SEX!

[WolfAU]

"...think that men are more likely to be drawn in by the title!"

Thats the stereotype, which has merit but I think is kinda harmful to both genders, such as it leads to women feeling they need to downplay their sex drive, and men sometimes overstate their sex drive when in say, all male company. It also leads to men often getting accused of having alterior motives when doing things like being nice to a woman we just met.

I don't know much about specifics of neurochemistry on sex drive, and social learning is also a factor, but I believe men and women's sex drives are fairly comparable (at least in terms of say, a normal distribution), but that I think men may prefer more promiscuous sex, while women tend to prefer sex with partners they know and feel they trust (I'm generalising mind you, ie I fall into the later catagory). My mantra in gender issues is generally 'different, but comparable', ie we have slightly different behaviours, problems etc, but they all boil down to the same basic drives, desires, issues. Plus alot of difference is cultural.. but thats just my two cents.

re women getting equal pay... I find it hard to argue that without specifics, but the logic that; equal work = equal pay, is fair enough. However the issue of men being the primary breadwinner hasn't completely died out, and I'm not sure I want it to really...
- If both parents work and the children are raised latchkey style, this is bad for the children.
- If both parents don't work... no income
- This leaves some mixture of 'both work part time', 'one works fulltime, one works part time' or 'one works, one doesn't' being the main effective system for raising a family.

Also if we use the 'both parents work' approach, and this becomes norm, than that just leads to the cost of living rising to essentially require 2 full time jobs worth of income... nobody wins. My personal preference would be some balance of both parents working part time, which considering there was a big drive in Australia for more (white) babies, leading ot the baby bonus ($1000 AU per kid), they could've achieved the same effect by simply taking that money and making the system more user friendly for people trying to raise families (ie in terms of flexible hours). Also I get the initial logic of men work, women raise kids (ie men are stronger and alot of work was manual labour, education was expensive and really could only be given to select men etc), but most of those reasons no longer apply, and I think plenty of dads would want to spend more time with their kids (and the kids would likely be better for it).

re the trolls....... wierd

 

[Otokogoroshi]

From what I can dredge up from the far corners of my swiss cheese like memory, I think I recall most modern studies about sexuality and the differences between the genders is... there isn't near as much difference as people think. Such as, men and women both think about sex in equal amounts (over the average of course they'll always be people who break from the norm in either direction)

Me personally... I'm actually FAR more sexual than any of my friends, male and female... so I break the norm in the direction of hyper instead of hyposexual. Which probably leads into why I wouldn't think of a suggestive title being a draw for men over women! Awww perception... makes the world interesting.

See as a person who has a great relationship with their father, and a horrid one with their mother... the idea that the men should work while the women stay home upsets me for greater reasons than sexism. Kids need BOTH parents. Growing up my father was rarely around. To the point where I never spent Christmas day with him, at least not till I moved back in with him at the age of 19. Granted my mother worked too, but she was self employed so she had a very flexible schedule. But because of his old fashioned breadwinner mind set my dad was absent for most of my life.

Both parents need to be around and its not impossible or even all that hard to do. All it takes is a bit of schedule juggling really.




Well actually I take that back. It's easier for non-Americans because American companies are vile and evil when it comes to scheduling

 

[Mazzerkhan]

Anybody who things the feminist fight is over is obviously male. I don't think most men grasp, even in the "liberated" west, how overtly sexual their perception of women is. To be honest I don't know where to start with the rebuttals? The older i've become the more i see it. I personally think the west has just become more adept at hiding sexism than the east. Yes, things have changed and my daughter has been raised to believe she do any thing, as I was, however I can see already how because she is in to books and science that she is already being treated differently by her peer group, as I was. I have worked in a male dominated industry for nearly 15 years, I am one of the lads, but only because I have had to act like a man to gain acceptance. (Don't get me wrong i've had great fun and wouldn't swap a moment, but I am described by most men as intimidating and my nickname in work is "the silverback"). However I have heard comments passed about women and their work, that if said to a man would result in punching. men and their failings are never described in sexual terms. If i had a pound for every time I have heard strong women described as either dykes or frigid I could retire.
The reason so much money is spent on cosmetics etc is because the media and big corporations have rammed it down womens necks that to be a "proper female" you have to shave every bit of body hair, wear make up and smell nice. If you don't believe me boys, think what you'd do if you saw an unshaved female arm pit...

