Pirate Party UK

[ImprobableJoe]

I have to say that, whilst I may have a few things I got without paying for on my drive, I know I would have NO legal recourse should someone decide to raid my house. I would have no argument at all beyond some vague nonsense about "You can't stop the signal." I'm with Joe, how can you defend it? Downloading for free what you previously would have had to buy in a physical sense is theft.

And why are a lot of people doing it? Is it because it's somehow "right" for a shitload of people to avoid paying for stuff? No, it's because a lot of people CAN, very easily, without being easily traced or caught.

Should there arise some means by which people can beat someone up without being caught, I'm sure violence would rise drastically. That wouldn't legitimise the crime in the first place.

A Serenity quote always scores extra points... :lol:

I've never seen anyone even attempt to justify theft, besides complaints about The Man being mean and evil for charging so much, which isn't a justification at all. Hey, if you want to be a thief... knock yourself out. The ridiculous part is when people are stealing from other folks, and then try to dress up their pathetically self-serving and ethically wrong behavior in a veneer of rebellion or freedom-fighting.

 

[ahdkaw]

Lost my entire post thanks to my ISP dropping my connection, I'm not typing it again.

 

[Tsunamie]

Sorry, I wanted to watch Joe dig his own hole for a while

ImprobableJoe - Please watch the lecture below to understand what we are fighting for.

Your simplistic argument on copyright and patent's law is in short; frustrating. If you want, I can show you some serious screwed up concepts which is used by the medical industry to justify there hording of money using copyright. Or I can show you a big brother model the media companies want to implement from this monopoly of media?

http://video.google.co.uk/videosearch?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-GBfficial&hs=IY3&ei=obweSpmLJZO7jAe21fWVDQ&resnum=0&q=google%20video%20piracy&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv#q=copyright&hl=en&emb=0&client=firefox-a

 

[ImprobableJoe]

ImprobableJoe - Please watch the lecture below to understand what we are fighting for.

Your simplistic argument on copyright and patent's law is in short; frustrating. If you want, I can show you some serious screwed up concepts which is used by the medical industry to justify there hording of money using copyright. Or I can show you a big brother model the media companies want to implement from this monopoly of media?

You know what's really frustrating? The fact that no one actually wants to argue for their position, while making snide personal comments about me.

If you have an argument, lay it the fuck out already. I'm not going to watch an hour-long video, or read 5-6 books. Lay out a position, reason your way to your point... we might not agree at the end, but at the very least it will be interesting! You can start by explaining why we should "fight against copyright and patent law." Don't people who produce ideas have a right to ownership of those ideas, the same way you have a right to the fruits of your labor?

 

[ahdkaw]

You know what's really frustrating? The fact that no one actually wants to argue for their position, while making snide personal comments about me.

It's the way of the world, especially when you label everyone around you as thieves.

If you have an argument, lay it the fuck out already. I'm not going to watch an hour-long video, or read 5-6 books. Lay out a position, reason your way to your point... we might not agree at the end, but at the very least it will be interesting! You can start by explaining why we should "fight against copyright and patent law." Don't people who produce ideas have a right to ownership of those ideas, the same way you have a right to the fruits of your labor?

If you refuse to educate yourself in the matter, why would anyone else bother?

To cover all this takes a lot of research into the historical and social issues, so blanket statements just will not do.

Of course people are entitled to monetary compensation for their works, but there are other ways of doing it. However, without spending a little time researching these things yourself you will never know. Research is king, try it, you might like it. How much evidence do you want to ignore? There is plenty to go around. Already in this thread there has been two important links provided for anyones consumption.

Just a quick quote from one of the videos:

"He'll also outline the next steps in the pirates' strategy to change global copyright laws."

Notice the operative word here, change, not destroy.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

It's the way of the world, especially when you label everyone around you as thieves.

Just proud criminals, like yourself.

If you refuse to educate yourself in the matter, why would anyone else bother?

If you can't or won't present a position, besides that you're proud to not pay for things... then why would anyone bother with you? I'm pretty close to done with you as it is. You don't seem to meet the sort of ethical standard required for me to bother to interact with you on any level. I'm assuming you don't work for a living, so I'm sure you have lots of free time to steal from people who actually do work.

Moving on: If it is just "change" then why do you so actively defend theft? And why would it be called "Piracy Party" unless it is calling for stealing intellectual property? Criminal behavior IS IN THE NAME!

If you had just said "hey, I think they need to change the laws so that they aren't so strict" I wouldn't have called you a thief. Instead, you declared yourself a thief, and then sort of but not really tried to defend your blatantly unethical behavior.

I asked for an explanation for why I shouldn't consider piracy to be theft by selfish people with a deluded sense of entitlement. No one has even attempted to begin to present a case for why I'm wrong. All I've gotten in rationalizations for why it should be OK for you to steal... which means I should be allowed to come to your house and take everything you own, by your own nonsensical argument.

 

[ahdkaw]

Why do I bother? You are a waste of time.

iJoe: King of Invalid Assumptions.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Why do I bother? You are a waste of time.

iJoe: King of Invalid Assumptions.

Yeah, how silly of me to assume something called "Pirate Party" had to do with theft, after you defended stealing in post after post. I must be out of my mind.

 

[ahdkaw]

Props to GoodKat for that research article link, only just noticed it. Thanks.

For iJoe: Show me where I stated that I download movies, games, and music. You are a liar and quite incapable of rational thought. God wants you back.

 

[CosmicSpork]

The tone of this thread is rapidly diminishing into a flame war. Please try to keep it civil.

 

[Josan]

A formal debate would be much more awesome....

 

[ImprobableJoe]

A formal debate would be much more awesome....

If I got a formal explanation of what the goal of the Stealing People's Stuff Party is, that would eliminate the need for a debate, wouldn't it?

