Covid-19 (Coronavirus)

[he_who_is_nobody]

Greetings,

I'm not suggesting that America, or any other country with a political axe to grind, carry out the investigation.

The WHO, and other global organisations should do that.

My key point is that the real cause needs to be identified - if we don't find out the causes of anything, we can never learn/adapt to such threats.

Kindest regards,

James

From the article I cited above:

So why has the lab leak hypothesis seemingly risen from its grave and shambled off to social media and the news? One reason is politics. However another reason is, quite simply, likely to be pandemic fatigue. Knowledge is power, and it is also comforting. If we were to know the origin of this pandemic, the thinking goes, then we would better know how to prevent future pandemics. Maybe so, but here’s the thing. Even if the lab leak hypothesis is true, and SARS-CoV-2 escaped from a lab in China, it would make absolutely zero difference in how we need to deal with the pandemic now.

...

What if, indeed. Early in the pandemic, knowing the source of an outbreak can certainly guide efforts to contain it, including contact tracing, shutting down specific sites of the outbreak, and quarantine anyone exposed to the virus. That time for COVID-19 came and went a long time ago. Even in the unlikely event that the lab leak hypothesis is confirmed, it won’t help us deal with the pandemic now. I’d even question just how much this knowledge would help us prevent future pandemics, except briefly, given that it is human nature to forget and any safety measures implemented would likely fade in intensity with time.

[Emphasis in original.]

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

I understand your point, HWIN, but if the pandemic was due to a leak from a lab, the important thing is to learn how.

If other labs in China and around the world, are following the same protocols that failed, then there are potentially lots of leaks just waiting to happen.

We need to find out if it leaked, how it leaked, and if it was due to a failure of safety protocols, changes to said safety protocols can be made.

If it's due to contact with virus-carrying wildlife at a street market, then different health and safety precautions need to be considered.

Kindest regards,

James

 

[Deleted member 42253]

@Dragan Glas So you suggest we send someone to China, a sovereign country, nuclear power and super power, investigate without any evidence that would back such an investigation up and then tell them how to run their labs?
You do realize how bad of an idea that is and that that is never going to happen?

Divisive COVID ‘lab leak’ debate prompts dire warnings from researchers

Allegations that COVID escaped from a Chinese lab make it harder for nations to collaborate on ending the pandemic — and fuel online bullying, some scientists say.

www.nature.com

 

[Deleted member 619]

I've been reasonably confident since March 2020 that it isn't a lab-borne virus, based only on the publication of the genome.

Lab-borne viruses have a common architecture, and the genome shows that this isn't that.

So you suggest we send someone to China, a sovereign country, nuclear power and super power, investigate without any evidence that would back such an investigation up and then tell them how to run their labs?

It's a bit more complicated than that. China is signatory to quite a lot of treaties on the sharing of scientific information, and the investigation of this outbreak is a matter of scientific concern as a simple function of mitigating future outbreaks. We can learn a lot, whatever the context of an investigation.

The only problem with all of this is the blather on social media that's been picked up by the mainstream. That's the real barrier to cooperation. People are incredibly dumb.

 

[Deleted member 42253]

It is not just a bit more complicated, it is a freaking geopolitical nightmare and a diplomatic super gau.

And its not just social media, the public discussion of this has quite some far reaching consequences, from racists being emboldened to act on their impulses(harassing and beating up random asians) over republicans using it for political gain, to a possible cold war with China, nevermind that it makes international cooperation really hard, especially for experts in the field.

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

HWIN, it was an American scientist who worked with the Wuhan lab on safety protocols, so there shouldn't be any issues with a WHO team working with them either.

Hack, just because it's not engineered in the lab - and at no point have I believed or implied that - doesn't mean they weren't studying it, and others, for medical reasons. It might have escaped from a lab.

Either way, we do need to know.

The media's reporting, and the public's perception, should not affect what needs to be done. Again, no-one's suggesting that we transgress China's sovereignty.

Kindest regards,

James

 

[Deleted member 42253]

The media's reporting, and the public's perception, should not affect what needs to be done.

You do realize, Fox News has been ruling the US the last 4 years, dont you? Thats simply not how the world works.

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

And now Fox News has fallen from grace.

Kindest regards,

James

 

[he_who_is_nobody]

Greetings,

And now Fox News has fallen from grace.

Kindest regards,

James

The link you provided does not work.

 

[Sparhafoc]

I disagree about the investigation part though Sparhafoc, there is no way the US can or should do it. Would be less opposed though, if someone else did it, like .. I dunno .. Belgium.

Well, for me the only credible source would be the WHO.

 

[Deleted member 42253]

Problem is, the WHO can not participate in this, cause they will never, ever be allowed into China again if they do.
And we kinda need them to have access to China right now and in the future.
There is a good reason, doctors do not tattle.

 

[Deleted member 619]

Problem is, the WHO can not participate in this, cause they will never, ever be allowed into China again if they do.

I'd like to see the dots joined up here. Why would investigating the origin of this virus bar the WHO from entering China? You know that a lot of the research in virology and epidemiology carried out in this and other labs dotted around the world is largely UN funded via the WHO, yes?

This sounds more like manufactured skullduggery than anything real.

 

[Sparhafoc]

Problem is, the WHO can not participate in this, cause they will never, ever be allowed into China again if they do.

That's China's look out.

The WHO has a duty which they need to fulfill, and China can either submit to the same regulations as everyone else, or it can go rogue.