 

[Otokogoroshi]

Oh yeah I forgot about the whole 'if you're a tough woman clearly you're an ice queen, bitch or dyke'

Ugggg...







PS: I haven't shaved my legs in awhile >.> but well... I've no guy to impress at the moment

 

[Mazzerkhan]

Oh yeah I forgot about the whole 'if you're a tough woman clearly you're an ice queen, bitch or dyke'

Ugggg...







PS: I haven't shaved my legs in awhile >.> but well... I've no guy to impress at the moment

Me neither....but i'm married..and its in the rule book...as soon as he signes on the dotted line out come the comfortable shoes, the life time head ache begins and the razors are allowed to rust

 

[Otokogoroshi]

Me neither....but i'm married..and its in the rule book...as soon as he signes on the dotted line out come the comfortable shoes, the life time head ache begins and the razors are allowed to rust

I actually own one of those electric hair pluckers... it's not... painful but sure as shit isn't pleasant!

 

[lightbulbsun88]

Anybody who things the feminist fight is over is obviously male. I don't think most men grasp, even in the "liberated" west, how overtly sexual their perception of women is.

Have you even read any of the posts in this thread? Your hasty generalization of men says otherwise.


Here's a bullshit stereotype of men: Men are sex drones.

Fuck me! Do some women honestly think that if they start taking off their clothes I'll fuck them no matter what?

 

[Mazzerkhan]

Have you even read any of the posts in this thread? Your hasty generalization of men says otherwise.


Here's a bullshit stereotype of men: Men are sex drones.

Fuck me! Do some women honestly think that if they start taking off their clothes I'll fuck them no matter what?

My "hasty generalization" is 38 years in the making. And i do agree that it is a generalization however for most men (i would guess 70%+) the "any hole is a goal" manatra applies and that they would fuck anything if they though they could get away with it. I'm not trying to be deliberately confrontational its just alot of men are sex drones and treat women in that fashion. I'm not judging them either btw. Men are designed to spread their "seed". Thats why most men so easily distracted by a pair of mamillary glands.. and rememeber the 7 second stastistic?

 

[lightbulbsun88]

My "hasty generalization" is 38 years in the making. And i do agree that it is a generalization however for most men (i would guess 70%+) the "any hole is a goal" manatra applies and that they would fuck anything if they though they could get away with it. I'm not trying to be deliberately confrontational its just alot of men are sex drones and treat women in that fashion. I'm not judging them either btw. Men are designed to spread their "seed". Thats why most men so easily distracted by a pair of mamillary glands.. and rememeber the 7 second stastistic?

Wow...just wow. First of all, your experiences don't count as data. Even if they were, you are one person out of 6+ billion people on this planet, so your experiences are hardly representative. Don't treat them as such. Secondly, pulling figures out of your ass doesn't prove anything. 70%+ based on what methodology and what evidence? Thirdly, you contradict yourself in consecutive sentences by first saying "a lot of men are sex drones and treat women in that fashion," and then in the next breath state "I'm not judging them either by the way." Yes, you are being judgmental. The 7 second statistic? What are you talking about?

 

[Icefire9atla]

you are one person out of 6+ billion people on this planet, so your experiences are hardly representative

I agree, statistically, the experiences one person are not that accurate.

"sex drone" is a large exageration even if men are more sexual than women.

they would fuck anything if they though they could get away with it

Wow, you have a pretty shallow view of men, I really don't know what to say, except that most people actually have morals.

