SEX!

[WolfAU]

ZPrime wrote:
I think the very idea of Feminism is sexist

I think he might mean feminism as opposed to humanism, like the example I raised about millions of dollars spent to end violence against women (a feminist agenda) rather than violence against both men and women (a humanist agenda).

I also doubt it would be as simple as one day saying to women 'ok you've achieved equality, so we're taking back all of these social crutches we gave you'...

 

[Aught3]

I also doubt it would be as simple as one day saying to women 'ok you've achieved equality, so we're taking back all of these social crutches we gave you'...

Obviously...

 

[ZPrime]

I don't think that this can really be true, at least in simple terms. It would be analogous to the march on Washington by Martin Luther King being racist - when it was actually for equal rights. Clearly, the people who get caught up in these movements can go to far and often want to 'over-correct' but it is natural for the pendulum to swing, as it were. Fighting for equal rights whether male or female is not sexist

I'm all for equal rights, and this has nothing to do with 'over-correcting'. This is about the fundamental principles that are 'feminism', that being women deserve equal rights to men. Which is wrong. It should be ALL HUMAN BEINGS DESERVER EQUAL RIGHTS. By saying women deserve equal rights your implying that men have more than women do (which might be true in some cases). This can be applied to any group of people minority or majorities.

why is this important? because if you get into the mindset that you have to fight for [insert group here]'s rights, than you will only be helping on side of the coin, one with no more entitlement for your help than the other, and this will just lead to one group being treated better than the other. But if you focus on standing up for all human rights, then you can help the oppressed without damaging everyone else's rights, and you don't run the risk of taking it to far (how can you when you're on everyone's side)

btw Martin Luther King's message SHOULD have been "all people deserve to have equal rights, black, white and everything in between, so let all stand together to make sure everyone gets what they deserve" and I can only say that now because of lessons that I've learn from the past rights and equality movements. If we try to keep fighting the fight they fought, with the same flaws in there positions, than we are just going to do more damage than anything. we need to learn from the past rights movements, see their flaws and improve them. that is why I say feminism is wrong, and sexist, it's time for everyone to move past it into a more humanist position just as WolfAU mentioned


i'm not sure if this post was clear enought, I hope your able to see my position, if not than i will try to clear it up later.

 

[Aught3]

That was very clear, and well argued

I'm not sure it would be ideal from a political standpoint but I like the idea you're expressing and that's more important to me.

 

[Grimlock]

Talking about equal rights for Women and men its funny how many of those who fight for it seem to forget the other side of the coin.
Because if truly equal rights is to be obtained it needs to the chase in EVERYTHING both negative and positive.

One could argue that one place where women often is "treated" better then men is when it comes to sexually orientated crimes.
Lets take pedophilia, i,´ve mentioned it before but womens seem to get of ALOT easier then men when it comes to sexually abusing children, funny how VERY few female activists is crying for that part to be changed.
Especially since it has been proved time and again that although boy,´s don,´t take as much psychical damaged when raped by a woman the psychological damaged can be just as severe if not severer (a lot of those boy who have been sexually abused by women are damaged for life).

Anyways to say that women,´s are the only ones subject to stereotyping in games isn,´t quite true as men in a way a most of the times victims to that too.

Now unless we are talking Santa Clause, side kick, comic relief or a villain how many times are there any choppy men out there who,´s taking the lead role and in the end scoring the hot chick.
I think such a thing can be counted on one hand maybe two but that,´s it in the end.

So what are the usual men who appear in the movies and games sure they might not all be Mr. Universe but most of them are thin and in relatively good condition psychically.
So seen in that perspective you could argue that a certain "type" of man is usually what is shown in modern day games and movies.

 

[ZPrime]

That was very clear, and well argued

Thank you

I'm not sure it would be ideal from a political standpoint but I like the idea you're expressing and that's more important to me.

I've never been very good at being politically correct, not that being politically correct ever mattered to me, but your positive attitude towards different opinions is quite encouraging. but what your stance on feminism?

Talking about equal rights for Women and men its funny how many of those who fight for it seem to forget the other side of the coin.
Because if truly equal rights is to be obtained it needs to the chase in EVERYTHING both negative and positive.

exactly what I'm talking about, all people should be held to the same standards, given the same opportunities, and punished equally for their mistakes and wrong doings.

Anyways to say that women,´s are the only ones subject to stereotyping in games isn,´t quite true as men in a way a most of the times victims to that too

Now unless we are talking Santa Clause, side kick, comic relief or a villain how many times are there any choppy men out there who,´s taking the lead role and in the end scoring the hot chick

of course, the media LOVES stereotypes! why? because that's what the masses WANT! why are there only attractive women in movies? because it would make sense not to! remember the media a out for one thing, and one thing only MONEY! that means big men with tight abs, big arms and big chested, skinny models hanging off his arms in a helpless manner. this won't change till the masses change what they want, and considering this has been going on for 30 years, well I wouldn't get my hopes up.

