a perfect example is PCS2 aka Howtheworldworks) who have to resort to conspiracy theories of their own to get people to believe their BS. :roll:

 

[blinddesign]

Yup too true. I h8 the free market absolutists in my country (a perfect example is PCS2 aka Howtheworldworks) who have to resort to conspiracy theories of their own to get people to believe their BS. :roll:

I'm just considering the possibilty and I find it attractive, but I'm well too politically-illiterate and young to decide. I was just curious why you thought it was stupid. Anyway, this is off-topic so... continue with the original topic, thanks.

 

[JBeukema]

This is the strongest evidence that atheism isn't a belief system... because there are atheists that hold all sorts of contradictory beliefs, and atheism has nothing to do with it.

That don't prove shit, 'cause so does Christianity

Stupid ideas like "lower taxes lead to higher government revenues."

In the case of the Capital Gains tax, history shows it does

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I'm just considering the possibilty and I find it attractive, but I'm well too politically-illiterate and young to decide. I was just curious why you thought it was stupid. Anyway, this is off-topic so... continue with the original topic, thanks.

There are lots of things that young (and not so young) people find attractive, that become less so as they gain maturity and education, not to mention a sense of decency and empathy. Unregulated capitalism sounds good until you learn your history, and realize that the regulations are there because life before those regulations was horrible for most people. Then you realize that the people who want to deregulate don't care if life is horrible for most people, because they plan on joing the parasitic 1% at the top of the scam.