Should selcularists celebrate Christmas?

[Aught3]

I mean, the thing is, Christmas is a christian holiday. However, it's been inextricably tied to society, and has been propagated mainly as for kids. This is obviously 'cuz the presents. Of course, this leads to commercializing. Christmas isn't about god anymore, and the token nativity scenes don't cut it. Church attendance goes up on christmas, but that increase gets smaller every year. All the time, christmas is becoming secular. There is no way to stop it, and refusing to celebrate it on the basis of it's roots...

Arrrgh! I was agreeing with you up to this point :lol: It's not because of the roots of Christmas is because of what Christmas represents now. You even go on to say that Christmas is not fully secularised and that we may see the religious aspects retreat further, but that's my problem with it, they haven't retreated yet. The religious aspects are still there in every community that makes a big deal of celebrating this Christmas holiday. If we lived in China or Japan where Christianity wasn't a big part of public life then there would be less of a problem with celebrating Christmas. I actually quite enjoy Diwali even though I'm not a Hindu, but there is no problem with the Hindu religion in our countries. There is a problem with Christianity and it needs to retreat further out of public life. By helping to celebrate the birth of its founder, we are propping up Christianity and giving it more visibility and ubiquity than it should have in a secular society.

Also, Santa is Jesus. Santa knows everything you do, kids ask for things from him, and he judges whether or not you've been good. He's Jesus lite.

 

[Giliell]

Surely the amazing end of year celebration is New Years? It's a time to remember the past year and welcome in the new one. Plus, I still think spending time with family in Summer would be better all round. A lot of people seem to be mentioning presents, I would point out that gift-giving causes a huge deadweight-loss to the economy, something to think about :lol:

Durakken, I can't figure out what you're point is. You're post is very confused, has vague 'facts', and strange causal connections. One point I would make is that celebrating the death and renewal of winter is not a particularly good reason to have a celebration in December (or June) because surviving the winter is just not that difficult anymore.

No, surviving winter has become easy for most of us (unless you're homeless or live in Russia or both).
But it's still dark and gloomy.
You don't spend much time outside, daylight is scarce, not much green around, you don't make many visits...
So you could say that we in the northern hemisphere have a psychological need for christmas.
People put up lights, the world becomes less dark.
We decorate our homes with firtrees, holly and mitletoes, they become greener.
We go to visit the people we love, so we get this warm, cosy feeling.
Christmas IS a celebration of hope, but not of "a saviour", but of spring, of longer days and green trees and more time out and about.

 

[borrofburi]

What I am saying is the reason behind the celebration is the problem. Christianity is the dominant religion in our society and its adherents cause many issues. By celebrating Christmas (even a secularised version) you contribute to the over-inflated perception of this religion's dominance. Having Christianity lose some of its influence can only be a good outcome for those desiring a secular society. If the Golden rule were widely accepted only because Jesus said it, I would have a problem with it too.

And that's what "we" are disagreeing with (I don't speak for anyone else, I am simply trying to illuminate what I perceive to be my position which is also held by others in this thread): that we celebrate at this time of year solely because of christianity. Indeed, I would agree with the statement that celebrations this time of year are about as heavily influenced by christianity as the golden rule is accepted solely because of jesus christ. The fact is, it's a cold, dark, depressing, lonely, and scary time of the year, and thus essentially every culture and every religion has some form of celebration at around this time of year; if jews had been dominant we would still be celebrating right around now, if ___ had been dominant, we would still be celebrating around now.

Or, in short, I do *not* agree with the statement that the only reason we have celebrations around this time of year is because christianity is dominant.

 

[Nogre]

You even go on to say that Christmas is not fully secularised and that we may see the religious aspects retreat further, but that's my problem with it, they haven't retreated yet.

Christians will continue to put their god into everything, and we will continue to take their god out of everything they inject him into. I don't see how rejecting the holiday as a whole achieves anything; I'd rather stick with the enjoyable holiday and force them to take their god crap and get it out of Christmas.

 

[Aught3]

No, surviving winter has become easy for most of us (unless you're homeless or live in Russia or both).
But it's still dark and gloomy.
You don't spend much time outside, daylight is scarce, not much green around, you don't make many visits...
So you could say that we in the northern hemisphere have a psychological need for christmas.
People put up lights, the world becomes less dark.
We decorate our homes with firtrees, holly and mitletoes, they become greener.
We go to visit the people we love, so we get this warm, cosy feeling.
Christmas IS a celebration of hope, but not of "a saviour", but of spring, of longer days and green trees and more time out and about.

Surely that's countered by everyone in the Southern hemisphere who celebrate Christmas in the Summer and the vast majority of these people who do not have any celebration in the middle of winter.

Or, in short, I do *not* agree with the statement that the only reason we have celebrations around this time of year is because christianity is dominant.

Forget the idea of 'other celebrations around this time of year'. I'm talking about Christmas specifically and the cultural traditions that go along with it.

Christians will continue to put their god into everything, and we will continue to take their god out of everything they inject him into. I don't see how rejecting the holiday as a whole achieves anything; I'd rather stick with the enjoyable holiday and force them to take their god crap and get it out of Christmas.

I will grudgingly admit that this approach has some merit, but most people wouldn't consciously attempt to remove the religious aspects from their celebrations. They instead contribute to the perception that (virtually) everyone in our society approves of this Christian festival and provide a tacit endorsement of this religion.

 

[Giliell]

Surely that's countered by everyone in the Southern hemisphere who celebrate Christmas in the Summer and the vast majority of these people who do not have any celebration in the middle of winter.

Which might explain why we "Northerners" defend it more vigorously :lol:
Are you sure that the idigenous people there never had or don't have any celebrations for winter solstice?
It's clear that the setlers and their descendents don't have, because they took their traditions and religion and forced it on everybody else, and good traditions don't grow on trees, but what about those people who were there before?


