Suicide. Is it reasonable to kill yourself?

[Sparhafoc]

Thank you. I have to work a lot of fucked up hours now and I have some other fucked up shit going on in my family.

Strength and honour!

Do you agree or disagree that the Bible expressly states that only God can judge?

Disagree. God has the ability to judge some things which we are not presently able to, for instance what is in our hearts.

Or, for example, the extreme unbearable pain someone experiences that makes their existence torturous?

The only reason I think you want people to believe that the Bible teaches us to never judge anyone is because you are trying to defend homosexuals from Christians who say homosexuality is evil. If I were talking about not letting a convicted child molester babysit my kids you would not be telling me "Oh well the Bible says you shouldn't judge so you can't let someone not be around kids just because they are a child molester...."

Weird.

No, I have not mentioned homosexuality at all except in response to your last post which talked about it. If there's any desire to discuss it from someone here... it's you!

What I was talking about, and have been throughout, is that you cannot assert that God would judge unfavorably someone who commits suicide. You have declared an absolute, and I am exemplifying conditionals and showing that the remit of your remark is restricted to your personal opinion, and that you are cherry picking from the Bible to justify it.

Incidentally, though, I don't often hear Christians call homosexuality 'evil' - only the crackpot fringe like the Westboro Baptist Church - usually Christians call it a 'sin' and say that they hate the sin but love the sinner.

Of course, I do not need to defend homosexuals from idiocy - idiocy defeats itself.

For example, homosexuality is not related to child molestation. Pedophilia isn't about gender; it's a sexual attraction to children. As such, your own idiocy herein defeated itself.

Sorry to be rude to you, but when you act like that, you are asking to be taken down a peg or two.

 

[Sparhafoc]

As we're there now....

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8772014

The authors investigated the role of homosexual arousal in exclusively heterosexual men who admitted negative affect toward homosexual individuals. Participants consisted of a group of homophobic men (n = 35) and a group of nonhomophobic men (n = 29); they were assigned to groups on the basis of their scores on the Index of Homophobia (W. W. Hudson & W. A. Ricketts, 1980). The men were exposed to sexually explicit erotic stimuli consisting of heterosexual, male homosexual, and lesbian videotapes, and changes in penile circumference were monitored. They also completed an Aggression Questionnaire (A. H. Buss & M. Perry, 1992). Both groups exhibited increases in penile circumference to the heterosexual and female homosexual videos. Only the homophobic men showed an increase in penile erection to male homosexual stimuli. The groups did not differ in aggression. Homophobia is apparently associated with homosexual arousal that the homophobic individual is either unaware of or denies.

Explains all those homophobic Christian ministers who get caught snorting crack from a rent boy's crack.

 

[he_who_is_nobody]

Weird.

No, I have not mentioned homosexuality at all except in response to your last post which talked about it. If there's any desire to discuss it from someone here... it's you!

As we're there now....

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8772014

The authors investigated the role of homosexual arousal in exclusively heterosexual men who admitted negative affect toward homosexual individuals. Participants consisted of a group of homophobic men (n = 35) and a group of nonhomophobic men (n = 29); they were assigned to groups on the basis of their scores on the Index of Homophobia (W. W. Hudson & W. A. Ricketts, 1980). The men were exposed to sexually explicit erotic stimuli consisting of heterosexual, male homosexual, and lesbian videotapes, and changes in penile circumference were monitored. They also completed an Aggression Questionnaire (A. H. Buss & M. Perry, 1992). Both groups exhibited increases in penile circumference to the heterosexual and female homosexual videos. Only the homophobic men showed an increase in penile erection to male homosexual stimuli. The groups did not differ in aggression. Homophobia is apparently associated with homosexual arousal that the homophobic individual is either unaware of or denies.

Explains all those homophobic Christian ministers who get caught snorting crack from a rent boy's crack.

Thenexttodie does love to bring up homosexuality.

 

[MarsCydonia]

Weird.

No, I have not mentioned homosexuality at all except in response to your last post which talked about it. If there's any desire to discuss it from someone here... it's you!

Explains all those homophobic Christian ministers who get caught snorting crack from a rent boy's crack.

