Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

[Bango Skank]

Fact: my roommate blew his head off in my house was an atheist.

I seriously hope you didn't have a role in his suicide. The filth you spill about atheists can have an affect to an atheist if he is already depressed. I remember you linking a video from antiatheist youtube channel where in highly upvoted comments many said that atheists are worthless and should kill themselves.

I'm myself infact depressed often and sometimes suicidal and i can tell you that when i used to interact with one deeply religious guy, it made me feel even shittier of myself. Deeply religious people seem to radiate "negative energy".

About suicide and atheism. Just a thought, but there is a study from year 2013 that showed atheists to be more intelligent than religious people. I've also read that highly intelligent persons tends to have more mental disorders. So maybe thats one explanation, but i havent researched that deeply so guys can correct if i'm completely wrong on this.

 

[thenexttodie]

Missing the point.

A history of depression-related mental health issues associated with suicidal tendencies is the deciding factor - not that the individuals with higher life-time suicide attempts in this study happen to be atheist.

As I already pointed out - and as is pointed out in the study - suicide tends to be more prevalent in youth.

The main reasons being that they are less emotionally stable, less likely to be in a stable relationship, such as marriage; nor have children.

How about this, Dragan Glas. Tell us where an emotionally unstable teenager is more likely to get the idea that he has a right to kill himself, provided the opportunity of visiting either

A: this forum

B: Church

 

[MarsCydonia]

How about this, Dragan Glas. Tell us where an emotionally unstable teenager is more likely to get the idea that he has a right to kill himself, provided the opportunity of visiting either

A: this forum

B: Church

Easy question:

Church.

 

[Sparhafoc]

How about this, Dragan Glas. Tell us where an emotionally unstable teenager is more likely to get the idea that he has a right to kill himself, provided the opportunity of visiting either

A: this forum

B: Church

A bizarre dichotomy.

This forum is a specific location, and has never, insofar as I am aware, ever declared that killing oneself is a 'right'.

Church, on the other hand, encompasses the hundreds of thousands of congregations of all manner of Christian sects, including those who are racist, white-supremacist ass-hats, including those who think that albinos are magical, and those who think that men can have multiple wives.

So on the one hand, we have a very specific and finite example which does not contain anything like you suggested, and on the other we have a vast, complex, and disparate set of unknowable entities which operate as much against each other as they operate under shared positions. I know very well, for example, the hatred that Catholics face from Protestants in the US, so are you going to declare that ALL Christians are X, or that no Christian church condones suicide/euthanasia under any circumstance?

I'll save my citations for your answer.

 

[thenexttodie]

I seriously hope you didn't have a role in his suicide. The filth you spill about atheists can have an affect to an atheist if he is already depressed. I remember you linking a video from antiatheist youtube channel where in highly upvoted comments many said that atheists are worthless and should kill themselves.

I'm myself infact depressed often and sometimes suicidal and i can tell you that when i used to interact with one deeply religious guy, it made me feel even shittier of myself. Deeply religious people seem to radiate "negative energy".

Yeah right. Homosexuals used say that the reason so many of them commit suicide was because they were ostracized from society. Npw today if a Christian man does not want to bake you a gay wedding cake, he could face a 500$ a day fine. So don't give me this "play the victim" bullshit. Because you have won. But you still kill yourselves at a rate 2-4 times higher than heterosexuals. And you get and spread AIDS at a phenominal rate. How much money has been spent on keeping homosexuals from dying from AIDS that could have been spent on..I dunno..keeping little innocent babies from dying of some fucked up disease but instead we spent all of these billions of dollars to keep gay men alive. You are also way more likely to use drugs and way way way more likely to have syphilis or some other fucked up disease. So when you get hurt and people come to help you and your bleeding all over the place, they have a far greater chance of being infected with something by you by coming in contact with your blood.


And you know this is all true.

I think most of the "negative energy" you feel is probably coming from inside yourself. You are the only one who has the power to say you are not going to live like this any more and that you are not going to support this. Stop playing the victim and stop lying to yourself.

 

[Collecemall]

Yeah right. Homosexuals used say that the reason so many of them commit suicide was because they were ostracized from society. Npw today if a Christian man does not want to bake you a gay wedding cake, he could face a 500$ a day fine. So don't give me this "play the victim" bullshit. Because you have won. But you still kill yourselves at a rate 2-4 times higher than heterosexuals. And you get and spread AIDS at a phenominal rate. How much money has been spent on keeping homosexuals from dying from AIDS that could have been spent on..I dunno..keeping little innocent babies from dying of some fucked up disease but instead we spent all of these billions of dollars to keep gay men alive. You are also way more likely to use drugs and way way way more likely to have syphilis or some other fucked up disease. So when you get hurt and people come to help you and your bleeding all over the place, they have a far greater chance of being infected with something by you by coming in contact with your blood.