Really, so far I've just wondered how piracy isn't theft, and all I've gotten is rationalizations for why theft is sometimes acceptable, which seems to show that my first impression was correct.

 

[ahdkaw]

I am trying but I have already been accused by iJoe as being a thief and criminal, and I had to defend myself.

I will refrain from any further retaliatory insults to iJoe at your behest, Mr. Admin.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I am trying but I have already been accused by iJoe as being a thief and criminal, and I had to defend myself.

You're defending theft and criminal behavior. Whether or not you engage in it is immaterial. I apologize if I incorrectly said that you engage in the criminal activities you have promoted so passionately in this thread.

Let's not make this personal. I just want an explanation as to how stealing is only wrong sometimes.

 

[ahdkaw]

You're defending theft and criminal behavior. Whether or not you engage in it is immaterial. I apologize if I incorrectly said that you engage in the criminal activities you have promoted so passionately in this thread.

Let's not make this personal. I just want an explanation as to how stealing is only wrong sometimes.

Stop it now. You have refused to do even a little research, and you have called me a criminal.

I have explained, but you have not read my posts.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Stop it now. You have refused to do even a little research, and you have called me a criminal.

I have explained, but you have not read my posts.

I read your posts... didn't I? Was it someone else who posted this:

The fact of the matter is that, yes there are those who download movies, games, books, music, whatever day in day out. However the majority of these people are not burning them to CD/DVD/BluRay and selling them down the market for a fiver (which as far as I'm concerned deserve nothing more that jail as they are profitting from this trade). No, there are actually people out there that download then watch/listen/read and then delete, this could very well be classed as Fair Use.

How about this:

Without piracy my record collection would remain unlistened to for 15 years. But thankfully I can download what I have already bought and not have to wreck my vinyl or spend a ton of money on a new record deck. Also, without piracy how would we get a hold of 'deleted works'? They're certainly not for sale. And then what about all these cases of 'piracy' where a TV show which has been deleted have been able to rise from the dead and provide pleasure to millions of people who otherwise would have never experienced them (including TV channels who then re-broadcast this pirated material)?

Did you post that? Or was it someone else?

Once we establish that I've read it, and you posted it, can we discuss it? I don't need to "research" when I'm asking for your opinion and viewpoint.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

The tone of this thread is rapidly diminishing into a flame war. Please try to keep it civil.

Yeah, I think we're pretty close to done here.

 

[Möbiµs]

I want to take all these digital pirates, and put them to hard labor, and at the end of the day give their pay to random people passing by... just to see how much THEY like it.

Apples and oranges, you're criticizing capitalism, not file sharing. Copyright laws don't exist for you to get paid for the physical labour hours that you invest.

Don't people who produce ideas have a right to ownership of those ideas, the same way you have a right to the fruits of your labor?

Yes they do, but owning material things and claiming to own abstractions are two entirely separate matters. If I fold a piece of paper a certain way and get to copyright my idea, then your folded paper cannot resemble mine in any way. How can you not find that pathetic? It is childish, selfish and prevents progress from taking place.

Personally though, I couldn't care less about this area of the discussion. My main reason for voting for PP is freedom of knowledge. To have a society where anyone with the smallest of means could get the information they seek, whether it is; learning a new language, sharing and expanding ideas, promoting creativity or just sharing art with friends.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Apples and oranges, you're criticizing capitalism, not file sharing. Copyright laws don't exist for you to get paid for the physical labour hours that you invest.

So, intellectual labor is less valuable than physical labor? or is it simply easier to justify stealing intellectual labor.

Yes they do, but owning material things and claiming to own abstractions are two entirely separate matters. If I fold a piece of paper a certain way and get to copyright my idea, then your folded paper cannot resemble mine in any way. How can you not find that pathetic? It is childish, selfish and prevents progress from taking place.

Yeah, I can see how Metallica wanting to get paid for their songs is a impediment to progress... :roll:

Personally though, I couldn't care less about this area of the discussion. My main reason for voting for PP is freedom of knowledge. To have a society where anyone with the smallest of means could get the information they seek, whether it is; learning a new language, sharing and expanding ideas, promoting creativity or just sharing art with friends.

Two problems with that:

1) There are people willing to give away most necessary knowledge. Look at Wikipedia as an example.

2) The concept of "sharing" in this instance doesn't mean what you think it means. If I lend you a CD, and then you give it back, there is only one CD, and only one of us is listening to it at a time. "File sharing" is THEFT, because no one gives back their copy when they are done with it.

 

[Möbiµs]

So, intellectual labor is less valuable than physical labor? or is it simply easier to justify stealing intellectual labor.

You get paid according to the time and work you put in when it's physical. Hardly comparable to having an idea for one second and then receive royalty for the rest of your life without ever lifting a finger.

Yeah, I can see how Metallica wanting to get paid for their songs is a impediment to progress... :roll:

It would be stupid to deny the artists money for their efforts, but there are alternatives to the current primitive music industry. Do I even have to mention the numerous successful (and filthy rich) artists that promote and use file sharing to their advantage. How are they managing? It shouldn't be possible with all these bloody thieves stealing their music and not paying for it in your world, yet it is.

2) The concept of "sharing" in this instance doesn't mean what you think it means. If I lend you a CD, and then you give it back, there is only one CD, and only one of us is listening to it at a time. "File sharing" is THEFT, because no one gives back their copy when they are done with it.

Oh yeah, that makes perfect sense. I can almost envision an incident where that could happen.

"I read the e-book you gave me the other night, and I didn't really like it. Here you can have it back... What do you mean I can't return the experience and information that exist in my head? Take it back this instant!"

Can't you at least admit that copyright laws many times hinder progress regarding medicine, software development and other modern branches of technology all over the world?