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Dragan Glas said:You still claim that changes must be beneficial; that they must have occurred at the same time; that they must occur in one generation.
Dragan Glas said:Greetings,
And with regard to chloroquine resistance, your linked article was already addressed by Moran.
Kindest regards,
James
leroy said:borrofburi said:I see you went with the option of strengthening the premise. Let's call your refined version Premise A+, which you do indeed take as a given. But I don't accept it as a given; please justify Premise A+ without any arguments from incredulity: i.., that "intelligent design" is the only way you know of and that you can't think of any other way does not prove Premise A+ anymore than being incredulous at the idea that the world is roundish because people would fall off the bottom proves the world is flat.
Premise A+ is probably true because design is the only known mechanism that would create multiple independent and codependent systems at the same time. To me that is sufficient justification.
This is analogous to "Bats (Chiroptera) are probably the only order of mammals that can fly because no one has ever seen a flying mammal from an other order.
sure you can always appeal to the possibility of finding a flying mouse in some distant jungle, but until proven otherwise it would be perfectly reasonable to conclude that bats are the only mammals that can fly. In other words the burden proof is on the guy who claims that there is a flying mouse in the same way the burden proof is on the guy who affirms that there is an other mechanism that would create multiple independent and codependent systems at the same time.
so sure I cant prove with 100% certainty that design is the only mechanism, nor that bats are the only flying mammals, but it is reasonable to grant both as statements that are probably true.
he_who_is_nobody said:[
Rationalist: Defend your premise without using a logical fallacy.
Theist: I cannot, so let me double down on this logical fallacy.
:lol:
leroy said:he_who_is_nobody said:[
Rationalist: Defend your premise without using a logical fallacy.
Theist: I cannot, so let me double down on this logical fallacy.
:lol:
I would ask you to explain why/where is the logical fallacy, but I know I won’t get a direct answer.
borrofburi said:But I don't accept it as a given; please justify Premise A+ without any arguments from incredulity: i.., that "intelligent design" is the only way you know of and that you can't think of any other way does not prove Premise A+ anymore than being incredulous at the idea that the world is roundish because people would fall off the bottom proves the world is flat.
[Emphases added.]
leroy said:Premise A+ is probably true because design is the only known mechanism that would create multiple independent and codependent systems at the same time. To me that is sufficient justification.
But in this case the burden proof is on the guy who affirms that there are other alternatives.hackenslash said:Affirming the consequent is of the form P implies Q, Q, therefore P. In this instance, you've simply engaged in eliding all possible alternatives without consideration. Whether alternatives exist isn't predicated on you being able to think of them.
.
P implies Q, Q, therefore probably P
No, they don't - as my posts on the previous page, along with the linked threads, explained.leroy said:Dragan Glas said:You still claim that changes must be beneficial; that they must have occurred at the same time; that they must occur in one generation.
these are not mistakes
1 changes must be beneficial > if you are a selectionists then most changes leading to the evolution of the eye have to be positive
But they don't have to occur in one generation - as my posts on the previous page, along with the linked threads, explained.leroy said:2 that they must occur in one generation this is just semantics, it depends on how you define changes or steps. random mutations do ocurre within 1 generation, there is nothing controversial about that
No, they don't - as my posts on the previous page, along with the linked threads, explained.leroy said:3 that they must have occurred at the same time if more than 1 mutation is required to produce a benefit, then yes they all mutations would have to occurre at the same time in order to be selected by natural selection. this is true by definition.
That wasn't on what Moran doesn't disagree with Behe - it was that chloroquine resistance is extremely rare.leroy said:Moran, doesn't denies the main point made by Behe.Dragan Glas said:Greetings,
And with regard to chloroquine resistance, your linked article was already addressed by Moran.
Kindest regards,
James
evolving from "non chloroquine resistance" to "chloroquine resistance" requires múltiple independent mutations, each individual mutations is neutral (or delaterious) you need all mutations in order to have a benefit that would be selected by natural selection.
