Should selcularists celebrate Christmas?

[Aught3]

As a secularist I am dismayed when I see one group of people exerting undue influence on society. In many countries, one of the institutions that has the most influence is religion. My question for secularists is: does celebrating Christmas contribute to the perceived power of Christianity in public life? Christmas is clearly a Christian holy-day representing the birth of Jesus and although many of the particular rituals have been appropriated from other religions they are now a tradition of Christianity. Other religious holidays such as Ramadan, Diwali, or Hunnakah can be easily ignored by those who do not adhere to the particular religion, Christmas is pervasive in Western society. Christmas is constantly on TV, the radio, and in public life, it is impossible to ignore. Especially for adherents of other faiths and those who have none.

If you are an atheist then by celebrating a religious holiday you are promoting a particular religion, if that religion already has an undue influence on society then you are contributing to the problem. That's right, I'm trying to steal Christmas :mrgreen:

 

[TheFearmonger]

As a secularist I am dismayed when I see one group of people exerting undue influence on society. In many countries, one of the institutions that has the most influence is religion. My question for secularists is: does celebrating Christmas contribute to the perceived power of Christianity in public life? Christmas is clearly a Christian holy-day representing the birth of Jesus and although many of the particular rituals have been appropriated from other religions they are now a tradition of Christianity. Other religious holidays such as Ramadan, Diwali, or Hunnakah can be easily ignored by those who do not adhere to the particular religion, Christmas is pervasive in Western society. Christmas is constantly on TV, the radio, and in public life, it is impossible to ignore. Especially for adherents of other faiths and those who have none.

If you are an atheist then by celebrating a religious holiday you are promoting a particular religion, if that religion already has an undue influence on society then you are contributing to the problem. That's right, I'm trying to steal Christmas :mrgreen:

Frickin' Grinch... :mrgreen:

I understand your beef, but at the same time, christmas has become so commercialized, that it doesn't matter very much the roots. Lots of non christians celebrate it, and enjoy it for the family time and everything else. I don't know about you, but I enjoy getting things in winter immensely, and I, as an atheist, therefore support this holiday. Besides, when else are fat guys in lingerie celebrated? :mrgreen:

 

[Nogre]

I see your problem... I recently attended the Trans-Siberian Orchestra, which performed live here in Salt Lake. See below for a sample of their music if you don't know who they are:



And despite the extremely rocking style of their music, they tell a very religious story about an angel's journey with their music, including instrumentals and lyrical songs going along with a narrative. I had mixed feelings, but eventually decided that I shouldn't treat these stories any differently than the stories about Santa Clause, Rudolf, and other silly Christmas stories. They can be entertaining and have quite a bit of inspiration to help others, especially at this time of year. To treat the religious fantasies differently kind of legitimizes them as something unique, and I just don't see the justification for that.

So while I won't be setting up a nativity or attending a church service, I plan on celebrating Christmas much as I did when I was a quasi-Christian in past years. I just recognize that it's all a bunch of fantasy that only has worth through entertainment and literary value. And I'll give anyone that asks me about that a straight answer.

Besides, I just love the lights:



And yes, that was another TSO song. What can I say? I love their music.

 

[ExeFBM]

Here's an alternative, Krismas http://krismas.org/

Celebrate the myths surrounding Kris Kringle, by sharing gifts with loved ones! Seriously tho, this is pretty much what Christmas has become anyway. The Jesus part is getting buried, just as the winter solstice was buried by the christians (in the uk anyway).

 

[TheFearmonger]

Besides, I just love the lights:
And yes, that was another TSO song. What can I say? I love their music.

Oh, yeah!! I KNEW there was a reason I liked you! Look up the christmas eve sarajevo on youtube, they have the official vid, and it is pretty darn cool.

But yeah, you bring up another good point. We all know they are just stories. So, should we abolish them because of that? And of course holidays empower a group, no one just says, "Oh, today is a holiday!" There is always a reason, and so it will always empower certain people. I say we keep, if for no other reason than my parents are terrible at keeping secrets, and I know what they bought, and I can't wait. :mrgreen: And I want to see if they like the stuff I got them. One of the presents, an extremely hard to find shirt of jeff gordon, took a few days(even with google! :shock: ) to find.