 

[WolfAU]

Mazzerkhan: "Anybody who things the feminist fight is over is obviously male."
Well I direct you to my first post where I said I think there were still some good fights left but your argument reeks of 'those who disagree with my stance don't know what they're talking about', as I'm sure a fair few women are content with the current set up, as we will never get the social balance of power perfectly equal, (ie who's balance of equal do we use) and frequently making minute adjustments to the system attempting may lead to greater problems emerging.

An example I raise; I am one of two sibs, a older sister. She frequently pushed for her to get certain things from our parents (ie certain freedoms ie an allowance), and I felt that I should get them too in the interests of fairness, but she often objected because I was younger, and thus getting them at an earlier age than she did. On one hand what I asked was fair enough, on the other I was considerably younger than her making her point also valid. So who's concept of fairness do we use? Its surprisingly subjective.

"in the west, how overtly sexual their perception of women is."
Well, for starters, drawing from your later comments you may be reading too much into what men say, ie if a man goes on about what a bitch woman X is, this often is just venting frustration. If you mean admiring the female form I think you're being both unreasonable and unrealistic.

"men and their failings are never described in sexual terms." By men, of course not, as women wouldn't do so with other women... women say things like that about guys quite often and I respect their right to do so (though I question how healthy it is).

"I have heard strong women described as either dykes or frigid I could retire. " Well plenty are... alot of generally happy guys can be emotionally resilient as it comes from growing up immersed in boy culture, but generally for a woman to be the same requires for her to have some serious emotional baggage.

re cosmetics, that is not really a gender issue, and more an issue of commercialism... watch (or even better, read) fight club if you haven't already, it addresses alot of the male side of commercialism.

Shit like 'any hole is a goal' is just how guys talk... its a mix of venting sexual frustration, and beating your chest (ie guys in highschool comparing conquests), its stupid, we know it and women do this as well.

"Men are designed to spread their "seed". " Is a gross generalisation, as I mentioned above, I prefer loving relationships and have decided against several chances for one night stands for this reason, with plenty of women around having one night stands on a weekly basis. A huge factor is men competing for status within male social structures (ie highschool) sexually, ie having the hotter girlfriend or a more impressive resume of conquests... its stupid and I don't condone it, but that is not the same as a man's true nature, its a distortion of it (and women are doing the same, particularly in highschool).

"Thats why most men so easily distracted by a pair of mamillary glands." Nice breasts are visually aesthetic, if you can't come to terms with that I could care less. Also there are women who stare at men (ie muscles, ass etc) and I've known a few bisexual women (dated one) who was more than happy to stare and admire the female form, its not a 'men are pigs' argument.

Also, considering how happy you are to make sweeping criticisms of men (the opposite sex), aka sexism, you are awfully critical of sexism by men... just something for you to think about. There will always be a rivalry between men and women (as comes from not really understanding the opposite gender), this is inevitable... but if the best thing you can muster is to cry how unfair it is then I'm afraid I have little sympathy for you or your arguments, theres a quote (i forget who) that's something like "when women are ready for equality, they won't be asking men for it".

 

[Otokogoroshi]

I do have to agree Mazz is a little too 'anti male' in her statements. The average person isn't trying to hold anyone back. In fact the people 'responsible' for causing hardship on just about anyone doesn't do it consciously. The media just does what they think its most profitable.


I really hate how women are so very ignored as a demographic in the media. We're 50% of the fucking populace! I also hate the stereotype that all we're interested in is the traditional 'girly stuff' IE chick flicks and makeup. I KNOW that I'm not your typical girl but it's really frustrating being completely ignored by the very things I enjoy the most. Action movies, horror movies, video games etc. I doubt I'm that much of a minority!!!


Women have money too!! And they watch the news too! Why don't we get some hot young studs giving the news right along with the hot young babes!?!??!!?!?!

 

[doloafing]

I find it interesting, and a bit sexist (tehe) to assume that my titling this SEX! was an attempt to catch men's attention and not both genders! See, to assume that you have to assume also that either I, or you, think that men are more likely to be drawn in by the title!

To me it seems perfectly equal opportunity!