And you know this is all true.

I think most of the "negative energy" you feel is probably coming from inside yourself. You are the only one who has the power to say you are not going to live like this any more and that you are not going to support this. Stop playing the victim and stop lying to yourself.

Which is it? EIther gays aren't ostracized or people are denying them basic services other people get without issue. Like wedding cakes.You can't have it both ways. What I know as true is you're one hate filled human. Maybe talk to the church that has fought tooth and nail to stop condom dispersal in places like Africa where rates are astronomical AMONG STRAIGHT PEOPLE. Take your god and his followers and gtfo of here with your hateful bullshit.

 

[Sparhafoc]

I seriously hope you didn't have a role in his suicide. The filth you spill about atheists can have an affect to an atheist if he is already depressed. I remember you linking a video from antiatheist youtube channel where in highly upvoted comments many said that atheists are worthless and should kill themselves.

I'm myself infact depressed often and sometimes suicidal and i can tell you that when i used to interact with one deeply religious guy, it made me feel even shittier of myself. Deeply religious people seem to radiate "negative energy".

Yeah right. Homosexuals used say that the reason so many of them commit suicide was because they were ostracized from society. Npw today if a Christian man does not want to bake you a gay wedding cake, he could face a 500$ a day fine. So don't give me this "play the victim" bullshit. Because you have won. But you still kill yourselves at a rate 2-4 times higher than heterosexuals. And you get and spread AIDS at a phenominal rate. How much money has been spent on keeping homosexuals from dying from AIDS that could have been spent on..I dunno..keeping little innocent babies from dying of some fucked up disease but instead we spent all of these billions of dollars to keep gay men alive. You are also way more likely to use drugs and way way way more likely to have syphilis or some other fucked up disease. So when you get hurt and people come to help you and your bleeding all over the place, they have a far greater chance of being infected with something by you by coming in contact with your blood.


And you know this is all true.

I think most of the "negative energy" you feel is probably coming from inside yourself. You are the only one who has the power to say you are not going to live like this any more and that you are not going to support this. Stop playing the victim and stop lying to yourself.

I.... TNTD - fuck off somewhere else until you've recovered from whatever it is that's making you act a total fucking ass. I'd say you're better than this, but honestly... there's no way to be worse.

Even if it were true - which it's categorically not - then where the fuck was your empathy while you hated on someone in reply to them explaining how they often feel depressed and sometimes suicidal?

Jesus fucking wept.

 

[Bango Skank]

...Foam-mouthed rambling and mind reading failure...again as usual...

Actually me being bisexual is not the source of my depression, it's a collection of other things.

So i won't bother to address your rambling. Besides you apparently don't need my answers to make up your own conclusions about me.

Oh, and that deeply religious guy who i used to know...it was the passive-aggressive behavior towards me when he occasionally wanted to "remind" me that atheists and "evolutionists" will be executed on the judgement day, which will be happening in his lifetime.

 

[Sparhafoc]

Oh, and that deeply religious guy who i used to know...it was the passive-aggressive behavior towards me when he occasionally wanted to "remind" me that atheists and "evolutionists" will be executed on the judgement day, which will be happening in his lifetime.

There's no-one so impoverished as those who think they have all the answers.

 

[thenexttodie]

How about this, Dragan Glas. Tell us where an emotionally unstable teenager is more likely to get the idea that he has a right to kill himself, provided the opportunity of visiting either

A: this forum

B: Church

A bizarre dichotomy.

This forum is a specific location, and has never, insofar as I am aware, ever declared that killing oneself is a 'right'.

Church, on the other hand, encompasses the hundreds of thousands of congregations of all manner of Christian sects, including those who are racist, white-supremacist ass-hats, including those who think that albinos are magical, and those who think that men can have multiple wives.

So on the one hand, we have a very specific and finite example which does not contain anything like you suggested, and on the other we have a vast, complex, and disparate set of unknowable entities which operate as much against each other as they operate under shared positions. I know very well, for example, the hatred that Catholics face from Protestants in the US, so are you going to declare that ALL Christians are X, or that no Christian church condones suicide/euthanasia under any circumstance?