 

[Netheralian]

Christmas in the Netherlands seems to take a bit of a back seat to Sinterklaas and the extremely politically correct Zwarte Pete.

Although it is also based on religion to some degree it at least has no association with Christ or any of that crap. And there isn't any supernatural element to it. Christmas then just seems to be a public holiday...

 

[Giliell]

Man, I do love christmas

Besides, the christians stole it first, so I feel free to steal it back.

And I think the more popularity christmas gets, the less religious it will become. Look at countries like China and Japan, where Christmas is very popular, yet christianity not so much.
Christmas is huge in Turkey which is a prodominantly muslim country.
And in Germany, where I live, the churches are always shocked by the man on the street interview about the origin and meaning of christmas: People who consider themselves to be some sort of christians simply don't know :lol:
So it loses it's religious meaning more and more and will one day become another holiday more like Halloween.

 

[nemesiss]

Christmas in the Netherlands seems to take a bit of a back seat to Sinterklaas and the extremely politically correct Zwarte Pete.

Although it is also based on religion to some degree it at least has no association with Christ or any of that crap. And there isn't any supernatural element to it. Christmas then just seems to be a public holiday...

remember the gifts on 5 december?
kinda like santa the tradition is that on 5th of december (sinterklaas' birthday(?)) he brings presents the everyone.
yep, 1 day to bring present to everyone who've been good.
and this part of the story was also believed in before major postal offices were established to deal with the needed administration and manpower.

for those who see a similarity... yes there is a connection between sinterklaas and santa claus.

but atleast it is a festivity that anyone can join.
there is one thing that is sortof a rule in my household; NO christmas stuff BEFORE 6th of december.


anyway, i don't care much about christmas.
its just some time in the year to spend time with family.
one thing that bothers me alot is the peace part.

around christmas (almost) everyone joins in to a feeling of peace on earth.
then the next day and the rest of the year its all pillage,murder,war,death etc... y'know the way things normally work here on earth.
if everyone is so hellbend on peace on earth, why don't humans put more effort into it?

 

[Giliell]

@Nemesiss
Doesn't Sinterklaas start to deliver presents on the 6th and goes on through all of December?
That's a bit more logical, giving him a bit time

BTW, we have both in Germany: Nikolaus (Sinterclaas, Santa Claus) and Father Christmas. And I'm really looking forward to Nikolausabend next Saturday

 

[xman]

What are you gonna do, lock yourself in a basement all month? One could just as easily not celebrate summer.

My wife's family whom we spend the holidays with are all atheists, but that never stopped them from getting into the spirit. What my wife and I do is augment the season, already rich with two birthdays and three feasts, with a night out for solstice. Basically, in about two weeks we'll start celebrating on and off until January first, known as New Hangover Day. The winter solstice is the night with the most significance for me since the others don't really have any, 'cept for the birthdays and that doesn't really compare to solstice. Each of us gets our birthday whenever it comes, but everyone shares the solstice. The monotheists appropriated it from the polytheists who probably ripped it from some other pagans and we're stealing for ourselves. It's something that has been around longer than Christians. This is what I'll pass on to my son and I hope we can share many winter solstices together over nips of whiskey round the yule log.

I better include this just to appease the Old Ones.

 

[Giliell]

Basically, in about two weeks we'll start celebrating on and off until January first, known as New Hangover Day.

Wait, you're not actually a member of the "January first exists" conspiracy, trying to convince people there was such a day!
:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[nemesiss]

@Nemesiss
Doesn't Sinterklaas start to deliver presents on the 6th and goes on through all of December?
That's a bit more logical, giving him a bit time

BTW, we have both in Germany: Nikolaus (Sinterclaas, Santa Claus) and Father Christmas. And I'm really looking forward to Nikolausabend next Saturday

you'd think that would be more logical..
as the "game" goes, he sometimes gives out additional gift pre-5th december
on the 6th he goes back home to spain, where he alledgally(?) lives.

what we do additionally, is presents.
which is not the same as gifts.
its a weird lottery where you get together with the family and you draw lots to see you have to get a gift.
but you can't you give the gift... no!
you have to construct something of paper, glue and other stuff where you hide the gift in.

and on 5th of december you get together and have you present next to the regular gifts.
and each one gets their turn to get their present.
but he isn't allowed to open the present yet... oh no!
the reason for that is that he has to read out loud the (crappy) written peotry which somehow needs to sound like your praising that person for being nice even when everyone thinks thats bullshit.

hmm, perhaps i shouldn't write something festive when listening to george carlin

 

[DrunkCat]

Man, I do love christmas

Besides, the christians stole it first, so I feel free to steal it back.