Thenexttodie does love to bring up homosexuality.

He's thoroughly obsessed with male homosexuality.

We have noticed and suspect the same conclusion as the study.

 

[thenexttodie]

Thank you. I have to work a lot of fucked up hours now and I have some other fucked up shit going on in my family.

Strength and honour!.

Thank you.

Do you agree or disagree that the Bible expressly states that only God can judge?

Disagree. God has the ability to judge some things which we are not presently able to, for instance what is in our hearts.

Or, for example, the extreme unbearable pain someone experiences that makes their existence torturous?

Yes. You have made some good points. But I don't feel they are strong enough. They are mostly equivalent to proclaiming "We are all Romans and we know all about straight roads!"

No, I have not mentioned homosexuality at all except in response to your last post which talked about it. If there's any desire to discuss it from someone here... it's you!

I have in part a certain affection for homosexuality, when it expresses a raw truth of the power of sexuality. I know everyone thinks I am picking on Bango. I am pretty sure he is practically a virgin compared to me. But I love him enough to even admit something about me which is embarrassing so he knows I am at least sincere. And I don't want him to engage in sexual immorality because I know it will hurt him.

What I was talking about, and have been throughout, is that you cannot assert that God would judge unfavorably someone who commits suicide. You have declared an absolute, and I am exemplifying conditionals and showing that the remit of your remark is restricted to your personal opinion, and that you are cherry picking from the Bible to justify it.

I am a Christian. If for whatever reason I decided to just sit in my running car with garage door close until I die, I am pretty sure god would be angry with me for using my automobile to kill myself.

If you want to know if everyone who commits suicide goes to hell, I don't think so. I guess the Catholics believe people who kill themselves all go to hell. There is nothing I can think of in Bible which supports this idea.

Incidentally, though, I don't often hear Christians call homosexuality 'evil' - only the crackpot fringe like the Westboro Baptist Church - usually Christians call it a 'sin' and say that they hate the sin but love the sinner.

I am sure you are aware that I honestly dont really give a flying fuck what most Christian churches have to say about anything and I am sure the few good Christian churches that do exist would never accept me as a member.

Of course, I do not need to defend homosexuals from idiocy - idiocy defeats itself.

For example, homosexuality is not related to child molestation. Pedophilia isn't about gender; it's a sexual attraction to children.

That's amazing.

Sorry to be rude to you, but when you act like that, you are asking to be taken down a peg or two.

I bath in your rudeness as happily as I would bath in a shower of the blood of enemies. We need more rudeness! We must all take the offensive to remind the world we are fucking human beings! We are more than what the fucking TV tells us we are!

Because the world today, more than anything else, wants to repress original thought. They don't want any of us to think for ourselves. Faggots, Atheists, and Christians are all the fucking same. It is mostly the politicians and the media who are constantly devising ways to pit us all against each other.

 

[Sparhafoc]

Yes. You have made some good points. But I don't feel they are strong enough. They are mostly equivalent to proclaiming "We are all Romans and we know all about straight roads!"

I am not sure that's really got anything to do with what I wrote.

To reconvene on my point here: if life becomes a continuous agony, and the victim is an adult with no mental health issues, and they are given a diagnosis by doctors that shows there is no potential cure.... then why would society elect to block this person from ending their life?

I've given my arguments as to why I think it's rational to allow people in such a scenario to be treated as a competent, responsible adult able to make their own decisions... but you've not given any counter-arguments. Is your argument solely scriptural? Or do you have other reasons?

No, I have not mentioned homosexuality at all except in response to your last post which talked about it. If there's any desire to discuss it from someone here... it's you!

I have in part a certain affection for homosexuality, when it expresses a raw truth of the power of sexuality. I know everyone thinks I am picking on Bango. I am pretty sure he is practically a virgin compared to me. But I love him enough to even admit something about me which is embarrassing so he knows I am at least sincere. And I don't want him to engage in sexual immorality because I know it will hurt him.

No disrespect to you or your inclinations, but loving someone cannot hurt him, and you declaring so is little short of bullying - of course, it's a supernatural threat which reflects poorly on you that you would try and dump your hangups on someone else.