I'll save my citations for your answer.

Well, lets start with you.

Do you believe people have a right to commit suicide? (Your answer will basically be "yes")

Before you came here I started a thread about a man in Europe who said he wanted to die and was euthanized for being an alcoholic. I don't remember any active member replying who was against this.

I know very well, for example, the hatred that Catholics face from Protestants in the US, so are you going to declare that ALL Christians are X, or that no Christian church condones suicide/euthanasia under any circumstance?

I think you have mentioned something before about Protestants hating Catholics in the US. I don't think is something which is actually going on today. But it could be. The US is big place.

I am a Protestant and part of me really likes the Catholics Church.

 

[Sparhafoc]

Well, lets start with you.

Do you believe people have a right to commit suicide? (Your answer will basically be "yes")

Before you came here I started a thread about a man in Europe who said he wanted to die and was euthanized for being an alcoholic. I don't remember any active member replying who was against this.

My answer honestly is 'it depends'. I don't really feel obliged to take a blanket position.

Part of the problem is the language used - rights, for example, are wholly man-made moral principles based on empathy and the universality of being human. However, different states acknowledge different sets of rights. As most states consider suicide or aiding suicide to be a criminal act, it can't really be called a 'right'.

So the question is whether it should be a right or not. For me, there are some obvious problems with a blanket affirmative, such as states euthanizing sectors of their populace against their will, mentally ill people being potentially being unaware of the weight of the decision, and children being unable (by law) to make decisions for themselves.

However, in an idealized condition where a mentally competent adult is suffering unduly from an irremediable condition which causes them and their family distress, I don't see how any other human being rationally has the right to stop them from ending their own life, or to declare it illegal.

Basically, my answer is 'yes self-euthanasia should be allowed, with safeguards' - the same way as we 'allow' adult human beings to be responsible for their own actions in other areas of society. But I think nuance is vital there, and I won't have my position simplified to a binary for the sake of a motivated argument.

I think you have mentioned something before about Protestants hating Catholics in the US. I don't think is something which is actually going on today. But it could be. The US is big place.

Well, I can only assure you that I have personally witnessed excessive prejudice against Catholics by US Protestants - time and time again, I see ardent evangelicals calling Catholicism 'satanic', and that the Catholics are evil. In some quarters, the hatred is as deep as their hatred of Jews.

I am a Protestant and part of me really likes the Catholics Church.

To reconvene on my point, Christianity is not homogeneous, and there are Christian churches which support euthanasia, and as such your earlier question also depends on the specific context.

Also, a suicidal person coming here might well find more empathy and acceptance than if they visited one of the Christian churches who preach hellfire against anyone who breaks what they consider to be divine laws. I can't imagine how that would produce a better mental state than one which employed individual empathy.

 

[thenexttodie]

Well, lets start with you.

Do you believe people have a right to commit suicide? (Your answer will basically be "yes")

Before you came here I started a thread about a man in Europe who said he wanted to die and was euthanized for being an alcoholic. I don't remember any active member replying who was against this.

My answer honestly is 'it depends'. I don't really feel obliged to take a blanket position.

Uh..ok.

Part of the problem is the language used - rights, for example, are wholly man-made moral principles based on empathy and the universality of being human. However, different states acknowledge different sets of rights. As most states consider suicide or aiding suicide to be a criminal act, it can't really be called a 'right'.

Even secularists will claim "human rights" exist, and that states violate these rights regardless of whether or not these rights have been codified by one state or another. So I don't see what your problem is.

So the question is whether it should be a right or not.

No that wasn't the question.

For me, there are some obvious problems with a blanket affirmative, such as states euthanizing sectors of their populace against their will, mentally ill people being potentially being unaware of the weight of the decision, and children being unable (by law) to make decisions for themselves.

I don't have these problems, I affirm that it is always wrong to kill yourself.

However, in an idealized condition where a mentally competent adult is suffering unduly from an irremediable condition which causes them and their family distress, I don't see how any other human being rationally has the right to stop them from ending their own life, or to declare it illegal.

Well, the first part of what you say above could mean almost anything.

Will you admit this; that there is no real irremediable medical condition in which a person is in so much physical pain that he would be screaming to die for days on end? Because I think this is this picture that supporters of euthanasia like to paint. AHHH! OHH GOD PLEAASE KILL ME I CANT TAKE THE PAIN AAAAAARRRGGGHHHH!!

