SEX!

[Sando]

I honestly believe that men have a better understanding of the female situation than vice versa, much as a result of the feminist movement. Most girls I've talked to about this have very much had a "the grass is always greener on the other side" kind of view on it.

As many of you have said, I've also noticed the way women just ignore men in clubs and bars... but that's not all there's to it. Women don't just blow men off, they can also act just like men when they're hitting on someone. I've several times gotten suggestions that would get me a slap in the face if I'd talk like that to a woman! I've even had women shove their hand down my pants without any sort of warning - something that a man would probably get arrested for sexual assault for! I find it offensive that someone would think I'd somehow enjoy that while they would be horrified by the very same action.

When it comes to such grose behaviour among men that has been discussed I'd like to point out that there's a strong pressure among men to act this way. Friends simply expect you to behave this way. For example, I'm not very keen on the idea of picking up some unknown girl at a bar/club and have sex with her for the sake of it. I just don't find it appealing, as I'm the sort of person that finds personality, character and intelligence very important for getting that feeling of attraction. But still, my friends keep trying to push me into it (especially when I'm drunk, hehe). I've several times sat there, talking to some girl, when a friends has come along and whispered something like "Go ahead! Take her home and fuck her!" and even though I've explained that it's someone's sister (or an ex's friend or that she has a boyfriend etc) and they would just call me gay for it. It's somehow considered filthy to not want to have sex with pretty much any girl.

This can't, according to my experience, be blamed entirely upon a lack of education or intelligence. I have quite a few friends that do this and think this way while studying quite difficult subjects such as law, medicine or some sort of engineering.

Actually, I've got an ironic story from last weekend. I was out clubbing with some friends when I notice this girl staring at me from the dancefloor. She comes up to me (at least I think so, can't really remember) and starts dancing. I figure - sure, why not - and dance with her for a while. Suddenly she just says "You're probably a chauvinist pig that just wants to have sex with me". At first I'm stunned by her comment, but then I just reply "No, I'm not. I actually have a great deal of respect for women". She seems happy and says nothing more. After half an hour or so we go out to get some fresh air and she starts going on and on about women's rights and equal pay for equal work (which I consider non-issues today, but I still agreed). She seemed quite happy about my opinions on the matter, especially since I agreed with her that people should be considered individuals and not as part of a group and stuff like that. The night goes on, we keep dancing and talking and just spending the time... Later on she suggests that the two of us go have ourselves an after party at her place. I really didn't feel comfortable with that, and I told her so. Then she suddenly got real angry and told me that I was a shallow pig for not wanting to have sex with her... I was just amazed by this, but didn't have a good answer for her and so she just ran off. Strange...

Sorry for my at times bad English. It's my third language...

 

[Otokogoroshi]

Hey Sando! Thanks for joining the debate


Your English is fine, I'm pretty picky and I didn't see anything wrong it it.

I do hate the standards that its ok for a girl to do something (Feel a guy up) but NOT ok for a guy to do the same. Its stupid. Not only that but in my opinion it actually holds us back. Interpersonal space is important for everyone and until you know someone well enough you should avoid no-no zones. It varies depending on cultures, here in America we have a bigger personal bubble than in say most European countries and I've noticed people react shocked when I do something as simple as touch the back of their hand. I'm just trying to make a connection while talking not molest them! It's just the back of your hand for the love of god. Sheesh.

Still I hold firm that while guys keep saying that girls act x and that's a little sexist I think its less about sexism and more about some people are jerks. However having said that some of the behavior is reinforced by sexist notions, such as its ok for a girl to do something but not a guy. If someone blows you off it seems silly to suggest its purely for sexist reasons. Though if a girl does it on the notion that "I'm a woman so I have the power" its both arrogant and sexist.

 

[WolfAU]

"I honestly believe that men have a better understanding of the female situation than vice versa"
I question that, I do find plenty of women have a chip on their shoulder, preferring to maintain this rediculous idea that men have it so much easier compared to women and I think few men make the opposite assertion, but I do find that alot of things about womens lives alot of men are ignorant of (subtle social politics etc). Though I am fortunate that I've had quite a few close female friends who would talk candidly and honestly to me about them.

I agree about the double standard about women being incredibly assertive sexually, and it is definately a double standard, but on a show (I think Ally McBeal) they addressed this issue in a way I have to agree with... if a woman, especially an attractive one sexually harasses a man... would you honestly feel sorry for him? Though I do object as for alot of women its a game to test their skills of seduction and to compete with each other.

An example I mentioned briefly before, a friend of mine passed out at a party, and woke up to two women feeling him up... he just shoo'd them away and didn't make an issue of it, if that had been a woman I have little doubt serious action would've been taken (ie the police getting involved). The main issue that pisses me off is that women condemn men behaving in this way, yet justify women doing it by saying that men do it.

Yeah if a woman asks me back to her place I usually feel a bit bad if I turn her down as they tend to take it very personally, I don't tend to go for one night stands or casual sex either.

re your English, its better than alot of people I know for whom its their first language.

Otokogoroshi : "Interpersonal space is important for everyone and until you know someone well enough you should avoid no-no zones."
I agree with you in principle, but the issue is that I find society becoming more and more difficult for us to know where we stand in terms of that. If we lay our souls to bare we usually get shot down more often than not so we tend to 'play it cool'. We could play the Simpson-esque approach of everytime we do something we ask for permission ('That 90's show' "Do I have permission to kiss you on the lips?" etc) which is kind of suffocating. My feeling is society really needs to come up with some nice social customs to help gauge this (ie I find myself loving the idea of some kind of modern day pagan fertility festivals.. ie single people getting a party just for singles for the sole purpose of finding partners), I also like the idea of indicators of committment (ie clothing or accessories you ware to indicate your essentially off the market, which was kinda the point of wedding rings).

 

[Sando]

I agree about the double standard about women being incredibly assertive sexually, and it is definately a double standard, but on a show (I think Ally McBeal) they addressed this issue in a way I have to agree with... if a woman, especially an attractive one sexually harasses a man... would you honestly feel sorry for him? Though I do object as for alot of women its a game to test their skills of seduction and to compete with each other.

Well, sorry might not be the right word. It's more the hypocrisy and the lack of common sense that disturbs me... And besides, I don't really think it matters whether or not the guy likes it (which is pretty much what the feeling sorry or not is about), as 1) the girl cannot possibly know it before, and if she does it's more like roleplaying really 2) if she knows that she would feel offended herself or that really anyone else could feel that way there's really no excuse. The golden rule, y'know.

About the internal competition: I really don't think that's the issue with most women. I've talked about this with some girls, and they haven't at least admitted that it's common. Although I'm sure it occurs and that even if it was common, they probably wouldn't admit it. The real problem is in my opinion having watched too many chick flicks, which have given them a view on men and romance that is just not realistic. I've noticed that women often have real high expectations on men (or pretty much none at all, but who wants those?). They expect perfectly maintained looks, sense of fashion, chivalry as well as both class and a wilder side. Men don't have those expectations, as well... most don't have much choice. It's not very far away from the impact women claim watching too much porn has on men.

Otokogoroshi: Thank you! You know, I don't really have any experience of American views on personal space but it changes a whole lot in different parts of Europe. Some cultures seem to not have any boundaries at all P), while some nationalities seem to be way too shy. Unfortunately Finns belong to the second category... Generally we don't even hug when men and women meet, like they most often do in large parts of Europe. It's really quite boring and one of the big downsides of my culture.

 

[lightbulbsun88]

When it comes to such grose behaviour among men that has been discussed I'd like to point out that there's a strong pressure among men to act this way. Friends simply expect you to behave this way. For example, I'm not very keen on the idea of picking up some unknown girl at a bar/club and have sex with her for the sake of it. I just don't find it appealing, as I'm the sort of person that finds personality, character and intelligence very important for getting that feeling of attraction. But still, my friends keep trying to push me into it (especially when I'm drunk, hehe). I've several times sat there, talking to some girl, when a friends has come along and whispered something like "Go ahead! Take her home and fuck her!" and even though I've explained that it's someone's sister (or an ex's friend or that she has a boyfriend etc) and they would just call me gay for it. It's somehow considered filthy to not want to have sex with pretty much any girl.

Yeah, I really don't understand that expectation. I have a friend that's always telling me she knows how a guys brain works and all she has to do is pull off a few tricks. How much more degrading can you get? Men are not mindless, sex drones.

Actually, I've got an ironic story from last weekend. I was out clubbing with some friends when I notice this girl staring at me from the dancefloor. She comes up to me (at least I think so, can't really remember) and starts dancing. I figure - sure, why not - and dance with her for a while. Suddenly she just says "You're probably a chauvinist pig that just wants to have sex with me". At first I'm stunned by her comment, but then I just reply "No, I'm not. I actually have a great deal of respect for women". She seems happy and says nothing more. After half an hour or so we go out to get some fresh air and she starts going on and on about women's rights and equal pay for equal work (which I consider non-issues today, but I still agreed). She seemed quite happy about my opinions on the matter, especially since I agreed with her that people should be considered individuals and not as part of a group and stuff like that. The night goes on, we keep dancing and talking and just spending the time... Later on she suggests that the two of us go have ourselves an after party at her place. I really didn't feel comfortable with that, and I told her so. Then she suddenly got real angry and told me that I was a shallow pig for not wanting to have sex with her... I was just amazed by this, but didn't have a good answer for her and so she just ran off. Strange...

Wow... :shock: ...Shallow for not wanting sex? That's an interesting insight.

 

[Sando]

Wow... :shock: ...Shallow for not wanting sex? That's an interesting insight.

Yeah, well... I guess it was a combination of alcohol and bad self-esteem. I might also have pondered my options for a bit too long in my drunkenness, which might have given her the impression that I didn't find her attractive. That would have been kind of strange though, as I kissed her before. But who knows.

 

[Icefire9atla]

I honestly believe that men have a better understanding of the female situation than vice versa

I beleive that men and women have an equally terrible understanding of each other's situations.
Interestingly, when I was having a similiar conversation on another site and said this, a girl got really offended at me.
It was weird, she was convinced that women understood men but not vice versa.

I have a friend that's always telling me she knows how a guys brain works and all she has to do is pull off a few tricks. How much more degrading can you get?

I hate it when people say this. Although I beleive that some guys are guilty of doing this as well.

 

[Sando]

I beleive that men and women have an equally terrible understanding of each other's situations.
Interestingly, when I was having a similiar conversation on another site and said this, a girl got really offended at me.
It was weird, she was convinced that women understood men but not vice versa.

Well, I can only judge the question from my own experiences. I have at least had some feminist teachers all the way through the educational system. In high school we read both poetry, drama and novels written by and about feminists... some teachers surely used up too much time on it that could have been spent elsewhere. On the other hand, the only time I've heard (as far as I can remember at least) about sexism towards men was the other day in an article about how men feel about their bodies (over a third are worried about a lack of muscles). Sure, this could very well be different in some other place... but still, it feels like feminism has gotten more time (well deserved though) in the spotlight than... whatever the male version of it is called... Masculism, I believe.

 

[Icefire9atla]

Well, I can only judge the question from my own experiences. I have at least had some feminist teachers all the way through the educational system. In high school we read both poetry, drama and novels written by and about feminists... some teachers surely used up too much time on it that could have been spent elsewhere. On the other hand, the only time I've heard (as far as I can remember at least) about sexism towards men was the other day in an article about how men feel about their bodies (over a third are worried about a lack of muscles). Sure, this could very well be different in some other place... but still, it feels like feminism has gotten more time (well deserved though) in the spotlight than... whatever the male version of it is called... Masculism, I believe.

Technically, the goal of feminism is to make women equal to men in society.

So it follows that if it makes women equal to men, then men are also equal to women. However, it doesn't seem like there is much focus on men.

 

[Sando]

Technically, the goal of feminism is to make women equal to men in society.

So it follows that if it makes women equal to men, then men are also equal to women. However, it doesn't seem like there is much focus on men.

I might have made this a bit unclear by faulty terminology, but oh well... What I meant was not that people are trying to impose on men's rights for the gain of women. Obviously they aren't. What I meant was that men/boys often hear about how hard it is to be a woman in "a man's world" but women/girls rarely hear about how tough it is to be a man.

 

[Icefire9atla]

I might have made this a bit unclear by faulty terminology, but oh well... What I meant was not that people are trying to impose on men's rights for the gain of women. Obviously they aren't. What I meant was that men/boys often hear about how hard it is to be a woman in "a man's world" but women/girls rarely hear about how tough it is to be a man.

OK, I see now what you mean.

I agree.

 

[Mapp]

One of the interesting things I find is how the word feminism has become a perjorative term to so many people. Every year, when I teach first and second wave feminism I explain the basic concepts of it, the notion of legal equality for women, and they always get it. Then I ask, "based on that, how many of you would call yourself feminists?" Maybe 30% of the class will raise their hands. Feminism has become inextricably linked to bra-burning, lesbianism and man-hating in the United States.

At the same time, I have seen feminism, when taken as an ideology do damage. A few friends of mine, after marrying and having kids, were never able to square their desire for domesticity, i.e. having a family and a husband, with their ideology. One of them once told me, "Taking my husband's name was the biggest mistake of my life." She has since divorced him, and the kids are in the middle of a mess.

It seems strange that neither side of the debate seems to remember what the feminist movement began as, and what it's really about, and that this conflict is keeping a new generation from embracing what actually is a noble goal.

 

[Otokogoroshi]

One of the interesting things I find is how the word feminism has become a perjorative term to so many people. Every year, when I teach first and second wave feminism I explain the basic concepts of it, the notion of legal equality for women, and they always get it. Then I ask, "based on that, how many of you would call yourself feminists?" Maybe 30% of the class will raise their hands. Feminism has become inextricably linked to bra-burning, lesbianism and man-hating in the United States.

At the same time, I have seen feminism, when taken as an ideology do damage. A few friends of mine, after marrying and having kids, were never able to square their desire for domesticity, i.e. having a family and a husband, with their ideology. One of them once told me, "Taking my husband's name was the biggest mistake of my life." She has since divorced him, and the kids are in the middle of a mess.

It seems strange that neither side of the debate seems to remember what the feminist movement began as, and what it's really about, and that this conflict is keeping a new generation from embracing what actually is a noble goal.

Some very good points!

My brother is actually the one who inspired me to become a feminist.

I suppose any idea, ideal or notion gets tainted the moment it forms in someones head and its only downhill from their! haha



Sorry I just saw a really dumb movie so I'm feeling pessimistic.

 

[JacobEvans]

My opinions on sexism towards men is rather conflicted.

And I'm very much generalizing, I know that everyone is different (I don't fit my own view on how men treat women) but I'm (for lack of a better phrase) discussing the rule not the exception ( not to say that the rule is any better than the exception, but you know what I mean )


On one hand, as a male I find it frustrating that there remains this pervasive idea that men are really just moronic buffoons, and that women are much smarter than men. In my experience, girls my age have this tendency to think that guys their age are immature, yet these are often the same girls who are extremely materialistic and oblivious to the world around them. I think that men and women aren't much different than one another when it comes to intelligence, but I think the consumer society tells girls (through toys and media) that women are supposed to only care about shopping and boys, but then they learn that girls develop faster than boys, so they get the idea that they must be more mature than guys their age, yet they all to often continue to hold their idiotic idea of how a woman is "supposed to be".

Yet, just as girls are given a narrow idea of what a woman should be like, boys get the idea that they are supposed to be tough and macho by the older men in their life, and they learn from their society that men should only care about sports and sex and that those who aren't big and strong are "geeks". And men also retain their idea of how men should be when they grow up.


But I must add that I think that considering the situation of both genders, men have by far been given the upper hand when it comes to having control over their lives, yet in my experience, men are also expected to 'protect' women, and we seem to be the ones expected to place ourselves in harms way because 'it's a man's job to help the helpless women of the world' which is extremely frustrating to me.


To give you an example, on 9/11, every time an updated death toll was said on the news, it was immediately followed with "many of whom were women and children". It's as if the innocent men that were killed weren't just as helpless as the women and the children.

If women really were as helpless as they are perceived, then I would be damn fine with getting higher pay than a woman and keeping them at home so they don't get hurt in the big scary world. But I don't think women are these helpless damsels that always need rescuing, which is why I am glad women are starting to be treated with as much respect in society as men are, and I think that the 'men as protectors' idea is a ridiculous notion considering how women are increasingly joining the militaries of many nations and are proving themselves to be very capable.

 

[Grimlock]

If you want more "realistic" approach may i recomend the Persona series, just played through the Persona 4 and going through the third one in the series.
Now all i need is to find somewhere to get a hold of the two first ones, not easy since i need them to send the games to Denmark and apparently only few American companies does that (and since i can only find them on amazon.com well lets just say it isn,´t easy)

The so-called Peach syndrome isn,´t there as much at least not in the fourth one.

As for Lori yes she could have been better made, but to her defense it should be said, that the American version of the show basically ass raped it and molested it in a way, that had it been a real child they would have been sent away for life.
I would say that a lot of the Sexism is absent from a lot of the Japanese animes, and some of the girls in those are anything but defenseless love interests.

I,´ll give more of an opinion when i read the rest of the threat.

But i just thought i,´ed mention it.

 

[ZPrime]

wow, there is soooooo much I want to say on this topic, I'll try to choose my words, as to not offend anyone....if that's even possible.

but first a story.

when I was still in high school, 2 years ago. My best-friend, a white man who was also elected to me valid Victorian, was asked to write an article for the school news paper. he choose his topic, found his sources, cited them, and handed in his article. it was called "equality but not equal" he talked about the physical requirements for males vs. females for jobs, i.e. firefight, military, polices. he talked about Grants, Bursaries and Scholarships, that are available for both sexes, that are dependent on their sex. he talked about thinks like sports, children clubs, like scouts and "girl" scouts. etc. pointing out the difference between the two, and then he ended it off with some information about sexual assaults charges, convictions, and legal aid made available for people based on their sex, and the outcomes of custody cases.

when he went to have this paper published the teacher that ran the paper, didn't put in this article, even though the teacher asked my friend to write and article of his choosing. The teacher didn't even tell my friend that he wasn't going to put in this week's paper. It wasn't till the paper came out did my friend find out that it was put in. When he asked the teacher about it, the teacher told him that his information was incorrect, and that his article was too opinion orientated. I read his article the only thing in the whole article that was opinion orientated was the title.

and that kind of bullshit pisses me off. even if his article was bias as all hell, the teacher asked him to write it and should have printed it anyways. High school students are intelligent enough (well most of them) to be able to take a position on such topics.

that aside, I think the very idea of Feminism is sexist, so is Masculinist (is that word right?). The rights and freedoms of a human being shouldn't have any ties to that human beings sex in any way, just as it shouldn't have any ties to their race (which is a different rant in its self). The long we keep tying that freedoms and rights of human to their sex, we are going to keep running into the concept of inequality, on either side.

such inequalities are the very basis for sexual tensions, for example, the idea that a women touch a man inappropriately without any penalty will only help provoke acts of extreme violence.

also such idea like women are smarter than men, are really just as bad as back in the 20s when male doctors told women that if they played sports that they wouldn't be able to have children, (I would mention that they also said that women weren't as smart as men, but i can't remember the time frame that they said that.)

the idea that men are easy to manipulate is also very similar to this as well. (I've always wondered if women thought men where easy to manipulate via sex, and so they try to get what they want from the man via sex and that really what they guy wanted all along ... who was being manipulated? if anyone at all, cause that sounds like a trade off to me.

when I was looking at Grants, Bursaries and Scholarships for university, I realized that there where an extremely large about of them that where women only, but not a single one said men only on it. not a single one in about 1200 of them. now I'd say that's sexist. In no way does being a girl make them need the money for education any more than I did, and in no way did being a girl make the financially less capable to go to university / post secondary. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I see this as being just like when black children weren't allowed to go to the same schools as white children. does some ones sex, or race determine someone's need? or there entitlement?

Sorry for the spelling and grammar, English is my first language, and I really suck at it.

"¦. Now look at me I've gone and made a wall of text "¦..

but thats just my take on it...

 

[WolfAU]

Re the article I'm familiar with some similar examples. I also like that my sister when to University and was checking out various clubs there, including clubs for ethnic groups, gay pride, religion etc, she asked the person in charge if there was a club for 'Straight White Man pride', the director laughed and said that he doubted such a club would be allowed as it would be seen as very offensive.

In general my experience is people in charge do their best to avoid things that rock the boat, most political actions reflect that nicely (their goal is to maintain order and will happily commit injustices to maintain that). Also I agree that feminism by its nature is somewhat offensive to the goal of equality, as if they wanted that they would try to improve both male and female rights, as such I think feminists tend to focus on the glass half empty. I also agree with Jacob Evans about the whole 'women and children' being more horrific casualties, its cultural and completely outdated.

I don't believe any society has said women could not be smart, but many societies felt women for various reasons lacked alot of virtues that men had (stoicism, determination, honour etc), while they may not be inherantly absent in the sex they may have been in the cultures history (possibly circular if fathers didn't bother trying to teach them), who knows. Also with education early on being an expensive commodity (and with manual labour being the main issue in most of human history), of some questionable importance) and as such women generally couldn't recieve eduation, though I doubt a secondary motive was education = power and many would prefer women to simply obey.

All in all I think societies back then made some bad calls, but if I was in their place (ie with population being of such great importance), maybe I'd have made the same calls. Either way I'm glad things have changed but hate that feminists keep using the past as some kind of proof that men are evil. Also I have to say that in my mind alot of pro-women's rights laws have turned alot of women into entitled assholes.

I don't particularly care if women make jokes about men, in fact I think its very healthy, but I feel it is a hypocrisy that if I was to make similar jokes (ie men smarter than women) I would get such hell for it.

re scholarships I find a similar thing in terms of minorities (ie around 30-40% of scholarships that I know of require the individual to be Native Australian or Torre's Strait Island heritage. The argument is its about redestributing power (ie get more educated minorities to break white males hold on it, its highly immoral, but the argument for it has some validity, though extending that to women is quite questionable imo).

I consider myself a humanist and I think the benefits to men by giving women more social power are more than sufficient reason to do so (example most of my lecturers are women and most are very capable, alot of the most impressive students in my class are women, without these social changes I suspect many would be discouraged from persuing academic interests). However I do object to alot of feminists arguing for such changes because of subjective notions of equality and fairness (I gave an example in a previous post about my sister and myself as kids), and also the problem with that logic is we're never going to achieve perfect equality, either legal or social, again largely because of how subjective such a thing is.

 

[ZPrime]

Re the article I'm familiar with some similar examples. I also like that my sister when to University and was checking out various clubs there, including clubs for ethnic groups, gay pride, religion etc, she asked the person in charge if there was a club for 'Straight White Man pride', the director laughed and said that he doubted such a club would be allowed as it would be seen as very offensive.

this reminds me, universities have female only residence floors, but I've never seen or hear of a males only residence floor...

re scholarships I find a similar thing in terms of minorities (ie around 30-40% of scholarships that I know of require the individual to be Native Australian or Torre's Strait Island heritage. The argument is its about redestributing power (ie get more educated minorities to break white males hold on it, its highly immoral, but the argument for it has some validity, though extending that to women is quite questionable imo).

indeed they are largely bias towards minorities, but problem is most people see women as a minority. But the very idea that giving money to someone for educational purposes based on there race/sex is racist and sexist. I'm currently studying engineering (which is extremely male dominated there are less than 10% women in my program, and that's considered to be a lot compared to some universities) and because of this, I know women who don't need the money from scholarships, getting an almost free education. This money should be given to those who need it, not to those who meet the sex/racial requirements.

However I do object to alot of feminists arguing for such changes because of subjective notions of equality and fairness (I gave an example in a previous post about my sister and myself as kids), and also the problem with that logic is we're never going to achieve perfect equality, either legal or social, again largely because of how subjective such a thing is.

when I get some time I'll type up another post, this it will be about the one women's studies class my friend invited me to sit in on...

side note any else think that having a women's studies and not a men's studies is sexist?

 

[WolfAU]

"this reminds me, universities have female only residence floors, but I've never seen or hear of a males only residence floor." As there is in mine, and its not unheard of for men to be harassed if they loiter in the area. Though again, I can see their side as most girls in those blocks are there because of overly protective parents.

"but problem is most people see women as a minority..." I've noticed that sentiment too and I find it laughable on so many levels... firstlymw omen are not a MINORITY in the most literal sense of the word, being ~50% of the population. Secon, women can be born to wealthy parents, as such the socio-economic factors really are not an issue.

"[Giving things]...based on there race/sex is racist and sexist."
Agreed, I think alot of people don't tend to think about what these words really mean, instead they choose to look at non-white races and women as oppressed and thus pity them, giving them spare change like you would throw to a beggar on the street for similar reasons. Many whites resent it because its a double standard, and many 'minorities' resent it because of how patronising it is, it devalues the accomplishments of alot of them. It also reminds me of a running joke in a movie, I believe it was 'The Animal', of a black guy pissed that he was always getting preferential treatment because of his race, using the term 'reverse racism', though obviously this is a form of racism (differential treatment based on race), though the term usually implies favouring your own race.

A more appropriate word to describe it is 'second class citizens', as this implies the main issue is that they're looked down apon. However, while I am all in favour of women pushing for many forms of 'equality' under the law, pushing for social equality (ie social belief's and oppinions are one of those things which is difficult to force changes apon (being expensive and generally ineffective) and can backfire (ie often advocates against the changes will become more vocal). As such I find it harder and harder to support feminism as its current focus seems less on practical changes to the law, and more about either spreading 'propaganda'.

In Australia there was a massive campaign, costing millions called 'To crimes against women - Australia says no', regular TV ads, posters everywhere and alot of it was appeal to emotion and deception rather than 'awareness' (an example is a woman saying 'then he said it was my fault' the screen flashes up 'It's never your fault'... while I have little patience for victim blaming, that is utter crap!). As a Humanist I asked the obvious question... "why not have a campaign to end forms of violence against EVERYONE?" Was this just trying to buy the feminist vote?

"side note any else think that having a women's studies and not a men's studies is sexist? "
In principle, though I am not clear what exactly women's studies invovles, though I know there is 'gender studies' which I assume includes both. Also a key topic in women's studies seems to be things like the suffragette's movement and other periods of historical importance (ie the evolution of women's rights and marriage laws), which there is no comparison for men.

A bit off topic, but while mentioning marriage above I got to thinking about the topic of marriage itself. Some would argue it is (or was) designed to benefit women at the expense of men, historically it meant that women were secure (ie couldn't be dumped once the woman's beauty had faded and the man was bored of her), financially provided for, and modern times courts mostly rule in favour of women in custody and alimony. Many women argue it is designed to favour men, giving men the 'alpha male' role as head of the household, giving him authority and important roles like working. I tend to see it as favouring neither partner, its initial role in history (I don't know if anyone really knows its current purpose, it seems largely archaic and cultural more than anything else) seems to be about benefits to society and government at the expense of the couple, things like arranged marriages and issues basically mean that marriage as it was designed is about creating the most effective system for breeding, thus increasing a Nations population, making it more powerful etc. I think its quite an important issue in terms of women's rights ('what is the value of marriage?') when alot of abuses of women's rights seem to be focused around it, and what changes can we make to it so that it better serves the couple's needs rather than simply dogmatically clinging to tradition.

 

[Aught3]

I liked your post ZPrime and an interesting story, it sounded like that teacher had their own bias. I did want to disagree with one point

I think the very idea of Feminism is sexist

I don't think that this can really be true, at least in simple terms. It would be analogous to the march on Washington by Martin Luther King being racist - when it was actually for equal rights. Clearly, the people who get caught up in these movements can go to far and often want to 'over-correct' but it is natural for the pendulum to swing, as it were. Fighting for equal rights whether male or female is not sexist.

I certainly don't want to live in a sexless* society some differences are bound to occur as long as they are minor I'm quite content to live with it.

On the university question, I think we are getting closer to the time were young women are no longer at a disadvantage simply because of their sex. Once that stage is reached there should be no need for these scholarships. I don't particularly mind them at the moment but I do think it is curious that there are no male scholarships for, say, art history (or something). Especially if the argument is lack of participation, which I find is the most common one put forward. Also I have seen classes at my university that are female only, we also have women's space, women's fest, and a women's rights officer with no male equivalents, curious. I'm not entirely convinced that these types of separation are really necessary anymore but would like to hear other opinions on this.



*Genderless might also apply in this case?