My rejection of that notion goes.... If your God exists and 'he' makes human beings (and in fact, all life on Earth) have homosexual inclinations then it's far more perverse if the god then punishes them for it. What for? For failing to reject their nature?

I don't know - maybe you believe your god is a tyrant who can do whatever 'he' pleases, but again, the alleged Christian God's ontology as per typical Christian belief and praxis suggests that God is all about forgiveness, mercy, and love. This presents an unresolvable contradiction. Your God cannot be both the creator of nature and prepared to hurt that natural behavior unless it is capricious entity to the extreme.

Before replying on this, please be prepared to note that homosexuality is found throughout the natural world. Too many Christians are unaware of this and find themselves making absurd declarations about homosexuality being restricted only to humans with the implication that they are 'fallen' into sin. Unless ducks and deer, lice and starfish are also 'fallen' and can actively sin, then homosexuality is a statistically latent tendency in biological life, and thus must have been created that way if God truly is the creator of nature.

I am a Christian. If for whatever reason I decided to just sit in my running car with garage door close until I die, I am pretty sure god would be angry with me for using my automobile to kill myself.

I am not really sure why God would be angry with you (seems so anthropocentric), but even if it were the case here, your declaration of being Christian seems to be linked to the notion of 'his' anger. Would you not then say that the god would be less angry - or not angry at all - if a non-Christian commits suicide?

Following this notion, would God also be angry with you if you drove poorly, crashed your car, and killed yourself. Albeit an unintentional result, you still personally created the circumstances which lead to your death.

If you want to know if everyone who commits suicide goes to hell, I don't think so. I guess the Catholics believe people who kill themselves all go to hell. There is nothing I can think of in Bible which supports this idea.

Oh so you don't believe in Hell?

I am a bit perplexed because, several times now, you've told people that their actions will get them hurt. Each time I've assumed it was a supernatural threat about Hell. Was it something more esoteric? I don't presume it was a personal threat!

Even when I was a Christian, the notion of fiery torturous Hell was utterly surreal to me - it just seems so in conflict with the overarching message of Christianity. How can a God with the characteristics ascribed to 'him' by Christian scripture actively plan and design a place of eternal torment to punish those inept, naive creatures 'he' created which failed? Even when I was a Christian, I just rationalized this away by applying other scripture suggesting that everyone would die, be raised in judgment, and then either obliterated in the final death, or held to the cosmic bosom for eternity.

Hell's such a tawdry belief.

I am sure you are aware that I honestly dont really give a flying fuck what most Christian churches have to say about anything and I am sure the few good Christian churches that do exist would never accept me as a member.

And again, all I can say to this is that I whole-heartedly believe that individual takes are essential to doing religion right, and that it's sad that so many Christian churches engage in this false certainty of holding the One True Interpretation.... but on the other hand, if you're going to argue a position based on the premise of the Christian god, it's a bit off that you hold positions wholly contrary to the majority Christian position. It's a bit of a moving target where your beliefs could literally be anything you say they are, and consequently, it's hard to take you as representing Christianity. Surely, you're just representing your own belief which has some passing similarity to Christianity?

Of course, I do not need to defend homosexuals from idiocy - idiocy defeats itself.

For example, homosexuality is not related to child molestation. Pedophilia isn't about gender; it's a sexual attraction to children.

That's amazing.

And true.

It's a damn sight more amazing how you or anyone would believe that homosexuality is equivalent to pedophilia.

Sorry to be rude to you, but when you act like that, you are asking to be taken down a peg or two.

I bath in your rudeness as happily as I would bath in a shower of the blood of enemies. We need more rudeness! We must all take the offensive to remind the world we are fucking human beings! We are more than what the fucking TV tells us we are!

We are indeed human beings, and that comprises standards of interaction, behavior, etiquette and the like. I don't need to agree with you to consider you an equal, intrinsically valuable human. Generally, I'd rather show that respect rather than engage in puerile ragging on each other. To put it another way, when I expressly want to be rude, I won't bother to write that it's not my aim.

However, I also value truth and honesty, so if you forward a despicable notion, I will take you to task for it... I hope you and others would do the same for me to do the equivalent of a clip round the ear and make me reconsider whether what I'd said was worthy of me.

