A religious girl or boyfriend...

[Synystyr]

My husband is a Christian. He's pretty liberal in his beliefs - he accepts evolution and rejects a lot of the bigoted ways of fundamentalism. He does believe in the after life, and he believes that at one point the universe was created by his God. As an atheist who believes firmly in the right of people to believe as they do, I have no problem with his beliefs and wouldn't dream of changing them.

I think I would have drawn the line at a religious person who was anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-evolution, and harbored any form of dislike towards different (harmless) beliefs. I couldn't live the rest of my life with someone who thought like that (nor would I find myself attracted to them for very long).

Is he a Christian by basic tenants, or does he believe Jesus was immaculately conceived and the only son of god, or dare I say both?

 

[Aught3]

er, I thought Mary was the immaculate conception or is that not mainstream christian view?

 

[Ozymandyus]

Yeah, Mary was born without original sin (immaculate conception) and jesus was born without a father, and without original sin (virgin birth). Immaculate conception is a Catholic thing only mostly to my knowledge, and maybe a few other christian sects.

Man, I used to believe some of this stuff! Well, not really, but I used to say the words when I was little!

One of the many funny contradictions is that god just willed Mary born without original sin, but Jesus HAD to die on the cross to save the rest of us from sin. The whole thing would be hilarious if it wasn't so darn sad.

 

[RestrictedAccess]

Is he a Christian by basic tenants, or does he believe Jesus was immaculately conceived and the only son of god, or dare I say both?

I know he believes in Jesus, but I don't think he believes in the virgin birth. As for whether he think Jesus was the son of God, it's never come up.

 

[FreakyName]

Yeah, Mary was born without original sin (immaculate conception) and jesus was born without a father, and without original sin (virgin birth). Immaculate conception is a Catholic thing only mostly to my knowledge, and maybe a few other christian sects.

Man, I used to believe some of this stuff! Well, not really, but I used to say the words when I was little!

One of the many funny contradictions is that god just willed Mary born without original sin, but Jesus HAD to die on the cross to save the rest of us from sin. The whole thing would be hilarious if it wasn't so darn sad.

A little off topic, but virgin births are averagely common in pre-Christian gods. I can't think of any specific names off the top of my head, but they're out there. By the way, Th1sWasATriumph, good to hear man. Reason is the only thing that separates us from the people who want to kill us.

 

[FCAAP_Dan]

Been dating a girl for almost 8 years now. We make it work....we just don't talk about it.

She incorrectly calls my Skeptic magazine my "Scientology magazine."

Not just Christian, she's pentecostal!!!!

If I can do it, anyone can do it!

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Been dating a girl for almost 8 years now. We make it work....we just don't talk about it.

She incorrectly calls my Skeptic magazine my "Scientology magazine."

Not just Christian, she's pentecostal!!!!

If I can do it, anyone can do it!

Ummmm... just dating? After 8 years? Should we read anything into that?

 

[Aught3]

A little off topic, but virgin births are averagely common in pre-Christian gods. I can't think of any specific names off the top of my head, but they're out there.

Was Horus born of a virgin?

 

[WizardofCalculus]

Like the thread by ajh, I would like to hear peoples opinions on maintaining relationships, but a serious one. Since this seems to be a secular, atheistic and mostly 'anti-religion,' I thought this would be interesting.

If you met or had known a great person - girl or guy - that you like just about everything about and could see a lot of potential in dating, but they were very religious, what would you do? Would you suck it up and work past it, ignore it, something else? Would you try and help him or her over the perceived speed bump? Would you not be willing to have a serious relationship with such a dogmatic and hypocritical belief system?

To give perspective on the views of the person, let us just take - oh, I know not - just your favorite YouTube Christian or something as an example of the person's beliefs.

So, how much does dogma, religion and related beliefs play a role in maintaining a serious relationship?

It's, in general, a bad plan, I think. Unless you're both very apathetic.

 

[irmerk]

It's, in general, a bad plan, I think. Unless you're both very apathetic.