I'm not sure if any kind of activism will help change what the public wants see. after all movies, tv, internet media, video games, it's all just an entertaining escape from real life. who wants to spend time/money on things we see very day, all the time. that's boring! and is exactly why we like these stereotyped media.

 

[Aught3]

I've never been very good at being politically correct, not that being politically correct ever mattered to me, but your positive attitude towards different opinions is quite encouraging. but what your stance on feminism?

It's not so much about being politically correct, but in terms of strategy I think it is best for activist groups to focus on a subset of issues. They're trying to influence public perception and get policy changed; it seems it would be better to take small steps, correcting injustices one at a time, rather than a big push for everything all in one step.

Feminism I think was a necessary phase society had to go through to correct some of these injustices. Right to vote, to work, get an education, etc. In terms of my country, I think feminism has pretty much done all of the major necessary work - it will take a bit more time before things will be properly balanced so I don't think the need for feminism has gone completely. Plus, it is certainly needed in other countries like Iran. Overall, movements like these do want equal human rights not special rights for one group or another. They are just picking which battles they want to fight rather than trying to change the whole world at once. But still, thank-you for the change in perspective

 

[ZPrime]

It's not so much about being politically correct, but in terms of strategy I think it is best for activist groups to focus on a subset of issues. They're trying to influence public perception and get policy changed; it seems it would be better to take small steps, correcting injustices one at a time, rather than a big push for everything all in one step.

things do tend to work better in bite size chunks. But if you're just fights to make sure that women are treated equally to men in all cases, than your more likely to over look the times that men aren't being treated equal to women. mistreating one is just as unfair as mistreating the other, and no one should get special privileges. imo, things tend to be one sided when you don't try to work on the bigger picture, and just because its harder doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. (basically i think my method, although more difficult is fairer to everyone)

and for the most part everything else you said i agree with ... except that i don't think continued feminism the way it is won't help to balance things out any.

 

[WolfAU]

Well in some ways the question of; "if some great injustice was to fall apon all men, would feminists fight for it or would say say 'thats men's problem' and continue to focus on women's agenda?"

If they would, then they are essentially humanists and the label feminist simply labels their current priority, if not then they are true feminists, who do not feel the same pull in terms of bettering the lives of men (who many feminists see essentially as the enemy or hated oppressors) or possibly other groups, and don't feel particularly sympathetic to their plight.

Again, I state the reason I am for a great deal of women's rights is because these improvements would benefit all of society, it logically follows the inverse is true, that better condiitions for men indirectly improve the lives of women. Some women realise this and I can work with these people, some cannot, who see gender issues as some kind of contest.

To summarise (I'm not sure if what I'm saying is clear), humanism > feminism as it benefits everyone, its a value system so many people share, and it stops gender issues from becoming some kind of war or rivalry, and we can take our place as one people united, not two genders divided (imagine cliche TV spot playing in the background)... yeah, sorry if that sounds a bit cliche. :?

 

[ZPrime]

To summarise ... humanism > feminism as it benefits everyone, its a value system so many people share, and it stops gender issues from becoming some kind of war or rivalry, and we can take our place as one people united, not two genders divided

exactly

 

[Abi]

One could argue that one place where women often is "treated" better then men is when it comes to sexually orientated crimes.
Lets take pedophilia, i,´ve mentioned it before but womens seem to get of ALOT easier then men when it comes to sexually abusing children, funny how VERY few female activists is crying for that part to be changed.
/quote]


One thing I've always been suspicious about feminists of is that they never mention the [U.S] Military Draft. 18 year old men are required to sign up for it, but yet women aren't...Where's your picket signs and "equal rights" slogans now?

 

[Otokogoroshi]

One thing I've always been suspicious about feminists of is that they never mention the [U.S] Military Draft. 18 year old men are required to sign up for it, but yet women aren't...Where's your picket signs and "equal rights" slogans now?

I find that to be BS too. Every American should have to sign up for it.

 

[Moky]

One thing I've always been suspicious about feminists of is that they never mention the [U.S] Military Draft. 18 year old men are required to sign up for it, but yet women aren't...Where's your picket signs and "equal rights" slogans now?

Oh jeez, my US History teach brought this one up once. He asked only the girls, "Would you be willing to sign up for a draft if this was extended to you?" I was the ONLY girl to raise my hand. In the begining of the year, he gave us a list of things that matter the most to us in politics and some girls put women's rights. Not even they rose their hands. And all I could think is, "Are you ladies fucking kidding me? I'm the only one willing to do this?" My teacher asked me why and I said, "If the guys have this burden, then for the sake of equality, I'll share it with them." and I saw them sort of hang their heads. That one gesture brought me satisfaction.