So I am not exactly sure who it is you think we will be allowing to "self euthanize". Or exactly why it is you think we need to allow certain people to commit suicide.

Can you be more specific?

 

[Sparhafoc]

Even secularists will claim "human rights" exist, and that states violate these rights regardless of whether or not these rights have been codified by one state or another. So I don't see what your problem is.

It's not really my problem, it's an issue with your notion. You are conflating, and consequently getting confused, by prescription and description. My point was about description - that it is like this. Your point is about prescription: what should be. When I want to say that something 'should be' - I will write it very clearly, otherwise I am making a point about what is.

The issue raised is that secularists claim human rights exist? Well, I am a secularist, and I've just explained human rights to you in a way that both acknowledges that they exist, and simultaneously explains them as existing due to humans creating them. As they are created by humans, I don't assume that we have alighted on the One True Set of human rights. I very much expect human rights to continue expanding as they have done for centuries. New pressures on society and the environment will generate importance in human rights we have not yet explored, or even consider existing.

One you can watch unfolding now is marriage equality. It's rippling around the world, and it is becoming a central issue for many interactions between states with respect to human rights.

So there seems to be an implicit, albeit unstated question in your reply: by what right does one state criticize the human rights of another state that hasn't codified a given human right? Of course, there can be many answers to this, but the one I will propose is the one that maximized human liberty is the more compelling one because essentially all rights advances have provided a widening of the circle of those privileged under the various laws of those states. When a group of people is held in any way as a second class citizen relative to the justice of that nation, then there is an issue with equality of liberty, and it is not something generally desirable. If one person can do X, then another person should also be free do X.

As such, the operating principle you were questioning is really just fundamentally about equality.

So the question is whether it should be a right or not.

No that wasn't the question.

Well, you may not have phrased it as such, but that is very much what's underlying your question. See above for the distinction between description and prescription.

For me, there are some obvious problems with a blanket affirmative, such as states euthanizing sectors of their populace against their will, mentally ill people being potentially being unaware of the weight of the decision, and children being unable (by law) to make decisions for themselves.

I don't have these problems, I affirm that it is always wrong to kill yourself.

Then I would warn against a paucity of imagination and/or empathy.

I can produce many thought experiments where, I think, you would find it very difficult to maintain that statement.

I also think that you are failing to understand that your personal opinion doesn't supersede other peoples' freedoms to choose. Even from a Christian perspective, that's a redundant notion you possess as you are categorically not the judge of what is right or acceptable: you are obliged to believe that only God is. If someone committing suicide / euthanasia is a crime according to God, then it is up to God to judge and charge that person, not you or society. There are no other victims of that suicide / euthanasia (laying aside the emotional anguish of friends and family as that presents mutually contradictory distraction), and as such, even if your God belief is right, then they are employing the free will to choose to do right or wrong in accordance with what you believe the Creator of the entire universe and everything in it decreed. So who would you be to stop them enacting their choice?

However, in an idealized condition where a mentally competent adult is suffering unduly from an irremediable condition which causes them and their family distress, I don't see how any other human being rationally has the right to stop them from ending their own life, or to declare it illegal.

Well, the first part of what you say above could mean almost anything.

Which first part?

Will you admit this;...

Admit? /scratchy head emoticon

We're not confessing things - we're explaining our positions.

I will assume you mean 'do you agree...'

(Do you agree...) that there is no real irremediable medical condition in which a person is in so much physical pain that he would be screaming to die for days on end? Because I think this is this picture that supporters of euthanasia like to paint. AHHH! OHH GOD PLEAASE KILL ME I CANT TAKE THE PAIN AAAAAARRRGGGHHHH!!

Of course I don't agree with you because it's complete baloney to state that there are no irremediable conditions which produce such pain. Unless you personally have experienced all possible forms of pain - who are you to decide which are bearable or not?

As someone who has both lived with seriously disabled people and suffered long term chronic pain myself, I can well imagine people just tiring out from the constant agony and wanting it all to end. My take on this is that, if they are mentally healthy adults, then who the fuck are we to tell them what they can or can't do with their lives?

Of course, this is a vast and complex topic with so many different inputs its impossible ever to generalize with any honesty or accuracy, but assuming an idealized condition in which the person is an adult, they are not suffering from mental health issues, they are not depressed or on drugs which may be affecting their brain chemistry, that there are no likely cures for their disease, and that it causes them sufficient hardship that they would actually prefer to die rather than to live and hope, and that they have been exhaustively examined by medical professionals, then it is their choice, and all I feel is sadness that they felt induced into ending their life because they had no hope of their condition improving.