Because the world today, more than anything else, wants to repress original thought. They don't want any of us to think for ourselves. Faggots, Atheists, and Christians are all the fucking same. It is mostly the politicians and the media who are constantly devising ways to pit us all against each other.

There are different worlds within this one; different cultures, different sub-cultures and institutions. I like to live abroad in a foreign culture because little is expected of me in terms of homogeneity - they assume I think differently regardless, so they're not surprised when I voice something unexpected. Similarly, I thoroughly enjoy academic institution sub-culture where numerous experts in various fields exchange ideas that are truly horizon-widening. I guess we have to make choices about the people we surround ourselves with, but we also have to make sure we're the kind of person we'd like to hang out with. I'm perfectly happy with pedantic, semi-Asperger's style experts - they may lack all social skills, but this just makes them free of egotistical bullshit. Any which way, there is more original thought occurring today than at any time in the past because people today have the tools, the knowledge, and the luxury of life-style to commit to that.

 

[thenexttodie]

To reconvene on my point here: if life becomes a continuous agony, and the victim is an adult with no mental health issues, and they are given a diagnosis by doctors that shows there is no potential cure.... then why would society elect to block this person from ending their life?

I've given my arguments as to why I think it's rational to allow people in such a scenario to be treated as a competent, responsible adult able to make their own decisions... but you've not given any counter-arguments. Is your argument solely scriptural? Or do you have other reasons?

I just don't think you have given any good reasons for us to legalize suicide. You have not demonstrated a need for a pro suicide social policy.

No, I have not mentioned homosexuality at all except in response to your last post which talked about it. If there's any desire to discuss it from someone here... it's you!

I have in part a certain affection for homosexuality, when it expresses a raw truth of the power of sexuality. I know everyone thinks I am picking on Bango. I am pretty sure he is practically a virgin compared to me. But I love him enough to even admit something about me which is embarrassing so he knows I am at least sincere. And I don't want him to engage in sexual immorality because I know it will hurt him.

No disrespect to you or your inclinations, but loving someone cannot hurt him, and you declaring so is little short of bullying - of course, it's a supernatural threat which reflects poorly on you that you would try and dump your hangups on someone else.

Dying from AIDS or other HIV related illnesses is not a supernatural threat. Transmitting syphilis and other STD's at an astronomical rate is not a supernatural threat. An increased risk of drug use and suicide, is not a supernatural threat.

My rejection of that notion goes.... If your God exists and 'he' makes human beings (and in fact, all life on Earth) have homosexual inclinations then it's far more perverse if the god then punishes them for it. What for? For failing to reject their nature?

It is in our nature to hurt each other and to reject basically anything God says he want us to do. Some of us will chose to reconcile ourselves to God and He will let us live with Him forever. For everyone else, God will put them as far away from us as possible.

I don't know - maybe you believe your god is a tyrant who can do whatever 'he' pleases, but again, the alleged Christian God's ontology as per typical Christian belief and praxis suggests that God is all about forgiveness, mercy, and love. This presents an unresolvable contradiction. Your God cannot be both the creator of nature and prepared to hurt that natural behavior unless it is capricious entity to the extreme.

Do forgiveness, mercy and love require moral apathy?

Maybe I could better understand you if your could explain to me what your idea of heaven or eternal paradise is.

Before replying on this, please be prepared to note that homosexuality is found throughout the natural world. Too many Christians are unaware of this and find themselves making absurd declarations about homosexuality being restricted only to humans with the implication that they are 'fallen' into sin. Unless ducks and deer, lice and starfish are also 'fallen' and can actively sin, then homosexuality is a statistically latent tendency in biological life, and thus must have been created that way if God truly is the creator of nature.

Animals eat their young, Sparhafoc. They defecate and masturbate in front of each other. Are you saying homosexuals behave like animals? So it's ok? That's a weird argument.

I am a Christian. If for whatever reason I decided to just sit in my running car with garage door close until I die, I am pretty sure god would be angry with me for using my automobile to kill myself.

I am not really sure why God would be angry with you (seems so anthropocentric), but even if it were the case here, your declaration of being Christian seems to be linked to the notion of 'his' anger. Would you not then say that the god would be less angry - or not angry at all - if a non-Christian commits suicide?