It may be equal, but you do still make the assumption that guys (perhaps not exclusively) will go to any thread with sex in the title.

I think the more important point here is that it worked.

No one has anything to say about the trolls? T_T

As I said, feminism has achieved one goal: getting everyone to recognise the need for equality. It still has work to do. Women are, far too often, treated as sex objects, and all too often will not be taken seriously because of that. Can people not see that this needs to be fixed?

Oh and a guy who shaves more than his face? Rawr, sexy.

Ahh, if only you knew me. You'd know better.


I would totally support having underwear models of both sexes reading the news

 

[Otokogoroshi]

I would totally support having underwear models of both sexes reading the news

I think it would do well! Most news reporters are nothing more than overly glorified talking heads. Half the people reading the news on TV are half brainless...

And somehow all of the brainless ones are employed by fox... hummmmm....

 

[doloafing]

A word of advice to Fox:

Replace Bill O'Reilly with Zachary Quinto in boxer briefs. Profit.

 

[Otokogoroshi]

A word of advice to Fox:

Replace Bill O'Reilly with Zachary Quinto in boxer briefs. Profit.

Oh yeah... hell yeah... I support this 100%!

 

[WolfAU]

"Action movies, horror movies, video games etc. I doubt I'm that much of a minority!!!"
You're not, I play online quite a bit and play against quite a high proportion of girls (~10-15%, pretty high considering how 'elite' online gaming is), with about 10 that come to mind being comparable skill to me, about 2 being somewhat better than me, and one being HOLYSHITWTF?!?! amazing at it. Also I play regularly with a girl online, who is in an all girl clan, so there are plenty of gamers. Then there's WoW, with estimates as high as 12-15% of lvl 80's being women, not bad considering it takes about 100+ hours to hit the current level cap (my sis also plays).

"Why don't we get some hot young studs giving the news right along with the hot young babes!?!??!!?!?!" The usual marketers twisted logic... firstly using previous generations demographic data, they made the conclusion that women are less sexual, motivated less by sex (ie to buy a car because of a hot guy), and will be motivated by a desire to BE that woman, and men a desire to have them. There are reasons, just not good ones.

What would be interesting would be dynamic TV, so you can choose if you want your news read to you by a sexy woman or sexy man. And Zachary Quinto would do nicely.

 

[Otokogoroshi]

See the very fact that the media people think women are less sexual and less interested in seeing hot men is sexist!!!


Frustrating.

 

[Shapeshifter]

Haven't read the whole thread, just a few comments:

I think many people have a very misguided view of "equality" between men and women. Generally the whole problem was never solved but, as a necessity, much overcomplicated:

For example, a problem that doesn't exist in English, is the constant addition of female suffixes to all the words. E.g. the German word for "student" is "Student" if male, and "Studentin" if female. So in any sentence people now have to address the students with "Studenten und Studentinnen" or "Student/innen". Failing to do so already puts you in a political-incorrect position. Some people now actually put a disclaimer at the top of a writing saying "Only male versions of words are used in this text for simplicity, but they always include females".
Now there's two sides to the above story: On one hand, I don't see any point in this kind of formality. There never was a "neutral" form of words describing groups of people, everyone just used the male form. It's just stupid how people actually persist on these meaningless formalities. On the other hand, I can only say this because I already have the same respect for women I have for anyone. But in a society where women have less income and are still often treated as objects more than as people, you have to start somewhere! This was only one example but there are lots and lots of these, and most of the discussions these days are about formalities, and not about actual respect. Just now there's a discussion, that pedestrian traffic light pictograms should also depict female people. This is on one side totally insane, as the pictogram doesn't adress men but people even if it has a hat instead of a dress, but on the other hand, this clearly shows that women still have a great demand for more respect. The fact that these pointless debates even take place show that we do still not live in an equal society, even in central Europe.