Why do you think this, out of curiosity?

 

[rulezdaworld0]

I just couldnt. Yeah, I'm, only 16 but I do spend alot of time thinking and discussing about things like religion. I havent yet met a fundie, but I dont think I'll get along with one. Especially marrying one, even if she was perfect apart from her differing beliefs I would find it impossible. And I certainly wouldnt date them just to change their beliefs.

 

[Th1sWasATriumph]

So, I guess my disdain (for the belief but not her) slips out despite my best efforts and I get accused of being an intellectual snob and intolerant (because I don't accept the bible as proof). Still, I did get her to admit that some things she believed in didn't make sense.

The problem is challenging without becoming disdainful, which is incredibly hard. If you've got her to admit some things don't make sense, that's a start.

If you've not already, try these ones:

Why doesn't she believe in other Gods? And then apply that right back at her God.
If you believe in it all, you must believe that for 100k years heaven watched us struggle and die young and live terrible lives - and then, a few thousand years ago, decided to intervene. (Hitchens argument, worked well for me.)
How can she discount the dating of the age of the earth when so many aspects of modern science use the same process with success?
Show her the Hubble Deep Field and ask her how she can think we're special or have purpose.

I mean, you know all this already I'm sure. If she's Catholic, ask how someone can murder damn near everyone, commit atrocities, and still go to heaven - but not believing in God sends you to hell.

Anyway, your experience has given me some hope that things could work out. Thanks

Good luck! But don't break her spirit. I went a bit too far and depressed her for a while.

 

[WolfAU]

I don't care what my partner believes in, so long as they accept that beliefs without evidence are just that, they lack substantiated evidence, and therefore not certain. This applies to if she believed in psychic abilities, aliens, ghosts, certain spiritual concepts etc.

All things being equal I would likely date an atheist/skeptic, however if I met a great theist, who was more ideal than an atheist, I would date her happily, with the following points kept in mind...

- No arguing 'repent or burn in hell'.
- Any children would be free to choose their beliefs.
- She was not 'in my face' about her religion (including overt praying, dragging me to church etc).
- Either we wouldn't talk about our beliefs, or she would follow something resembling acceptable logical form.
- Evolution is fact, if she could not accept that I would likely see her as far too dogmatic or foolish.

These rules I apply to all would-be girlfriends regardless.
- A healthy level of curiosity, skepticism, self doubt, logic, wisdom, perceptiveness, empathy etc.
- A healthy respect for science (I'm a scientist, I can't really see how a relationship is possible without it), and some mild respect for video games (I'm a gamer, she doesn't need to love them, but I've been with women who hated them, those were really doomed to fail).
- Having reasonable emotional control (ie not prone to random outbursts for whatever reason).
- A strong motivation to be self reliant, and self improvement.

Though this raises the issue of by what standard is the theist better than her skeptic counterpart. For starters scientists generally date within the industry, as going out with a few girls who quickly become frustrated because they don't understand you (ie complex logic). So likely my kickass theistic babe is also a trained scientist, therefore likely logically trained, which to me starts sounding like she is engaging in double think, religious in title only, or loses some excuse (ie she should know better).

I suppose the point I'm making is that I do not object to dating a theist in and of itself, however I cannot see that ever happening because of the symptoms of belief, such as not questioning things are what I care about, and almost always go hand in hand.

Also it would depend how fanatical she was, ie what Goodcat was saying about seeing if they will budge on an issue. This however is true of any belief system, not just theistic ones, ie I'd take an intelligent Christian over a fanatical feminist, environmentalist, animal liberationist etc anyday.

Also, in response to some comments in the thread, I feel we should acknowledge that it is near impossible for two people to meet who have near identical political, philosophical and theological beliefs. For instance my girlfriend may be against my humanist/nihilist philosophies or my stances on feminism, gun laws, animal rights, environmental issues, issues like total nuclear disarmament, socialism etc.

