Spirituality, and why I don't understand it...

[xchillx42]

Atheistmind's recent video got me thinking about spirituality and personally, I don't understand it... A 'spirit' is designated as a sort of invisible essence that makes living 'possible', so, what is spirituality, is it getting in touch with this spirit. But how can you get in touch with it if you don't know what, where, or how it exists its like worshipping a god without the bible, or any prior explanation as to what you are worshipping and how to worship it. Are you worshipping the electrical energy that allows communication within your body? Some higher power? The possibilities are endless.

I just don't see why we have to have a spiritual side at all, in a way, isn't existence enough. Isn't the fact that we are just an atom in what could be an infinite sea of other various sized atoms. The fact that that everything is made up of things so small you just can't even imagine. The fact out lives are governed by the way these things interact and combine enough?

Just think, our position in the universe, what we are, think how we came to be and what we are made of in a literal sense, without spirituality or a god. Soon enough you will see that we don't need to belive in anything, we need to believe in the fact that we just are. stop trying to pretend that there is a 'higher power' or some sort of mystical force, they make good storeys but they just aren't plausible.

Why do we, as humans, always think we are the centre of the universe and that there is something that is going to miss us when we will eventually die out, because the cold hard fact, is that there is nothing. If humans, life as we know it was just extinguished tomorrow, the earth would keep on spinning and continue on its path around the sun which will keep on burning which will keep on shining and maybe, just maybe reach someone else's telescopes, and they won't matter either, but chances are, they will think they do. Just like this arrogant race.

We aren't even a blip on the radar, not even a speck of dust dancing in the light, not even a grain of sand on the sea bed.

Just stop, think, accept, and enjoy the rest of your life, because you and other humans are the only ones that even care about our existence, that's the way it is, has and always will be.

 

[borrofburi]

Re: Spirituality, and why I do't understand it...

Atheistmind's recent video got me thinking about spirituality and personally, I don't understand it... A 'spirit' is designated as a sort of invisible essence that makes living 'possible', so, what is spirituality, is it getting in touch with this spirit. But how can you get in touch with it if you don't know what, where, or how it exists its like worshipping a god without the bible, or any prior explanation as to what you are worshipping and how to worship it. Are you worshipping the electrical energy that allows communication within your body? Some higher power? The possibilities are endless.

Uh, these mostly address modern interpretations of the bible and modern christianity. Take an anthropology of religion course and see the very very diverse forms of "spirituality" and the supernatural that have arisen over the millenia among mankind, it's really hard for me to go in depth, when it took me weeks to learn what I know, and I only have a cursory understanding of the subject.

Basically what it seems like you are thinking is "spirituality is religion without god, how on earth does that work?", which is fundamentally the wrong approach. More accurately, the better question is why does current religion have a high supreme being, because that is the more recent development. There is some evidence that yahweh was never originally the only god, but rather just a warrior god that the jewish people made a pact with; as an analogy imagine the greek pantheon in which zeus/jupiter wasn't the clear "head-god" and power was more balanced, now imagine a set of greeks making a contract with Ares/Mars to worship only him.

Generally speaking, the majority of "religions" don't actually have a supreme being, and instead think of a spiritual metaphysical world with a different set of rules. Some religions think that every living thing has a soul, others think spirits reside in places of extreme beauty like waterfalls; look at the middle eastern idea of Jinn, which live, die, have families, and generally act very human. The psychological school of thought would say that these are all projections of human psyche.

Mostly I'm rambling on now, but from somewhat naive and misguided statements like "a 'spirit' is... essence that makes living 'possible'", it seems that your primarily problem here is lack of knowledge.

I just don't see why we have to have a spiritual side at all, in a way, isn't existence enough. Isn't the fact that we are just an atom in what could be an infinite sea of other various sized atoms. The fact that that everything is made up of things so small you just can't even imagine. The fact out lives are governed by the way these things interact and combine enough?[.quote]
Again, this is because of how we evolved over the millenia that we have a strong affinity for "spirituality", primarily because it functionally brings humans together and makes them more likely to cooperate, granting a competitive advantage (at least according to functionalists).