And I think the more popularity christmas gets, the less religious it will become. Look at countries like China and Japan, where Christmas is very popular, yet christianity not so much.
Christmas is huge in Turkey which is a prodominantly muslim country.
And in Germany, where I live, the churches are always shocked by the man on the street interview about the origin and meaning of christmas: People who consider themselves to be some sort of christians simply don't know :lol:
So it loses it's religious meaning more and more and will one day become another holiday more like Halloween.

Halloween never really was religious but I agree with you the most.

I for one don't mind celebrating a day of goodwill at the doorstep of our planets harshest season. What I do have a giant problem with is starting the year on January 1. I don't understand why in the blue hell we are introducing a new year in the middle of what can be considered the 'death' season. It should be where it logically was at first with the first day of spring, which can be considered the 'birth' season.

 

[Aught3]

Wow, a lot of interesting and thoughtful replies to this topic.

The first point I want to address is to those who suggest some kind of secular alternative to the Christmas holiday: Krismas and solstice celebrations. These alternatives seem to be exactly the same a Christmas just without reference to Jesus. Santa, presents, yule logs, and feasts are all included, they are still ways of buying into the Christian celebration and promote the idea that the vast majority of people celebrate this religious holiday. If you come here during winter you will find very few people celebrating the solstice - making it half-way through winter just isn't a big deal anymore in our modern society. I don't know much about Sinterklaas but he seems like an interesting alternative, especially since it takes place before the 25th. Black pete is awesome too.

A couple of people made comments about Christmas occurring in winter, that's never been an issue for me since Christmas occurs in summer here. I think it's better to have this time spent off work and with family in the summer rather than winter. It avoids all the travel problems that occur this time of year and you can have a barbecue outside when the whole extended family comes around. Wouldn't it be better in the Northern hemisphere if everyone got a week off sometime in June and were encouraged to spend time with family?

What are you gonna do, lock yourself in a basement all month?

Nope, I'm going to try and raise people's consciousness to the idea that they are celebrating a Christian religious holiday even though they themselves are not religious. If they have a problem with the amount of influence and undue respect that this religion receives in public life, then it should be even easier to convince them to give it up.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

As long as I get presents!

 

[xman]

What are you gonna do, lock yourself in a basement all month?

Nope, I'm going to try and raise people's consciousness to the idea that they are celebrating a Christian religious holiday even though they themselves are not religious. If they have a problem with the amount of influence and undue respect that this religion receives in public life, then it should be even easier to convince them to give it up.

I don't think you're going to be successful there. Even the early xtians knew they couldn't stop the Saturnalia celebrations and you know what they say, "If you can't beat 'em ..." That philosophy worked out pretty well for them don't you think?

 

[Aught3]

I don't want to stop Christians from celebrating Christmas any more than I want to stop any other religious holiday. I just think that by celebrating Christmas when you don't believe in Christ you are contributing to the dominance of Christian thought in Western countries. Sure the Christians smiled and smiled and all the while were villains - but I don't have to act like that.

 

[nemesiss]

. I don't know much about Sinterklaas but he seems like an interesting alternative, especially since it takes place before the 25th. Black pete is awesome too.

Dont know if you can still hold that opinion after reading this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinterklaas
and a certain article here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Claus

 

[borrofburi]

If you come here during winter you will find very few people celebrating the solstice - making it half-way through winter just isn't a big deal anymore in our modern society.

As someone with Season Affective Disorder (self-diagnosed) you bet I'm celebrating the incoming longer days.

 

[xman]

... smiled and smiled and all the while were villains ...

Hamlet. Thank-you. And you have a point, but everybody gets the days off. Might as well ... well, join 'em as the saying goes. They get to maintain dominance by virtue of the political holidays. Do you want to insist that you work those days in lieu of others? Maybe we should petition for an end to state sanctioned religious holidays.