No one would want China doing that, but we can't be held to hostage over fear of them throwing their toys out of the pram.

And we kinda need them to have access to China right now and in the future.
There is a good reason, doctors do not tattle.

I'm not clear what that's got to do with an investigation like this.

The WHO might employ doctors to perform aspects of the investigation, but they're not acting as practitioners - there's no physician-patient privilege between WHO doctors and the nation of China.

 

[Deleted member 42253]

I'd like to see the dots joined up here. Why would investigating the origin of this virus bar the WHO from entering China? You know that a lot of the research in virology and epidemiology carried out in this and other labs dotted around the world is largely UN funded via the WHO, yes?

You really do not see why the Chinese government would bar the WHO from entry into their country, if their mere presence there is being exploited by the US to rile up sentiments against China?
They are barely tolerating the WHOs presence in China to begin with .. and even that takes lots of ass kissing from the WHO.

@Sparhafoc The issue is trust, much like the trust between a patient and a doctor, a nation has to trust an medical organisation. If they do not, there will be no cooperation with them, simple as that.

 

[Deleted member 619]

Yeah, I honestly don't grok where that entire line of reasoning comes from. China is signatory to oodles of treaties with the world and Europe on cooperation in scientific research of all stripe, and is a beneficiary of those treaties. The WIV is closely tied to other institutes around the world, including Galveston National Laboratory, with whom it has been conducting hand-in-glove research on gain of function in coronaviruses.

Scientific research is one of the few areas in which borders can be and are made to dissolve, quite simply because everybody recognises that it's in the interest of all of us. China's booming economy is founded on the manufacturing, especially in technology and large-engineering. Scuppering a WHO investigation into the origin of the outbreak will not be good for that, and they know it.

All of this is just the usual mindless conspiracy bollocks that people apply to absolutely everything.

 

[Deleted member 619]

They are barely tolerating the WHOs presence in China to begin with .. and even that takes lots of ass kissing from the WHO.

Do you have a source for this?

 

[Deleted member 42253]

WHO and China: a healthy relationship? - France 24

WHO and China: a healthy relationship?

www.france24.com

Why Taiwan has become a problem for WHO

Taiwan is effectively locked out of the World Health Organization - and tensions are rising.

www.bbc.com

For example, the relationship of the WHO with China is pretty rocky even on good days and a masterclass of diplomacy from the WHO. Basically, they have to do a lot of ass kissing to get anywhere in China.

And btw. how is it conspiratorial to point out, that the WHO has no authority and is completly relying on cooperation with the governments of the countries they go to? The WHO has no power and no authority, like .. at all.

 

[Deleted member 619]

WHO and China: a healthy relationship? - France 24

WHO and China: a healthy relationship?

www.france24.com

Why Taiwan has become a problem for WHO

Taiwan is effectively locked out of the World Health Organization - and tensions are rising.

www.bbc.com

OK, I'm not seeing anything in there that suggests that China is 'barely tolerating the WHO's presence'. I see a piece about the blatherings of idiots to that effect, but that's not a source showing there's a problem. The second is a representative of the WHO refusing to be drawn on a question that isn't in his remit to answer. The question of Taiwain's status as an independent nation is irrelevant to this enterprise, and it's not for the WHO or any of their representatives to discuss, it's a matter for the UN general council.

He he actually been silly enough to be drawn on the question, it would almost certainly have resulted in a souring of the relationship.

For example, the relationship of the WHO with China is pretty rocky even on good days and a masterclass of diplomacy from the WHO. Basically, they have to do a lot of ass kissing to get anywhere in China.

That's not ass-kissing, that's refusing to be drawn on a question that they recognise quite correctly isn't in their remit to answer.

I'm seeing no evidence of a rocky relationship between the WHO and China, just the usual tentative diplomatic dance that's always been a feature of international relationships. I also see a lot of people who have no grasp of international diplomacy, or indeed logic, throwing rhetorical faeces around and seeing what sticks, and other people buying it. Wherefore scepticism?

And btw. how is it conspiratorial to point out, that the WHO has no authority and is completly relying on cooperation with the governments of the countries they go to? The WHO has no power and no authority, like .. at all.

Well, if that was the contention I'd responded to, you might have a point. It isn't, however, the contention I was responding to. At no point in any of the above was that the central point or even remotely connected to the central point of anything I responded to. Of course the WHO relies on its relationships. As for no authority, the WHO is an agency of the United Nations, of which China is a permanent member. It's a matter of international law that they themselves are signatories to.

Like I said, mindless blather from the uninformed. Meanwhile, still no evidence that China is 'barely tolerating the WHO's presence'.

 

[Deleted member 42253]

The WHO(or WHO spokespeople) not being able to even talk about Taiwan, as to not get into the political clusterfuck, seems very relevant and a good indicator for how delicate its relationship with China is.

And ass-kissing is just my hyperbolic way of saying "diplomacy".

You seem to be seriously overestimating the amount of influence the WHO and UN have on China and completly underestimating the delicate political tightrope walk it takes, to get China to cooperate with anyone.

 

[Deleted member 619]

As an interesting aside, it's worth noting that the status of Taiwan would have been resolved in 1952, except that the US and UK governments couldn't agree on whether the People's Republic of China or the Republic of China (Taiwan) were the legitimate government of all of China.

The US, freshly infected with the McCarthyist mind-virus that still runs through their veins to this day, sided with the Kuomintang, because they didn't want the communists to take over. They were always going to, but this stupid row has infected Sino-World relationships ever since.