Why do we, as humans, always think we are the centre of the universe and that there is something that is going to miss us when we will eventually die out, because the cold hard fact, is that there is nothing.

Death is distressing, religion can be a very strong coping mechanism to deal with that. People who reject religion have to find their own coping mechanisms, and some don't succeed and end up afraid of death every day of their life. Not everyone can simply think "when I die I'll simply cease to exist, and in 50 years no one will remember me and the impact I had on the world", and be ok with that. I would argue because they see life as a goal or an entity with an objective, so in a christian worl dthe objective is to get to heaven, but when they lose that objective what is left, to be remembered? It's because they fundamentally see life in this, flawed, manner that they can't simply accept that they'll die, cease to exist, and that's it. (as an aside, I would point everyone to this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERbvKrH-GC4 )

In summary,
it seems you don't understand spirituality because you don't know the variety of ways it exists worldwide and how it arose, leading to anachronistic analysis (by thinking "spirit currently means: ... so how could spirituality without god work?); people can't accept that death is the end because they see life as something with an end objective like a race.

 

[xchillx42]

Re: Spirituality, and why I do't understand it...

In response to Borrofburi's reply:

I liked reading this, but I think you missed the point a little, my message wan't 'I don't understand spirituality because its like a religion without a god' I was saying 'I don't understand spirituality because it has no point'.

 

[borrofburi]

Re: Spirituality, and why I do't understand it...

I liked reading this, but I think you missed the point a little, my message wan't 'I don't understand spirituality because its like a religion without a god' I was saying 'I don't understand spirituality because it has no point'.

Fine, then you don't understand it because you don't understand how it arose. It's easy to have all the answers we have today with scientific knowledge and go "why would I believe in spirits and mysticism and supernatural?", however that's not how it arose.

So why do people still accept it now? Firstly because these initial ideas of the supernatural have gotten to be complex and detailed traditions that appeal to humanity (via memetic natural selection), and secondly because not everyone has the rational mind to understand science, as well as *many* people on this planet would choose happy delusion over unhappy reality.

 

[jrparri]

Re: Spirituality, and why I do't understand it...

A truly excellent response, Borrofburi. I touched on this on another thread - how the whole concept of "spiritual" vs "tangible" is a recent separation... & I'm not going to rehash it here, since Borrofburi has done it more clearly than I did anyway (imo).

But I will add something that's missing:

It's easy to have all the answers we have today with scientific knowledge and go "why would I believe in spirits and mysticism and supernatural?", however that's not how it arose.

//Insert:
What we call "spirit" today were (are) symbols, explanations, elaborations, stories, and assumptions about the everyday world. There was no "this is spiritual, but this is 'real'" -- there was only "this is the way it is."
Many of these just-so stories endure despite having better explanations - the human "soul" or spirit in 'western' culture often survives the abandonment of complex religious beliefs, simply because people regard it as the symbol/explanation/elaboration of the absoluteness and continuity of their own selves. That's hard to let go of.

So why do people still accept it now? Firstly because these initial ideas of the supernatural have gotten to be complex and detailed traditions that appeal to humanity (via memetic natural selection), and secondly because not everyone has the rational mind to understand science, as well as *many* people on this planet would choose happy delusion over unhappy reality.

 

[Niocan]

Atheistmind's recent video got me thinking about spirituality and personally, I don't understand it... A 'spirit' is designated as a sort of invisible essence that makes living 'possible', so, what is spirituality, is it getting in touch with this spirit. But how can you get in touch with it if you don't know what, where, or how it exists its like worshipping a god without the bible, or any prior explanation as to what you are worshipping and how to worship it. Are you worshipping the electrical energy that allows communication within your body? Some higher power? The possibilities are endless.

My take on it would be:
Spirituality is the art of learning thyself. It isn't used to explain something away, it's giving language for you to use. Call it what you will, and apply it to yourself.