BTW, this year more Germans plan to watch TV on christmas eve than want to go to church

 

[Aught3]

Are you sure that the idigenous people there never had or don't have any celebrations for winter solstice?

The only celebration among the southern hemisphere aboriginals that I am aware of is Matariki. This celebration occurs around the winter solstice but since the calendar is based on the moon the date changes every year. It celebrates the rise of the Matariki star system in the sky which was used as a navigational aid and signals the start of a new year. It wouldn't surprise me to find that aborigines from South Africa, South America, Australia, and the Pacific Islands might have a midwinter festival from a time where it was difficult to survive winter but unless it has some other significance (start of a new year) its probably not a big deal anymore.

It's clear that the setlers and their descendents don't have, because they took their traditions and religion and forced it on everybody else

and this highlights the point that Christmas celebrations weren't about winter but about religious aspects that applied no matter what the season was.

 

[Giliell]

and this highlights the point that Christmas celebrations weren't about winter but about religious aspects that applied no matter what the season was.

No, I disagree
You take your celebrations and traditions with you and you hold onto them because they make you comfy and make the place you're in "home".
Believe me, when I lived abroad I even started following traditions I never heed to at home

 

[TheFearmonger]

Arrrgh! I was agreeing with you up to this point :lol: It's not because of the roots of Christmas is because of what Christmas represents now. You even go on to say that Christmas is not fully secularised and that we may see the religious aspects retreat further, but that's my problem with it, they haven't retreated yet. The religious aspects are still there in every community that makes a big deal of celebrating this Christmas holiday. If we lived in China or Japan where Christianity wasn't a big part of public life then there would be less of a problem with celebrating Christmas. I actually quite enjoy Diwali even though I'm not a Hindu, but there is no problem with the Hindu religion in our countries. There is a problem with Christianity and it needs to retreat further out of public life. By helping to celebrate the birth of its founder, we are propping up Christianity and giving it more visibility and ubiquity than it should have in a secular society.

Also, Santa is Jesus. Santa knows everything you do, kids ask for things from him, and he judges whether or not you've been good. He's Jesus lite.

:lol: It's cool. but see, here we approach a perceived problem differently. Whereas you feel a boycott of sort will acheive the desired result, I think doing so only reanimates it's dead jew zombie tradition(sorry for the pun ). I suspect we have the sort of fundamental disagreement here that only someone arguing with americans can have :mrgreen: . It just seems a little rash to withdraw from something that does so much good, especially when the main problem in it is going away. And it is retreating. The last christmas, my pastor and i got into a discussion on the subject of the religiousness expressed by people during christmas time, like how some people only come on christmas, and so It's important to have a strong salvation message, ect. One thing that kept being brought back up was how disappointed he was at the decline in recent years. So, yeah, even in the bible belt, this religious attitude towards the holiday is dwindling. That says to me that this is secularizing. If it's changing, and so rapidly, why abandon the attempt, and put it back in religious spotlight? Tell me your thoughts, although I have no pence.

ps santa isn't jesus... everyone knows JESUS isn't real...duh! :roll: :lol:

 

[Nogre]

I will grudgingly admit that this approach has some merit, but most people wouldn't consciously attempt to remove the religious aspects from their celebrations. They instead contribute to the perception that (virtually) everyone in our society approves of this Christian festival and provide a tacit endorsement of this religion.

Just because something may be difficult or less likely to be done by some doesn't mean you don't take that path. We shouldn't let Christians force us out of a very enjoyable holiday that leads to a significant amount of time spent with our families when we otherwise wouldn't be. Plus, all the giving that's done around this time is great for society. I think it's far more preferable to show the Christians that they can't lay claim to anything that isn't purely religious any more. Not cultural holidays, not family time, not morality, and not anything else, other then their fairy tales about a magic man in the sky. Religion is necessary for nothing good in society, and we shouldn't deny ourselves anything because they lay claim to it, especially illegitimate claim.

 

[Durakken]

The biggest problem I have with Christmas is the idea that good will and giving gifts should be done on special days and not every day of the year, which was mentioned earlier.

 

[nemesiss]

I will grudgingly admit that this approach has some merit, but most people wouldn't consciously attempt to remove the religious aspects from their celebrations. They instead contribute to the perception that (virtually) everyone in our society approves of this Christian festival and provide a tacit endorsement of this religion.

Just because something may be difficult or less likely to be done by some doesn't mean you don't take that path. We shouldn't let Christians force us out of a very enjoyable holiday that leads to a significant amount of time spent with our families when we otherwise wouldn't be. Plus, all the giving that's done around this time is great for society. I think it's far more preferable to show the Christians that they can't lay claim to anything that isn't purely religious any more. Not cultural holidays, not family time, not morality, and not anything else, other then their fairy tales about a magic man in the sky. Religion is necessary for nothing good in society, and we shouldn't deny ourselves anything because they lay claim to it, especially illegitimate claim.

i could care less if there is a nativity scene or not, if its not there i wont miss it.

they had the same issue with sinterklaas... but no one like the idea.
not because their prochristian, but because sinterklaas has been so detached to christianity that it doesnt matter.
his message: "be a nice person and you'll be rewarded".

thats totally different from "believe in jesus or you'll go to hell!"

 

[RestrictedAccess]

As long as the religion stays out of my government I don't care how prevalent it is in Western society.

One way or another I'm going to have a Merry Christmas, darn it. A very Merry Bah Humbug to you, sir. :lol:

 

[MillionSword]

If I didn't celebrate christmas I'd probably feel like something was missing. Especially since my family celebrates it. If anything it would be for the sake of tradition. It's a nice occasion and I like it, even if it is part of christianity.