 

[Th1sWasATriumph]

I don't care what my partner believes in, so long as they accept that beliefs without evidence are just that, they lack substantiated evidence, and therefore not certain. This applies to if she believed in psychic abilities, aliens, ghosts, certain spiritual concepts etc.

I have to say, that sounds pretty rare. The ability to say "I believe in God, but who knows? The evidence is sketchy at best, what's your view?" and cope well with incisive debate very seldom goes hand in hand with unsubstantiated beliefs. The views might not be as IMPORTANT to some as to others (as with my girlfriend), but she still thought they were completely valid. As soon as someone can admit that their beliefs are uncertain and open to question they sort of stop believing, in my experience.

 

[ebbixx]

As soon as someone can admit that their beliefs are uncertain and open to question they sort of stop believing, in my experience.

Not in mine, but perhaps this is a characteristic of Christian believers?

Most of the people I know personally who retain a connection to the forms and rituals of a religion while doubting practically all of its claims to truth value have tended to be non-Christian. They go to temple or synagogue and practice whatever rituals they do mainly for the comfort and connection to a tradition that they share with parents, family and childhood friends. Perhaps they harbor some sense that there are remaining mysteries in the material Universe that they associate with the word "God" or its various equivalents.

But they're also open (or maybe they just tell me this to get me off their case) to the possibility that there's nothing there except things yet to be understood and explained in a naturalistic way. Though at least some of these eventually parted ways from the organizations that welcomed their questioning approach to deity and ritual.

Not saying this to contradict or be contentious. Just sharing another perspective.

 

[WolfAU]

As soon as someone can admit that their beliefs are uncertain and open to question they sort of stop believing, in my experience.

Not always the case, but there are few people who can take such a dispassionate, academic approve to metaphysics, interested in hearing arguments to the contrary of their own.

The main reason for this is we associate certain things with our belief. An example is my Grandmother on my fathers side became a Jehova's witness after the death of her daughter, and the promise of being united with her in heaven was very compelling. For her to now admit there is no God and no heaven would require her to give up this hope, something I cannot see her doing. This is true of most people, as most have lost loved ones, the belief in some divine plan that they are a part of (offering their seemingly meaningless life purpose, something we all crave) and the promise of divine intervention when it is really needed.

If theists cling to these they will not only resist conversion, but become very dogmatic, defensive etc. I'm surprised how many theists when cornered in debate have argued that I am arguing against theism because I want to hurt them.

However alot of us are prepared to hear contrary evidence to many political belief's we hold (eg gun laws, drinking laws) believing that if we are won over by the arguments they must be compelling, or that a compromise can be reached. The problem with theism is there is no middle ground to find comrpomise.

 

[Th1sWasATriumph]

Not in mine, but perhaps this is a characteristic of Christian believers?

Not saying this to contradict or be contentious. Just sharing another perspective.

No problem, it's only in my experience after all. WolfAU summed it up well above this post - there's no middle ground. You may get people who profess to enjoy having their faith challenged and questions asked, but it has always ended the same way (for me) - in logical collapse and, eventually, silence. Because it's faith. Because arguments will make no difference. Because if you're doubting or think there could be other ways, you're not taking things on faith anymore - certainly not to the same extent.

 

[Th1sWasATriumph]

If theists cling to these they will not only resist conversion, but become very dogmatic, defensive etc. I'm surprised how many theists when cornered in debate have argued that I am arguing against theism because I want to hurt them.

However alot of us are prepared to hear contrary evidence to many political belief's we hold (eg gun laws, drinking laws) believing that if we are won over by the arguments they must be compelling, or that a compromise can be reached. The problem with theism is there is no middle ground to find comrpomise.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[Penguin_Factory]

I would have no problem if my girlfriend was religious, as long as she had no problem with my atheism. I'd be quite content to just never bring it up- it would be a non-issue.

 

[Mafiaaffe]

My girlfriend is a buddhist she belives in all sorts of stuff like rebirth,
people overcoming their humans existens etc.
Of course I hope she could become more reasonabe but its not that a big problem.