I just don't see why we have to have a spiritual side at all, in a way, isn't existence enough. Isn't the fact that we are just an atom in what could be an infinite sea of other various sized atoms. The fact that that everything is made up of things so small you just can't even imagine. The fact out lives are governed by the way these things interact and combine enough?

It's enough if you don't want to interact with it, and to do so one needs the appropriate tools. You work with the physical world through experiments, so why not work with the spiritual (the Self) through thought and language? Schools haven't taught you how to, so don't look to them for the answer.

Just think, our position in the universe, what we are, think how we came to be and what we are made of in a literal sense, without spirituality or a god. Soon enough you will see that we don't need to belive in anything, we need to believe in the fact that we just are. stop trying to pretend that there is a 'higher power' or some sort of mystical force, they make good storeys but they just aren't plausible.

This is a false view on the universe; There's no consolidated power, because it's a balance between order and disorder. God, then, is the projection of greater order; It's our drive for order which is not only possible, but inherent.

Why do we, as humans, always think we are the centre of the universe and that there is something that is going to miss us when we will eventually die out, because the cold hard fact, is that there is nothing. If humans, life as we know it was just extinguished tomorrow, the earth would keep on spinning and continue on its path around the sun which will keep on burning which will keep on shining and maybe, just maybe reach someone else's telescopes, and they won't matter either, but chances are, they will think they do. Just like this arrogant race.

I'm partial to the holographic / fractal universe, which means that every point in the universe is the center. It's a rather empowering viewpoint spiritually because we then represent the infinite above and below in this resolution of existence. Recognizing this shouldn't be viewed as an act of arrogance, but using this fact to usurp someone else's view is; Seeing as how we're *all* the center of our own universes. We shouldn't worry about the rest of the world when the only thing that matters is yourself.

Just stop, think, accept, and enjoy the rest of your life, because you and other humans are the only ones that even care about our existence, that's the way it is, has and always will be.

Inevitability exists only if we accept it, and spirituality is the cause of learning thyself to guide the effect changing thyself.

Spirituality is a tool to be used for self improvement, would be my simple response to clear this all up Let me know what you think.

 

[xchillx42]

Niocan: You missed my point, I'm not looking for spirituality, I'm saying how irrelevant and silly it is compared to an abcence of spirityality, and realisticly, spiritual people are serching for something you can't ever find. You can belive you have found it, but you can't believe you have a car if you don't have one.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

You missed my point, I'm not looking for spirituality, I'm saying how irrelevant and silly it is compared to an abcence of spirityality, and realisticly, spiritual people are serching for something you can't ever find. You can belive you have found it, but you can't believe you have a car if you don't have one.

If I'm reading you right, you seem to be saying that "spirituality" is the search for the answer to a question that doesn't actually mean anything?

I don't get spirituality... it seems like an excuse to believe all of the egotistical parts of religion, while at the same time not tying yourself to any of the dogmas or specific claims that are more obviously stupid and easily refuted.

 

[Niocan]

Spirituality is religion without the corruption and dogma; It isn't a set in stone commandment you must adhear to, nor a fictional concept. It's a guide book for living life and can be better thought of as analytical psychology on thyself (Do what thou wilt with Love as the Law). The first lesson is to lose the ego, so Joe doesn't get it

 

[nasher168]

The first lesson is to lose the ego, so Joe doesn't get it

Ad Hominem, anyone?

It's a guide book for living life

You may have noticed that most people on this forum prefer not to use external guide books as a source of morality. Most of us tend to do what seems to be the good thing to do at the time.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Ad Hominem, anyone?

I guess that's what you have to do when your arguments are fucking garbage... that, and then start whining because I used the word "fucking." :lol:

"Spirituality" is garbage... just superstitious nonsense that people cling to in place of thinking and standing up as adults.

 

[Niocan]

It's a guide book for living life and can be better thought of as analytical psychology on thyself

You're saying people aren't capable of self diagnosis and can't figure their own lives out for themselves? For the most part sure, because many people today are empty shells of people but the process itself isn't invalided.

You read textbooks to help you learn the information needed, so why don't you read psychology books to learn the information and construct it so you better yourself.
Spirituality is the outcome.