 

[Icefire9atla]

One thing I've always been suspicious about feminists of is that they never mention the [U.S] Military Draft. 18 year old men are required to sign up for it, but yet women aren't...Where's your picket signs and "equal rights" slogans now?

I think that this goes back to what someone was saying earlier. The femenist movement has been very succeseful in spreading knowlege about unfairness toward women. Yet there is no orginization informing anybody about inequalities toward men.

I think it's not that they don't care, it's just that there is less awareness in society about these things.

 

[ZPrime]

I think that this goes back to what someone was saying earlier. The femenist movement has been very succeseful in spreading knowlege about unfairness toward women. Yet there is no orginization informing anybody about inequalities toward men.

I think it's not that they don't care, it's just that there is less awareness in society about these things.

the problem is the media, they wouldn't allow an orginization promoting the inequalities towards men to exist, or at least exist in a possitive sense. To this date i've seen one person try inform the public, and he was called a sexist ass hole by the news reporting on the topic, the story was followed up with a report on volince agienst women by white supremist ... maybe this isn't typical for news corperations, maybe there isn't many orginizations out there promoting inequalities agianst men, but have anyone else seen the media (mainly the news) report on them in a possitive light before?

not that i think a campain to inform the world about inequalities agianst men is they way to go, we need to take a new prospective on things to fix the current issues.

 

[WolfAU]

The news are part trend setters and part 'go with the flow'... maybe they're trying to set some new agenda, but in the case you listed its much more likely they're just 'saying whats popular', as both men and women tend to love to demonize those they see as 'beating up the weak'... its interesting double think going on that women can be both weak and needing protection, and equals simultaneously.

 

[Daemon6]

I have always prescribed to the philosophy that a person should be judged on their character. That being said, I definitely have to agree that the media portrays (many) stereotypes far too excessively. Have you ever seen a slight, non-athletic, long-haired man portrayed as anything but weak, nerdy, and/or spastic/furtive? I do, however, believe that it is not likely that the representation is intended to promote a paradigm, but rather a result of underlying preconceptions. It's doubtful that the media, relying as it does on popular opinion, will alter its methods. Not saying that it's fair or right by any means, but to be honest how much in life is?

So it really comes down to how you react to the situation. Most of the women in my family are strong, intelligent, independent people who do not let the media's gender portrayal affect their confidence. I've never even heard them comment about it. In my opinion the best weapon against such stereotypes is to stop caring what other people think about you. Confidence is charismatic! (added) If you find yourself in a situation where you're at a disadvantage look for a solution instead of trying to catalog injustices.

 

[Daemon6]

To summarise ... humanism > feminism as it benefits everyone, its a value system so many people share, and it stops gender issues from becoming some kind of war or rivalry, and we can take our place as one people united, not two genders divided

This is going to sound sad, but until now I've never read the actual definition of humanism. Having read it I have to say that I agree 110%.

 

[WolfAU]

Have you ever seen a slight, non-athletic, long-haired man portrayed as anything but weak, nerdy, and/or spastic/furtive?

In their defense, the idea is to try to get us to characterise, understand and indentify the individual as quickly as possible... so if they're meant to be a geek they're not likely to have an athletic build because that may confuse individuals as to what type of person they're meant to play in the story or ad (ie in terms of trying to identify their interests, characterisation etc). I also do see a trend of making attractive men and women intelligent in stories, either as a curve ball of 'whoa' when you realise they are smart (in conflict with the attractive = dumb stereotype), or as an attempt to break the stereotype (or trying to create a paragon or 'super character', ie one without the usual flaws, eccentricities, mannerisms, emotional baggage etc that characters are usually given).

In general, people love to demonize the media (as they seemingly have so much influence), but usually the media is simply doing what is popular (ie in terms of interesting stories, dramatic news etc). News shows have developed a sense for the theatrical that does concern me a bit, and there is a kind of 'homogenising' effect that mass media has on society, but for the most part the media is a mixture of paid corporate greed, and just doing whatever the hell they think people want, with new trends like 'realistic' models being done largely to get public cred.

I mean ask yourself, if a TV station tomorrow was to start toting a very unpopular view, ie Holocaust denial, how many people would they win over, and how many people would simply switch stations? If lots would buy it I think that speaks worse for the masses than anything else. The same thing with a currently loved celebrity (ie if they became a Neo Nazi and encouraged their fans to as well).

 

[Daemon6]

In their defense, the idea is to try to get us to characterise, understand and indentify the individual as quickly as possible...

This is definitely true. However, the intent of my post was not to harp the flaws of media but rather to denounce its relevance to personal opinion.