This is the bit I think it would be good for you to meditate on. People don't generally take their own lives on a whim. It's pretty cross-cultural, and in fact, inter-specific. Life wants to stay alive as its most basic function. Think about how much pain someone must be going through in order for them to make that decision.

I really think it's disappointing that you would assume that your experiences are the yard-stick by which all must be judged. Just hope you're never in unremitting agony so you never have to see whether you're as hard-line about it then as you are now when your words cost nothing.

So I am not exactly sure who it is you think we will be allowing to "self euthanize". Or exactly why it is you think we need to allow certain people to commit suicide.

Can you be more specific?

I was already perfectly specific in the post you're replying to, but further, as I've already told you - I think it's an individual's decision, not yours, and not the state's. It's not something you can stop happening - you can only burden them with guilt and hatred. How about that Christian love, tolerance, and acceptance? Why do you feel it's down to you to make judgments about other peoples' lives when it's supposedly expressly God's domain?

 

[thenexttodie]

@ Sparhafoc Thank you for your reply, I will like to respond when I am able to give an effort of full consideration of what you have said.

 

[thenexttodie]

Actually me being bisexual is not the source of my depression, it's a collection of other things.

You know what I think your trying to do, Bango? You are trying to gain sympathy by pretending you might be on the verge of committing suicide because me or some one else or other people told you to stop being gay. You are doing this because you want to put the idea in our heads that it is the Christians fault that gay people do things like drugs, spreading hepatitis and syphilis, and commiting suicide at a phenominal rate.

 

[Bango Skank]

You know what I think your trying to do, Bango? You are trying to gain sympathy by pretending you might be on the verge of committing suicide because me or some one else or other people told you to stop being gay. You are doing this because you want to put the idea in our heads that it is the Christians fault that gay people do things like drugs, spreading hepatitis and syphilis, and commiting suicide at a phenominal rate.

Uh huh...okay.

 

[Sparhafoc]

Actually me being bisexual is not the source of my depression, it's a collection of other things.

You know what I think your trying to do, Bango? You are trying to gain sympathy by pretending you might be on the verge of committing suicide because me or some one else or other people told you to stop being gay. You are doing this because you want to put the idea in our heads that it is the Christians fault that gay people do things like drugs, spreading hepatitis and syphilis, and commiting suicide at a phenominal rate.

To be honest, I think it's a terrible notion on your part. If someone even mentions suicide, I think it's prudent to back the fuck off, or otherwise spend more time consoling that person, or letting them express themselves and offer a little understanding.... anything is better than asserting that you know they have a secret, nefarious agenda.

How can you both be against suicide ever, unconditionally, and yet fail to give two fucks when someone talks about feeling suicidal? There's a fundamental contradiction there.

Gay people do drugs, so do heterosexuals - you have yourself talked about doing drugs, so I am not sure why this would be something specific to homosexuals.

Hepatitis and syphilis are also spread by heterosexuals - in fact, they were primarily spread by heterosexuals; their existence is predicated on heterosexuality. Neither of them has anything to do with one's sexual partner, but rather with preventative measures.

Finally, if homosexuals really are committing suicide at a phenomenal rate, then perhaps you should be wondering why it might be the case. I would forward a notion that societal hatred, prejudice and vicious spite is probably high on the list. If you are considered vile or inhuman simply because you naturally love the wrong person, then life would be a damn sight harder for you. In some nations you could still be killed by the state for homosexuality, in others your friends and neighbours might stigmatize and abandon you, you might lose your job and be pushed to the outskirts of society with no hope ever of being considered equal.

I am asking you to engage your empathy circuits here and imagine what it would feel like to be in such a position based on something essential to yourself that you cannot change. Worse, aren't you simply joining the bandwagon of hatred affecting these people because you're alright Jack?

To me, tolerance costs nothing, and empathy grows when it is exercised.

 

[Sparhafoc]

Incidentally, TNTD... what do you think about those nations whose policy is to criminalize homosexuality?

Approximately a dozen nations still retain the death penalty for homosexuality. What is your opinion on that? Do you think it appropriate for humans to exercise justice in proxy of God's purported laws?

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

Might I add that left-handers have a shorter life-span by an average of nine years.

TNTD, would you blame left-handers for this?

Kindest regards,

James

 

[Dustnite]

I'll just put this here: