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Present a BETTER explanation for our existence than God

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arg-fallbackName="pjnlsn"/>
Japhia888 said:
http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/astronomy-cosmology-and-god-f15/the-extreme-fine-tuning-of-the-universe-t31-45.htm

All states of affairs are highly improbable, therefore every individual state of affairs is a 'miracle'.

However, although all combinations on a combination lock are equally improbable to obtain randomly, a bank manager does not think that anyone could open the lock by chance. No-one would explain a Shakespearian sonnet by a chimp typing randomly, although any randomly typed letter sequence is equally improbable ('I love you dearly' surely requires more explanation than 'asnhouyganpi;kvk klkjfl').


If you were to say that going from no life, no organic compounds, to multicellular life as we know it, is extremely improbable. Ludicrous even, and comparable to a chimp, banging away on a typewriter, producing the collected works of William Shakespeare. If you were to say that, you would be entirely right.

All states are equally probable, and equally improbable at the same time, if you are comparing those states to, essentially, a world in which they do not exist. The probablity of going of going from there being nothing, to anything at all, is infinitely small. This is what is really meant when someone says that ever individual state of affairs is a miracle. It is good that you recognize that this kind of statement, alone, is almost meaningless.

From no life to single celled is improbable. From no life to multicellular is impossible. Finally from no life to primate is so improbable that the number for this probability would have to be stashed with all the other probabilities beyond our understanding. It would be put in a sequence which has as it's terminator the probability of the entire universe at one time undefined, and at once becoming defined, and as it is now, with far flung but clustered stars and planets. I would define this probability ("something from nothing"), as being infinitely small, no other event is less likely.[/indent]

It is reasonable to say that life cannot have come about by "chance," because life as we are most familiar with it, is complex. Too much so.


We have found that DNA is the core of all life we have seen, and it is thought that DNA could have come from RNA, which, while less able to store genomic information like DNA, is self replicating and could have also existed, alone, without any real form of life, not even single celled. If anyone thinks that abiogenesis theories are ludicrous because they describe life, single celled, from inorganic, then that is because they are misinformed. Abiogenesis is largely concerned with how those self replicating molecules came about, and them alone. It is a much simpler problem than that of non life to cellular life. Perhaps they came from meteor bombardments, or were created by electrical activity in the atmosphere, discharging into primitive oceans, or perhaps they were created in the super hot vents deep in the ocean. These are the prevailing theories.

As far as the first cells, because their formation of a cell wall, or membrane, holding them together is thought to be crucial in their success, it is also thought that the kind of energy storage molecule which forms that cell wall, called lipids may have existed with or before RNA. We have also seen that lipids will spontaneously form a bilayer, as in hollow shell, but elastic, in the water. This last part is my own conjecture, but it seems to me that at one time there might have been RNA and lipids, and other complex molecules. Remember, this is not even simple life yet, just replicating molecules, and that over a great deal of time, partnerships were formed, lipids interacted and coexisted with RNA, and other types of molecules came together as well, until over all that time, the first single celled organism, composed of several molecular machines working in tandem, appeared.

From that point, life existing, nearly unchanged, single celled and primitive, for 2 billion years, until finally those simple machines came together to make even more complex machines all working together, and on to multicellular life, and onto arthropods, those primitive insects, makes the going from single celled to multi to the ancestors of insects, to reptiles, to birds, to primates, and so on, almost likely.



So, Japhia, is that not a good explanation for our existence? Better than God? A tad more interesting, certainly.


See this timeline on wikipedia for an overview: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_evolution
 
arg-fallbackName="Wayne"/>
Japhia888 said:
I have no proofs. But i have the bible, which says :

wow what a pointless debate. Sadly all debates with creationists are pointless, and that is the reason right there, no proof.
 
arg-fallbackName="Laurens"/>
Japhia888 said:
I have no proofs. But i have the bible, which says :
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arg-fallbackName="AndromedasWake"/>
Japhia888 said:
AndromedasWake said:
There is no 'right' position in our galaxy until you supply a meaningful metric for assessment. If the Galactic Habitable Zone is what you're hinting at, then we have quite a bit of leeway with where our Solar System is placed (about 7,000 light years to be sort of precise) but your second point is nothing short of absurd. We will ALWAYS observe stellar clouds, wherever we are in the galaxy, because a galaxy is a big bunch of stellar clouds. Our position prohibits us from clealy observing the far side of the Milky Way due to the observation shadow of the Galactic Centre, and as a keen visual observer, I can think of an effectively infinite number of places I'd like the Earth to be situated at in order to get a better view. By no means is our distance from the centre, or specific position in the Orion spur the only place where we can explore the Universe.

Perfect Viewing Station

http://www.realtruth.org/articles/070601-001-egpi.html

Our location in the solar system and galaxy allows for another fascinating related phenomenon: We can observe, measure, analyze and define our galactic neighborhood. Many would not even consider this, but it is extremely rare.

Much of the universe is pitch black. Other locations are densely packed with clusters of stars, making the sky far too bright to observe the vast array of celestial bodies. Is it mere coincidence that we are located in the perfect spot?

It is hard to call it mere coincidence that all the factors to produce conditions for advanced life are directly aligned with the conditions that make it possible to observe the universe. It would take a species as advanced as man to understand and measure the universe,and a galaxy, solar system and planet that is perfectly designed for mankind to develop!
If you'd read my post carefully, you'd have noted that I have already refuted this point. It's no surprise to find that the author of the article you're pasting - Bradford Schleifer - has no training in astronomy to speak of. It is not rare to be able to observe the galactic neighbourhood. You do not have to be situated where we are to do it; if that were the case, we ought not to be able to observe other galactic neighbourhoods in detail. But we can.

You need to research the Cosmological Principle, effectively a scaled up Copernican Principle, which states that the Universe appears approximately the same all around you wherever you are. This principle agrees well with our observations to date, with the CMB being highly isotropic, and a clear transition to homogeneity appearing at around the 70 Mpc scale. According to this principle, inhabitants of all galaxies will get similar information about the Universe that we do.

It's a straight lie that most of the Universe is pitch black. Our strongest cosmological models predict that wherever you go, you will observe radiation from other objects. You cannot just fly away from all the light sources. The author is lying, and if you condone his statements, so are you.

Secondly, densely packed areas of the galaxy (such as star nurseries) are not suitable for life as we know it, so it's no surprise that we don't find ourselves in one (see Anthropic Principle) and sun-like stars do not appear in dense clusters, such as globular clusters. They're characteristic of the outer spiral arms, so again, according to the Anthropic Principle we ought to find ourselves in the galactic suburbs. Even still, the suburbs are a huge place, and we cannot say that we're in the "pefect" spot, until you define what the requirements for perfection are. We can move the Sun around the disk of the galaxy in an annulus about 7,000 light years wide, and indeed the Sun has orbited the galaxy for billions of years, passing in and out of spiral arms and fluctuating in its distance to the GC.

The Anthropic Principle continues to explain your points, with 0% of the arrogance and none of the wild assumptions...
Consider the points covered:

(1) The size of our sun keeps Earth's temperature in the range necessary for life. The size of our star also does not flood our planet with radiation, which would make it impossible to observe and measure distant galaxies.

(2) Our metal-rich solar system allows for terrestrial planets and advanced life. This rich array of metals allows for technological advancement and the creation of tools to observe our world, solar system and universe.

(3) The location of the habitable zone means that life can flourish under an atmosphere perfect for viewing the night sky.

(4) The gas giants in our solar system are far enough away to shield the inner planets from asteroids and comets. This distance also means they do not block our view or distort observations with their gravitational effects.

(5) Planets in our solar system exhibit rare, nearly circular orbits, allowing the stability required for life. This also means extremely precise relational measurements can be made of our universe.

(6) Distance from other stars in the Milky Way keeps us from being bombarded with deadly radiation. This also means our night sky is dark, making viewing possible. If we were too close to the black hole in the galaxy's center, X-ray and gamma radiation would not only destroy life but make precise observations impossible!

Each characteristic allows for both life and discoverability! Could this just be an amazing coincidence?
Design vs. Coincidence is a logical fallacy called a false dilema. We live in a galaxy comprising approximately 300 billion stars (probably quite a bit more) and our planet has remained quite stable for several billion years - enough time for complex multicellular life to evolve. However, the sheer number of stars in our galaxy renders good odds that something similar has happened elsewhere. We have no grounds for demanding the conditions must be identical, because we do not have a particularly strict definition of life in astrobiological terms. We already know of numerous other Solar Systems in our galaxy, some with atmospheres not too disimilar to our own. Life is adapted to its environment, so even under more extreme conditions, it's plausible that more resilient life can arrise.

I have to make a special mention of point 3, which is pure bullshit. I'm an astronomer, and spend several nights a week visually observing the sky through the atmosphere with telescopes. It is by no means perfect for observing, else we wouldn't have concepts like "seeing". We use space telescopes to take extremely sharp and deep images of the Universe, because to achieve the same with ground-based telescopes requires only very recently developed and expensive technology (adaptive optics). This technology is used to bypass the fact that the atmosphere muddies our view of the Universe. Let's continue...
Your argument opened with two straight falsehoods, and continues with a backwards assessment of the oh-so-perfect world we inhabit. Consider for a moment that life arose and evolved by natural process, its survival contingent on its adaptability to the environment. This is where the evidence is pointing, so as a matter of reason it is more correct to say that life is adapted for Earth, rather than Earth being adapted for life.

http://academic.udayton.edu/WilliamRichards/Intro%20essays/Collins,%20Fine-tuning.htm

Almost everything about the basic structure of the universe,for example, the fundamental laws and parameters of physics and the initial distribution of matter and energy,is balanced on a razor's edge for life to occur. As eminent Princeton physicist Freeman Dyson notes, "There are many. . . lucky accidents in physics. Without such accidents, water could not exist as liquid, chains of carbon atoms could not form complex organic molecules, and hydrogen atoms could not form breakable bridges between molecules" (1979, p. 251),in short, life as we know it would be impossible.

Scientists and others call this extraordinary balancing of the fundamental physical structure of the universe for life the "fine-tuning of the cosmos." It has been extensively discussed by philosophers, theologians, and scientists, especially since the early 1970s, with many articles and books written on the topic. Today, many consider it as providing the most persuasive current argument for the existence of God. For example, theoretical physicist and popular science writer Paul Davies claims that with regard to basic structure of the universe, "the impression of design is overwhelming" (Davies, 1988, p. 203).

Many examples of this fine-tuning can be given.1 One particularly important category of fine-tuning is that of the constants of physics. The constants of physics are a set of fundamental numbers that, when plugged into the laws of physics, determine the basic structure of the universe. An example of such a constant is the gravitational constant G that is part of Newton's law of gravity, F = GM1M2/r2. G essentially determines the strength of gravity between two masses. If one were to double the value of G, for instance, then the force of gravity between any two masses would double.

So far, physicists have discovered four forces in nature,gravity, the weak force, electromagnetism, and the strong nuclear force that binds protons and neutrons together in an atom. Each of these forces has its own coupling constant that determines its strength, in analogy to the gravitational constant C. Using one of the standard dimensionless measures of force strengths (Barrow and Tipler, 1986, pp. 293-295), gravity is the weakest of the forces, and the strong nuclear force is the strongest, being a factor of 1040 -- or ten thousand billion, billion, billion, billion,times stronger than gravity.
In my earlier post I've already presented you with the refutation for the fine-tuning argument. Fine-tuning is speculative; possibly an illusion, possibly a real phenomenon. In the latter case, we may be inhabiting one of a very large number of Universes, in which case the Anthropic Principle necessarily demands we observe one which is inhabitable. On the other hand, there may be just one unique Universe which is fine-tuned. This is what you'd like to be the case, even though there is no more basis for believing it than the alternative.

So you can argue design against chance (assuming the mechanism is a lottery), yet you cannot make a rational argument for the existence of God; only an advanced alien species. If God exists, it does not need to fine-tune the Universe for life, because it has the capability to sustain life in any Universe. Indeed, in order to make a reasoned argument for the existence of God, you'd be better off showing that the Universe is fine-tuned to disallow life, and yet we're here regardless. That would be proof of a miracle.

Now, please present me with some of your original reasoning, rather than copying and pasting trash from other sites. Oh, and please get back to me about your claim that Jupiter removes all asteroids threats, despite evidence to the contrary which you can actually go and stand in.
 
arg-fallbackName="borrofburi"/>
Japhia888 said:
borrofburi said:
Do you understand that the following attempt at a logical argument is a fallacy (circular argument)?
1) God did it
2) therefore god exist

Thank you for not splitting up my post.
your answer is THAT MUCH wrong in all accounts, i am not even motivated to answer it properly. it makes no sense.

I'll take that as a "no I do not understand that it is a logical fallacy". You should take a course in logic (also a course in information theory and in biology, since to date you have displayed a very poor understanding of both of those (failing both challenges to show that you have even a cursory understanding of either field)). I mean, really, how can you expect to be taken seriously (especially to be considered "rational") when you fail to understand even basic first order logic? Or even failing that: how can you expect to be taken seriously when you simply ignore posts that you find inconvenient, making absurd claims of superiority while failing to even attempt to address the questions raised?


All your arguments are god of the gaps arguments (we don't understand something therefore god did it), arguments from incredulity (I can't explain this therefore no explanation exists therefore god did it), and arguments from ignorance (prove me wrong!) as well as just ignorant arguments (namely your failure to understand basic logic, basic information theory, and basic evolutionary biology (and, evidently, from AW's posts, basic astro-physics and astronomy)):
-kalaam: we don't know the precise details of the beginning of the universe therefore god did it
-fine tuning: our models have problems, therefore god created the universe
-abiogenesis: we don't know the precise details of RNA-DNA formation therefore god did it
-DNA: I am incredulous at the idea that DNA is just a molecule operating by chemical rules and it seems extra special, therefore god did it (this one also relies heavily on the frankly dishonest fallacy of equivocation)
-moral arugment: I can't understand how social morality could evolve, therefore god did it (this one is primarily an argument from incredulity)


Moreover all your arguments fall prey to a circular logical fallacy of the form:
1) god did it
2) therefore god exists
which presumes, in the antecedent, the conclusion
 
arg-fallbackName="lrkun"/>
The thread starter alleges the following positions:

a. God did it, therefore we exist.

b. There is no proof for god, however the bible says god exists, therefore there is a god.

In alternative, we provide the following positions:

a. Science has an explanation for our existence.

b. The explanations can be observed via technology.

In conclusion, our positions explain better why we exist and therefore are far better than the explanation than god did it.
 
arg-fallbackName="TheFlyingBastard"/>
Where in the process of transcription is the literal code, Japha?
Why do you continuously post from sources that have been proven to be wrong or lying, Japha?
Why can't you count back from now into infinity, Japha?
Why are you ignoring that people have given you a better explanation than God, Japha?
Why do you ignore the fact that the universe doesn't run on pure chance, Japha?
Why do you run away when you are confronted with your fallacies, Japha?
Why aren't you answering these questions, Japha?
 
arg-fallbackName="lrkun"/>
TheFlyingBastard said:
Where in the process of transcription is the literal code, Japha?
Why do you continuously post from sources that have been proven to be wrong or lying, Japha?
Why can't you count back from now into infinity, Japha?
Why are you ignoring that people have given you a better explanation than God, Japha?
Why do you ignore the fact that the universe doesn't run on pure chance, Japha?
Why do you run away when you are confronted with your fallacies, Japha?
Why aren't you answering these questions, Japha?

Not putting words in japhia's mouth, but I think he or she doesn't know the answer. I don't remember finding answers in the bible for such questions. hehe.
 
arg-fallbackName="he_who_is_nobody"/>
I would like to know if there could be better monitoring of this thread. I mean right now it seems Japhia888 is no better than a bot. The only thing he is doing is copying and pasting from websites based on key terms and phrases posted to him.
I am not saying to block him, but encourage him to post his opinion in is own words. He already cites the source he uses before copying and pasting from it. He needs to paraphrase and source. There is no point in the wasted space he is taking up with his copy/paste.
 
arg-fallbackName="Squawk"/>
he_who_is_nobody said:
I would like to know if there could be better monitoring of this thread. I mean right now it seems Japhia888 is no better than a bot. The only thing he is doing is copying and pasting from websites based on key terms and phrases posted to him.
I am not saying to block him, but encourage him to post his opinion in is own words. He already cites the source he uses before copying and pasting from it. He needs to paraphrase and source. There is no point in the wasted space he is taking up with his copy/paste.


Point taken.
 
arg-fallbackName="Story"/>
Japhia888 said:
All states of affairs are highly improbable, therefore every individual state of affairs is a 'miracle'.

So, we can make the same argument, as you're making for fine-tuning, for everything. There is nothing in the universe that isn't improbable. Therefore, improbability isn't an issue worth considering, because it's just like everything else.
 
arg-fallbackName="Deleted member 619"/>
Japhia888 said:
All states of affairs are highly improbable, therefore every individual state of affairs is a 'miracle'.

Nonsense. Improbable =/= impossible. Given a large enough sample set, even the ridiculously improbable is inevitable.

Serial trials fallacy writ large.
 
arg-fallbackName="DepricatedZero"/>
he_who_is_nobody said:
I would like to know if there could be better monitoring of this thread. I mean right now it seems Japhia888 is no better than a bot.
Shit I'm busted.

This has all been a faux Turing Test to try out my new chatterbot. I've come to the grim realization that Religion is the necessary component for AI to seem lifelike.
 
arg-fallbackName="borrofburi"/>
DepricatedZero said:
he_who_is_nobody said:
I would like to know if there could be better monitoring of this thread. I mean right now it seems Japhia888 is no better than a bot.
Shit I'm busted.

This has all been a faux Turing Test to try out my new chatterbot. I've come to the grim realization that Religion is the necessary component for AI to seem lifelike.
I actually had this idea earlier (I'm pretty sure I even wrote a post telling him to contribute more because he's contributing as much as a bot and is therefore bannable) (and then I decided to try different argument styles just for fun). Though my thoughts were not that religion is necessary for AI, but that fundamentalist thought patterns and responses are simplest to emulate, so instead of starting with the super ambitious goal of emulating, say, a genius scientist they figured they could easily emulate a biblethumping fundamentalist copy pasta christian, and using poe's law they could actually pass the turing test.
 
arg-fallbackName="nemesiss"/>
if you wanted to make it look more human (cause intelligent would almost be a contradiction) use more wide-spread source material. the fact that it used one site over and over as its source kinda gave it away that the person, in this case a fundi-bot, is a complete mental retard.

it would be interesting if you could make a bot that could counter the fundi arguments and then have the two bots do battle and see whos the winner.
 
arg-fallbackName="Beldin"/>
the kalaam cosmological argument is not a god of the gaps argument
yes it is
the fine tune argument isnt either
yes it is. also, it's a logical fallacy: confuses causes with consequences
the abiogenesis argument isnt it either
no, it's a scientific hypothesis
the DNA argument isnt it either
it's a logical fallacy: DNA isn't a code
the moral argument isnt it either.
moral has nothing to do with scientific explanation
 
arg-fallbackName="Squawk"/>
hackenslash said:
Japhia888 said:
All states of affairs are highly improbable, therefore every individual state of affairs is a 'miracle'.

Nonsense. Improbable =/= impossible. Given a large enough sample set, even the ridiculously improbable is inevitable.

Serial trials fallacy writ large.


I kinda read that the other way hack, I read as him refuting his own position (again). Ie, any given state is almost infintesimally improbable, but at least one state must exist (the current state), and could be considered to be miraculous. Only an idiot would mistake that for an actual miracle though, it has to be in some state or other.
 
arg-fallbackName="nemesiss"/>
TheFlyingBastard said:
nemesiss said:
the person, in this case a fundi-bot, is a complete mental retard.
Pleonasm.

not nessecarily, some fundi's are just ignorant (example: GEERUP), some are lying through their teeth cause they know better but they don't like it ( ray comfort, kent hovind, the DI ) and of course you got the really dumb people ( venomfangx and nephilimfree )
 
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