 

[scalyblue]

That word you keep using, you know, "ego"...I don't think it means what you think it means. Kinda funny, considering how you're trying to tout some supposed knowledge in psychology.

 

[nasher168]

You're saying people aren't capable of self diagnosis and can't figure their own lives out for themselves?

No, I'm saying that I consider it a better idea to make it up as you go along. That way you can adjust to any situation. No guides save your own sense of decency.

 

[xchillx42]

Spirituality is religion without the corruption and dogma; It isn't a set in stone commandment you must adhear to, nor a fictional concept. It's a guide book for living life and can be better thought of as analytical psychology on thyself (Do what thou wilt with Love as the Law). The first lesson is to lose the ego, so Joe doesn't get it

You can't have a religion without dogma...

Why do you keep on saying 'thy' as well, its sort of creepy, you just jump from the 5th century or something, its old English...

 

[ImprobableJoe]

You can't have a religion without dogma...

Why do you keep on saying 'thy' as well, its sort of creepy, you just jump from the 5th century or something, its old English...

Well, as long as someone is using obsolete ways of looking at the world, they might as well use obsolete language too? :lol:

 

[OnkelCannabia]

I think the reason why spiritualism seams so nonsensical too anybody who is not in the movement is because they use words in a very obscure way. My sister is spiritual so I have some experience with this. I guess they don't want to give up the parts of religion they like and renaming "boring" words with religious makes the world seem more interesting. Connotations can be very powerful and words like god, purpose, soul etc have very strong connotations. So they say they believe in god, in the soul etc, but to them these words mean sth different. It's also hard to decipher when they are using analogies (love and fear? Are you oversimplifying things a little or is that what you actually mean?) or other literary devices and when they actually really mean what they say . In fact, I believe one of the major flaws of postmodernism and spiritualism is an extremely unparsimonious use of words to the extent where they fail to communicate with anybody outside the movement, confuse themselves and create countless logical fallacy (philosophy is highly dependent on an abstract understanding of words).

I've heard various interpretations of spiritualism and some of them seem to be quite rational (Most of them aren't though ). They simply say that religious rituals/a religious way of living improve their life in some way. Meditation makes it easier to control their emotions, praying gives them hope, worship makes them happy and spiritualism brings them together. For me that would never work. I'd feel like a complete moron praying to sth that isn't there and I see no reason why you couldn't have these things without spirituality. But if it helps them, it makes sense from a pragmatic point of view. I've even met some spiritual ppl who were atheists with a very skeptical, scientific mind. Admittedly, they are a minority and most of the others are much more prone to believe superstitious BS.

So what I'm trying to say is: Maybe Niocan would make more sense than we think, if he tried to sound less like a postmodern fortune cookie. I am to lazy to decipher his writing though.

PS: One thing that bothers me in many of the discussions here: I'd agree that it is important to call ppl out on their BS, but many posters here do it in an unnecessarily rude way. I tend to tell ppl in a very civil and friendly way when they are full of shit.

 

[xchillx42]

Well, as long as someone is using obsolete ways of looking at the world, they might as well use obsolete language too? :lol:

LoL! =P

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I think the reason why spiritualism seams so nonsensical too anybody who is not in the movement is because they use words in a very obscure way. My sister is spiritual so I have some experience with this. I guess they don't want to give up the parts of religion they like and renaming "boring" words with religious makes the world seem more interesting. Connotations can be very powerful and words like god, purpose, soul etc have very strong connotations. So they say they believe in god, in the soul etc, but to them these words mean sth different. It's also hard to decipher when they are using analogies (love and fear? Are you oversimplifying things a little or is that what you actually mean?) or other literary devices and when they actually really mean what they say . In fact, I believe one of the major flaws of postmodernism and spiritualism is an extremely unparsimonious use of words to the extent where they fail to communicate with anybody outside the movement, confuse themselves and create countless logical fallacy (philosophy is highly dependent on an abstract understanding of words).