Then, there's another thing that I find rather disturbing, and that doesn't help solving the problem at all: Because of this massive campaign of women rights, men have increasingly been conditioned to be nice to women in such a way that they don't honestly need to mean it. Bill Maher (who I admit isn't right on everything he says) once depicted this very nicely: "I know women don't have it easy in America, but it is sort of politically incorrect to just be male in this country now. I mean look at any sit com: the wife is always brilliant and right about everything, and the husband is just a dumb fuck lucky to have found her" and: "Any TV show in america, when a man goes up there and says 'you know women are smarted than men' - automatic round of applause, but if someone said 'men are smarted than women' you'd be boo'd of the stage. I mean what does this tell you about our culture that we have to pretend that one sex is smarted than the other?".
I find it a problem that in the rightful fight for equal rights, many women have started to go over their heads. claiming superiority , which - just as men degrading women - does nothing to solve the problem at all.


Then, regarding the sex object / sex machine concept: You all do realize that humans in nature - that is, humans as they are, but stripped of their intellect and morals - hav very good reasons for having these instincts. It's basic human behavior. If you ask me, would I sleep with a random women if she would undress, just for the heck of it, nothing more? Well, if I wasn't in a relationship (morals), and if she was pretty: Of course I would. I think it is hypocritical for men to pretend, not to be horny for a random women if there was the chance. Again, it would also be stupid to neglect morals or to break trust because of this. We are humans, which means we have both instincts and an intellect. They are not mutually exclusive!


And the last thing I would like to address: Equality cannot be applied as a general rule. Men and women are different. Of course women need to have the same access to education and they need to earn the same money for the same amount of work as a man does, and women have just as much right to take part in culture, politics, economics, science or any other area where they have expertise. But some people seem to forget, that the differences between women and men are good as they are. I know many women would disagree, but I know quite a few women who'd agree to this: Men are a bit filthy, they are physically stronger than women, they are loud and it's all good. And women are physically weaker, they're not supposed to grow muscles, they do know everything better (yes, they actually do), and it's good if they dress nicely. What is the problem with that? I wouldn't want to live in a world with muscular, dull women and men who spend one hour in the bathroom. Why is that so bad? Why can't men just be men and women be women?


I campaign for differences between men and women. We're not the same, we're not supposed to be the same. That said, I totally support equal working and payment conditions, I oppose sexist jokes or any sort of degrading habits. The differences between men and women are something to be treasured and celebrated. There's no better or worse, there's just differences.
Well, as said. The ways people are trying to solve the problem of inequality are lacking a point mostly, with all the meaningless formalities. On the other hand, it works, and it is necessary. In a world, where mutual respect would be established, such formalities would indeed not matter anymore.

Just be sane...

Hope I didn't step on anyones toes.

 

[Mazzerkhan]

lads you are totally misconstruing my posts. I have never stated that I was held back by men.
I am not anti man, I am just aware of their limitations in social limitations.

Fine, I am just 1 in 6 billion so my perception doesn't count. But I am 1 of 3 billion women on this planet a billion of whom can expect to be raped in their life time. Think about that one. There are 680,000 rapes in the US alone each year. Men do have a higher propensity to sexual violence and I think alot of it is cultural.

http://www2.gmu.edu/dpt/unilife/sexual//brochures/WorldStats2005.pdf

Do you need me to quote figures for pay disparity? absentee fathers? cheating husbands? general crime statistics?
Violent crime stastistics?

I also never said that men are pigs. You lot did.

On a lighter note..Yes I will happily look at well defined abs, however I would never look at a mans chest while talking to him. Nor would I whistle at him in the street, nor would I ever touch a man I didn't know..things that happen to most women on a regular basis.

A simple example is this..How many women take their cars to mechanics themselves? or do most women let their BFs/husbands?Dads etc do it because they know they'll get patronised/ripped off.

Why do men still joke about female drivers even though they are safer drivers and statistically less likely to have an accident (both our cars are insured as me as the primary driver because It saves us about ,£300 a year)?? In the EU/UK women pay much less car insurance than men (don't know about the US)..but they are still the butt of male drivers jokes..

And Zach Quinto reading the news would certainly get me going, although I would have to insist he wore the ears..