As has been pointed out to you by others, your understanding of evolution is out-of-date.leroy said:Moran tries to solve this by appealing to neutral mutations and genetic drift. but this "solution" inherits several problems.
1 if this "solution" represents how things usually "evolve" Darwinism (selectionism) would be wrong.
What he points out is that, if the detection rate is 10[sup]-20[/sup], then the actual occurrence in Nature must be higher. Hence why Behe's claimed probability is wrong.leroy said:2 Moran didn't show his math, what is the probability for "neutral mutation 1" to ocurre + the probability of fixation in mutation 1 + "neutral mutation 2" to ocurre + the probability of fixation in mutation 2" +"positive mutation 3" to ocurre + the probability of fixation mutation 3.?...............to me that sounds like climbing mount improbable.
All that's necessary to know is that the rate of occurrence is higher than the rate of detection.leroy said:3 now pretend that you are dealing with multicellular and sexual animals with slow reproductive rates. and recalculate the probabilities in point 2.
You're quoting this as if it comes from somewhere - would you kindly provide the source?leroy said:however up to this point at least we can agree on something.
"At least sometimes you need multiple independent mutations in order to gain a benefit that would be selected by natural selection."
Why would it be if it's only "at least sometimes"? That implies "most times" it's not necessary.leroy said:the only disagreement seems to be on whether if this represents a serious problem or not.
leroy said:But in this case the burden proof is on the guy who affirms that there are other alternatives.
do you admit that there is nothing ginvalid with this way of thinking?
P implies Q, Q, therefore probably P
hackenslash said:This only works for abduction, meaning that it gives a hypothesis to be tested, not a conclusion. When you conclude, you've deduced, and the fallacy is committed, or you've induced, and you're stuck with the problem of induction.
.
Fantastic, that would falsify premise A, just provide the datahackenslash said:All of which is by-the-by, since we have an alternative that is not only more plausible than an intelligent designer, but actualised in the real world and shown to work
Dragan Glas said:No, they don't - as my posts on the previous page, along with the linked threads, explained.
Dragan Glas said:But they don't have to occur in one generation - as my posts on the previous page, along with the linked threads, explained.
Dragan Glas said:No, they don't - as my posts on the previous page, along with the linked threads, explained.
Dragan Glas said:That wasn't on what Moran doesn't disagree with Behe - it was that chloroquine resistance is extremely rare.
On what he, and others, find fault is Behe's claim that the probability is 10[sup]-20[/sup].
Dragan Glas said:Selectionism and neutralism are not mutually exclusive - they are just aspects of evolution
leroy said:Again, no one is saying that premise A follows logically form the evidence, you are simply, asking a strawman. But don’t worry no one is expecting you to admit that you are wrong.
Fantastic, that would falsify premise A, just provide the data
hackenslash said:That would require that I be wrong. Not only am I not wrong, you don't possess the cognitive tools to be capable of assessing it.
No, stop lyingDone already, you stupid cunt. Fuck off.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:hackenslash said:Just not going there with you again. You're an inveterate liar, with absolutely nothing to recommend you, near as I can tell.
Go suck the cock of your preposterous magic man.
hackenslash said:As it happens, in this case, there is an alternative, and it's been elucidated in spades throughout the thread, and in the post I linked to
leroy said:All I am saying is that “A” is probably the only explanation for “X” because A is the only known explanation for “X”
[url=http://www.theleagueofreason.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=185090#p185090 said:he_who_is_nobody[/url]"]
:lol:
Rationalist: Defend your premise without using a logical fallacy.
Theist: I cannot, so let me double down on this logical fallacy.
:lol:
leroy said:This is like saying: given that "virus X" is the only known virus that would cause the symptoms that John is presenting, John probably is being infected by that virus and it would be reasonable to treat John accordingly
leroy said:If I were to bet I would say that you are the only member of this forum that believes that this logic is fallacious or invalid.