I've heard various interpretations of spiritualism and some of them seem to be quite rational (Most of them aren't though ). They simply say that religious rituals/a religious way of living improve their life in some way. Meditation makes it easier to control their emotions, praying gives them hope, worship makes them happy and spiritualism brings them together. For me that would never work. I'd feel like a complete moron praying to sth that isn't there and I see no reason why you couldn't have these things without spirituality. But if it helps them, it makes sense from a pragmatic point of view. I've even met some spiritual ppl who were atheists with a very skeptical, scientific mind. Admittedly, they are a minority and most of the others are much more prone to believe superstitious BS.

So what I'm trying to say is: Maybe Niocan would make more sense than we think, if he tried to sound less like a postmodern fortune cookie. I am to lazy to decipher his writing though.

I consider that obscurity to be a feature, not a defect. It is intentional vagueness, dishonest twisting of language to provide a "shield of incoherence" that resists rational analysis. After all, the thinking goes, you can't criticize something that you don't understand... so they make sure that NO ONE understands it... sometimes, I suspect the believers themselves don't understand their own claims. In that case, I wonder how they can believe something that they don't even understand. In that case, I think they believe in the idea of belief, and the focus of that belief is secondary or even irrelevant.

PS: One thing that bothers me in many of the discussions here: I'd agree that it is important to call ppl out on their BS, but many posters here do it in an unnecessarily rude way. I tend to tell ppl in a very civil and friendly way when they are full of shit.

Fuck politeness! :lol:

 

[Niocan]

I think the reason why spiritualism seams so nonsensical too anybody who is not in the movement is because they use words in a very obscure way. My sister is spiritual so I have some experience with this. I guess they don't want to give up the parts of religion they like and renaming "boring" words with religious makes the world seem more interesting.

The reason is to hide their meaning This may seem counterintuitive but it's a fantastic way to hide from the layman and church. It also serves the purpose of unifying different ideologies, because there are many different ways to express just one thing. Most if not all religions have a very common theme, and it's this theme that we attach the symbols to (Based on how we view it).

In a way, it's giving a language to our intuition (Or, it's the 'logic' of the 'right brain').

Connotations can be very powerful and words like god, purpose, soul etc have very strong connotations. So they say they believe in god, in the soul etc, but to them these words mean sth different. It's also hard to decipher when they are using analogies (love and fear? Are you oversimplifying things a little or is that what you actually mean?) or other literary devices and when they actually really mean what they say.

I'm not oversimplifying it, Love and fear are literally the only two emotions one can feel with the rest being different combinations of the two. It's getting into the dualism aspect of the universe, and you can interchange Love and fear with Order and disorder; Yin and yang; etc.

In fact, I believe one of the major flaws of postmodernism and spiritualism is an extremely unparsimonious use of words to the extent where they fail to communicate with anybody outside the movement, confuse themselves and create countless logical fallacy (philosophy is highly dependent on an abstract understanding of words).

I'm interested to see if you changed this view from what I said above, have you?

I've heard various interpretations of spiritualism and some of them seem to be quite rational (Most of them aren't though ). They simply say that religious rituals/a religious way of living improve their life in some way. Meditation makes it easier to control their emotions, praying gives them hope, worship makes them happy and spiritualism brings them together.
For me that would never work. I'd feel like a complete moron praying to sth that isn't there and I see no reason why you couldn't have these things without spirituality. But if it helps them, it makes sense from a pragmatic point of view. I've even met some spiritual ppl who were atheists with a very skeptical, scientific mind. Admittedly, they are a minority and most of the others are much more prone to believe superstitious BS.

It's sad to live in a world with so much disinformation going around trying to capture people in endless regressions of disempowerment, but there are some who still get it If there's anything to keep in mind about Spirituality, it's that Everything is within. People can / should / do use everything available to them to understand themselves but ultimately it's just giving language to their inner voice; Which isn't bad, as it's the only way to do it, but if you rely on those objects instead of your voice you may give in to materialism.

So what I'm trying to say is: Maybe Niocan would make more sense than we think, if he tried to sound less like a postmodern fortune cookie. I am to lazy to decipher his writing though.

That's the point ^.~ If you have questions, ask.