So I have been wasting time trying to talk some sense into a very arrogant theist. I was originally thinking to post a more broad display of his claims regarding the theory of evolution, but it has occurred to me the members whom I need to answer these questions might not be interested in addressing walls of texts. Instead, I think I should refrain myself, for the time being, to one topic. Namely, irreducible complexity. The following is a response from him to someone who said creationists have never been able to substantiate the concept of irreducible complexity. As you can see, there is quite a lot of empty rhetoric so don't feel discouraged by the length of the comment.
>>Creationist: "What a silly thing to say.
It is really incredible to see how committed atheists don’t actually research what they are talking about. Even if you want to disagree, at least do your homework to properly understand the position you want to oppose before you say demonstrably wrong statements like “They have never even attempted to substantiate it”.
In fact they have substantiated it. Scott Minnich’s and others genetic knockout experiments have shown that the bacteria flagellum motor ceases to function if one or more pieces are removed. So, by definition it is irreducibly complex.
This is not even remotely controversial. Not even atheist ID hating biologists question it. Remove a piece and it is broken.
So we know for a fact that there is no simpler form or intermediary step in which the motor could have worked. Therefore there can be no evolutionary path for the motor.
Some atheist biologists and other desperate atheist dead-enders like to misrepresent IR and think if they can find a sub component that has some totally unrelated function that this somehow inexplicably disproves IR. That would be like saying that a nuclear submarine evolved from your IKEA furniture because in both there can be found stainless steel screws. Let me be charitable by saying that’s not really the best logic.
Furthermore, even the best examples they give (the type II secretion system) wouldn’t work anyway because it is at best a devolved system from the earlier flagellum motor. Its gene history shows its younger than the flagellum anyhow. Regardless, it doesn’t solve the problem of IR either way.
It pains me to state the obvious, but this just goes to show that the bulk of ID opposition is from people who don’t actually have any good arguments. All they have is a hatred of God and a desire to denigrate theists, especially christians."
>>>Non-Creationist "Evidence that Michael Behe is either incompetent, a liar, or both. You do need an open mind and the ability to think critically to understand this article, so let's see if you can manage it:"
http://sandwalk.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/michael-behes-final-thoughts-on-edge-of.html
>>Creationist: "I’m guessing though that you never really actually read the article, becuase in spite of some minor nit picking, it actually supports Behe. It just questions the degree of difficulty to get multiple mutations.
In fact the author, an ex University Biochemist, actually agrees with Behe that Darwinism is not capable of explaining everything it claims to be able to explain.
He says, and I quote:
“I am not a Darwinist and I don't usually rely on adaptationist explanations for complex phenomena with low probabilities. I'm not a big fan of natural selection.“
He follows up by saying:
“If Behe is simply objecting to a strict Darwinian process as an explanation of chloroquine resistance then I completely agree with him.”
So this supposed refutation of Behe’s claims actually supports him in many ways.
You need to do the right and honorable thing and retract your “liar” claim of Behe."
+ Another point he made about this subject to another person >>Creationist: "Your claim that Dover showed that There is no IC in the flagellar motor is also wrong. They just showed an unrelated syringe system that shared some of the same proteins and base parts. News flash......A syringe is not an acid powered spinning turbine propulsion system. The flagellar motor is indeed IC. The fact that parts of it can be used in other organisms cannot mean that the flagellar motor came from the syringe. Furthermore, all the evidence points to the fact that the syringe is a younger feature. So if anything, it shows “devolution” not evolution. To make your case worse, there is no known way that loose proteins can just self assemble, then somehow create new genetic coding and send it back to the DNA to get passed on for the assembly of future cells and organisms.
Behe is a practicing scientist who has published regularly in peer review journals. Your entire “peer review” argument is just a washed up talking point you picked up from some other atheist crackpot. Newton’s theory of gravity was not peer reviewed. Darwin’s Origin of species and Descent of Man were not published in peer review. Einstein’s theory of relativity was not published in peer review. Watson and Cricks reports on the double helix nature of DNA were not peer reviewed. So if you want to say that something needs to be peer reviewed to be science, you are going to have to discredit the majority of ideas from the most sound and orthodox theories in science. This argument you are repeating carries no weight."