I was just pointing out the fact that I am Christian for no particular reason other than reminding everyone that I am Christian(I tend to do this from time to time.)

Would God be less angry at a non-Christian for committing suicide? I can't think of how to answer this right now. How is this important?

Following this notion, would God also be angry with you if you drove poorly, crashed your car, and killed yourself. Albeit an unintentional result, you still personally created the circumstances which lead to your death.

No.

If you want to know if everyone who commits suicide goes to hell, I don't think so. I guess the Catholics believe people who kill themselves all go to hell. There is nothing I can think of in Bible which supports this idea.

Oh so you don't believe in Hell?

I am a bit perplexed because, several times now, you've told people that their actions will get them hurt. Each time I've assumed it was a supernatural threat about Hell. Was it something more esoteric? I don't presume it was a personal threat!

Even when I was a Christian, the notion of fiery torturous Hell was utterly surreal to me - it just seems so in conflict with the overarching message of Christianity. How can a God with the characteristics ascribed to 'him' by Christian scripture actively plan and design a place of eternal torment to punish those inept, naive creatures 'he' created which failed? Even when I was a Christian, I just rationalized this away by applying other scripture suggesting that everyone would die, be raised in judgment, and then either obliterated in the final death, or held to the cosmic bosom for eternity.

Hell's such a tawdry belief.

You were a Christian? Why did you decide to become a Christian back then? (Sorry to answer your question with more questions)


That's all I have Sparhafoc, though I did read the rest of your post. Sounds like you have an interesting life. I hope everything goes well with you.

 

[Sparhafoc]

I just don't think you have given any good reasons for us to legalize suicide. You have not demonstrated a need for a pro suicide social policy.

That's a fundamental misapprehension that is destructive of liberty.

One never needs to give a good reason to allow something: only to disallow it.

By default, everything is (or should be*) legal. It's only those acts that we can show cause public harm that should be legislated on.

* talking about modern, secular states based on equality and rule of law - not theocracies or loony ideological states

Dying from AIDS or other HIV related illnesses is not a supernatural threat. Transmitting syphilis and other STD's at an astronomical rate is not a supernatural threat. An increased risk of drug use and suicide, is not a supernatural threat.

Except that none of these have anything implicitly to do with homosexuality, as I've already explained. Either your warning is redundant to the conversation, because it's true for everyone regardless of their sexuality... or your threat is supernatural and you're warning against annoying the alleged magical entity.

Let's make this clear: HIV, AIDS, syphilis, and other STD's are spread through heterosexual sex too. Given the fact that there are a lot more heterosexual people, it stands to reason that more cases of all of the above come as a result of heterosexual sex. Ergo, why do you keep appealing to this when it provides not a jot of support for your position?

Unless, of course, you want me to believe that these are predominantly homosexual diseases. If so, please cite medical sources.

It is in our nature to hurt each other....

I don't accept that - I can provide evidence of homosexuality being part of our nature and of nature in general, but you can't provide evidence for your position.

Secondly, you believe God created this nature, and declared it 'good'.

... and to reject basically anything God says he want us to do.

Again, supposedly a nature designed by God.

Some of us will chose to reconcile ourselves to God and He will let us live with Him forever. For everyone else, God will put them as far away from us as possible.

Reconcile our morality to accept the monstrous levels of viciousness and immorality exhibited by this invisible being in the Bible? Supposing your God is real, he can pop his immaterial cock up his ineffable rectum for all I am concerned. Such a being does not merit respect, let alone worship.

Of course, that god is not real, and cannot be real. The mirror of anthropocentric prejudice is more than adequate to establish that.

I don't know - maybe you believe your god is a tyrant who can do whatever 'he' pleases, but again, the alleged Christian God's ontology as per typical Christian belief and praxis suggests that God is all about forgiveness, mercy, and love. This presents an unresolvable contradiction. Your God cannot be both the creator of nature and prepared to hurt that natural behavior unless it is capricious entity to the extreme.

Do forgiveness, mercy and love require moral apathy?

Please reply to my points regarding the contradiction identified before adding your own.