>>Creationist: "What a silly thing to say.
It is really incredible to see how committed atheists don’t actually research what they are talking about. Even if you want to disagree, at least do your homework to properly understand the position you want to oppose before you say demonstrably wrong statements like “They have never even attempted to substantiate it”.
In fact they have substantiated it. Scott Minnich’s and others genetic knockout experiments have shown that the bacteria flagellum motor ceases to function if one or more pieces are removed. So, by definition it is irreducibly complex.
This is not even remotely controversial. Not even atheist ID hating biologists question it. Remove a piece and it is broken.
So we know for a fact that there is no simpler form or intermediary step in which the motor could have worked. Therefore there can be no evolutionary path for the motor.
Some atheist biologists and other desperate atheist dead-enders like to misrepresent IR and think if they can find a sub component that has some totally unrelated function that this somehow inexplicably disproves IR. That would be like saying that a nuclear submarine evolved from your IKEA furniture because in both there can be found stainless steel screws. Let me be charitable by saying that’s not really the best logic.
Furthermore, even the best examples they give (the type II secretion system) wouldn’t work anyway because it is at best a devolved system from the earlier flagellum motor. Its gene history shows its younger than the flagellum anyhow. Regardless, it doesn’t solve the problem of IR either way.
It pains me to state the obvious, but this just goes to show that the bulk of ID opposition is from people who don’t actually have any good arguments. All they have is a hatred of God and a desire to denigrate theists, especially christians."
>>>Non-Creationist "Evidence that Michael Behe is either incompetent, a liar, or both. You do need an open mind and the ability to think critically to understand this article, so let's see if you can manage it:"
http://sandwalk.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/michael-behes-final-thoughts-on-edge-of.html
>>Creationist: "I’m guessing though that you never really actually read the article, becuase in spite of some minor nit picking, it actually supports Behe. It just questions the degree of difficulty to get multiple mutations.
In fact the author, an ex University Biochemist, actually agrees with Behe that Darwinism is not capable of explaining everything it claims to be able to explain.
He says, and I quote:
“I am not a Darwinist and I don't usually rely on adaptationist explanations for complex phenomena with low probabilities. I'm not a big fan of natural selection.“
He follows up by saying:
“If Behe is simply objecting to a strict Darwinian process as an explanation of chloroquine resistance then I completely agree with him.”
So this supposed refutation of Behe’s claims actually supports him in many ways.
You need to do the right and honorable thing and retract your “liar” claim of Behe."
+ Another point he made about this subject to another person >>Creationist: "Your claim that Dover showed that There is no IC in the flagellar motor is also wrong. They just showed an unrelated syringe system that shared some of the same proteins and base parts. News flash......A syringe is not an acid powered spinning turbine propulsion system. The flagellar motor is indeed IC. The fact that parts of it can be used in other organisms cannot mean that the flagellar motor came from the syringe. Furthermore, all the evidence points to the fact that the syringe is a younger feature. So if anything, it shows “devolution” not evolution. To make your case worse, there is no known way that loose proteins can just self assemble, then somehow create new genetic coding and send it back to the DNA to get passed on for the assembly of future cells and organisms.
Behe is a practicing scientist who has published regularly in peer review journals. Your entire “peer review” argument is just a washed up talking point you picked up from some other atheist crackpot. Newton’s theory of gravity was not peer reviewed. Darwin’s Origin of species and Descent of Man were not published in peer review. Einstein’s theory of relativity was not published in peer review. Watson and Cricks reports on the double helix nature of DNA were not peer reviewed. So if you want to say that something needs to be peer reviewed to be science, you are going to have to discredit the majority of ideas from the most sound and orthodox theories in science. This argument you are repeating carries no weight."