Forgiveness, mercy, and love require empathy - the ability to see and understand another person's perspective and pains. How can an entity be forgiving if there's a list of things it can never forgive? That undermines any notion that it possesses the characteristic of forgiveness. Same for the others.

Of course, what you mean is 'forgiveness' for the things you've done, mercy in the face of your failings, love regardless of who you are and what you have been.

I find it intriguing that you don't believe your god is capable of the level of empathy to forgive, be merciful, and love those who commit suicide. For me, I often see hints in ardent believers that their God is really just their ego expressed in cosmic terms.

Maybe I could better understand you if your could explain to me what your idea of heaven or eternal paradise is.

A fictional carrot and stick used to cow illiterate peasants into submission.

Or do you mean the idea of heaven perpetuated by Christian dogma?

These are very different things, you understand?

Animals eat their young, Sparhafoc. They defecate and masturbate in front of each other. Are you saying homosexuals behave like animals? So it's ok? That's a weird argument.

Where did I say that homosexuals behave like animals, TNTF? If you want to write vapid prejudice, have the decency to fucking own it.

Rather, we are all animals, TNTD - you, me, every human being that's ever lived.

And you believe that your God made these animals, created them according to a plan, and that your God declared them 'good'.

So the consequence of your belief is that animals eating their young, masturbating and defecating in front of each other... all are designed and implemented by the ineffable Creator of the universe.

Or do you want your cake and eat it? Cherrypick the good bits and declare those designed by God, then declare all the other stuff what... 'fallen'?

Prior to original sin, do you imagine animals went off to hide to take a shit, TNTD?

Perhaps I am wrong, but it seems like you don't want to address the fact that thousands of species have been observed engaging in homosexual behavior. It's as natural as sticking your cock where your proclivity resides.

I was just pointing out the fact that I am Christian for no particular reason other than reminding everyone that I am Christian(I tend to do this from time to time.)

With respect, I find that highly questionable. It's easy to toss a label out, but when the contents don't match the label, the simplest explanation is false advertising.

Would God be less angry at a non-Christian for committing suicide? I can't think of how to answer this right now. How is this important?

None of it's important, TNTD - we're talking about a fairy tale. However, that fairy tale motivates your beliefs and is at the root of many justifications you use for your positions. As such, when I spot an inconsistency or contradiction, I want to poke at it to find out what's underlying it.

My position is simple: if you subscribe to a religion, then that religion's proscriptions apply to you - but they don't apply to those not subscribing to that religion. Ergo, you can tell Christians that committing suicide is wrong because they buy into your beliefs, but to then try to impel non-Christians to adhere to your belief system's proscriptions is a small step away from theocracy.

Following this notion, would God also be angry with you if you drove poorly, crashed your car, and killed yourself. Albeit an unintentional result, you still personally created the circumstances which lead to your death.

No.

So it's literally just intent?

So if I drive at 150 miles an hour with my eyes closed, fully intent on not crashing but end up dying, then it's hunky dory with God who wouldn't consider it a morally equivalent to suicide?

How very odd your belief system is when you poke at it.

You were a Christian? Why did you decide to become a Christian back then? (Sorry to answer your question with more questions)

I didn't 'decide' - I was raised sort-of-Christian like most people in the UK at that time. I went to Sunday School when I was a kid. I sang in the local church's choir. My mum is a sort-of-believer, and my dad is a non-believer.

I didn't decide to become a Christian, but studying the Bible ensured I had no further interest in calling myself one. It took a few more years before I stopped believing that all life was created by a magical entity when I started studying human evolution and the belief systems of other cultures.

That's all I have Sparhafoc, though I did read the rest of your post. Sounds like you have an interesting life. I hope everything goes well with you.

And for you, cheers. Wie lange haben sie in deutschland gelebt?

 

[thenexttodie]

Wie lange haben sie in deutschland gelebt?

Ich vergessan. Not long enough to feel that wearing brown shoes, yellow pants with a red shirt is in anyway fashionable. But I love Germany.

Thank you. I disagree with you but I feel your last post makes things clear enough to where a reply is really not needed. Probably many of the things we talked about will eventually be continued in other threads.