A religious girl or boyfriend...

[irmerk]

Like the thread by ajh, I would like to hear peoples opinions on maintaining relationships, but a serious one. Since this seems to be a secular, atheistic and mostly 'anti-religion,' I thought this would be interesting.

If you met or had known a great person - girl or guy - that you like just about everything about and could see a lot of potential in dating, but they were very religious, what would you do? Would you suck it up and work past it, ignore it, something else? Would you try and help him or her over the perceived speed bump? Would you not be willing to have a serious relationship with such a dogmatic and hypocritical belief system?

To give perspective on the views of the person, let us just take - oh, I know not - just your favorite YouTube Christian or something as an example of the person's beliefs.

So, how much does dogma, religion and related beliefs play a role in maintaining a serious relationship?

 

[Synystyr]

Lead by example. Allow it, if it isn't obstructive and established with intent to persuade you. It would be unbelievably ignorant to reject someone because they don't have your (un)belief system; that is exactly what most theists do, and exactly the reason I (for one) absolutely hate their cultural boundary bullshit.

 

[Canto]

Like I said in the chat last night to a kid asking about this same question, you really have to consider the future of the relationship more than you think. The question can not be "Am I able to ignore their religious views?" It has to be "If we have children together, am I ok with them being taught these views?"

 

[ImprobableJoe]

You can't ignore it, and you're doing the both of you a huge disservice by entering a relationship with someone you are planning on changing. I'd say that you might be able to be friends with a religious person, but you shouldn't marry one.

Synystyr, I think you mean well but you're also off-base IMO. Good relationships are in large part based on shared values. I wouldn't marry a fundamentalist, a Republican, or a Libertarian... I only associate with GOOD people! :lol:

Seriously, though... if you have fundamental differences with a person, a serious relationship is pretty much doomed from the start. I've been there.

 

[irmerk]

I think I agree with Joe mostly. I can see entering into a relationship with someone that is into science and logical thinking but is confused and still has not matched this up with opinions on religion. If they were any more of a lost cause, you should not enter in trying to change them.

The question can not be "Am I able to ignore their religious views?" It has to be "If we have children together, am I ok with them being taught these views?"

I like that. I would still have to consider the first question, though.

 

[Ozymandyus]

I think it is very dangerous to consider one aspect of someone's personality as primary to whether or not you should date them.

If you meet a girl that you really like, that is wonderful for you in every way, except she is pretty religious... you have to do the math and decide if you can deal with that. I know a couple, one of which is religious (though she has moved away from that in recent years) and one of which is vehemently agnostic. They make each other think about these things and they are a great couple.

It really depends on the person, the age (people continue to radically change their beliefs into their 20s in my experience), and how good of a match they are for you. If you have to fight with them every time the subject comes up, it probably won't work, but you can make a darn good relationship with people that have different belief systems in my experience. My wife goes to church occasionally, and it doesn't hurt our relationship at all.

Then again, if you have a fundamental hate for religious people, or just don't/can't respect them at all... you probably shouldn't. But it might be you being the close-minded and prejudiced one, which would be a shame.

 

[GoodKat]

I test people when I first meet them. I talk to them about religion, and find something indefensible that they believe, and challenge it. If I can get them to budge, then they're not bigoted and I can be friend with/date them, if not, then I avoid them. I don't have time to break a fundie, and they generally get very irate when I talk anyway.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I think it is very dangerous to consider one aspect of someone's personality as primary to whether or not you should date them.

If you meet a girl that you really like, that is wonderful for you in every way, except she is pretty religious... you have to do the math and decide if you can deal with that. I know a couple, one of which is religious (though she has moved away from that in recent years) and one of which is vehemently agnostic. They make each other think about these things and they are a great couple.

It really depends on the person, the age (people continue to radically change their beliefs into their 20s in my experience), and how good of a match they are for you. If you have to fight with them every time the subject comes up, it probably won't work, but you can make a darn good relationship with people that have different belief systems in my experience. My wife goes to church occasionally, and it doesn't hurt our relationship at all.

I think that you bring up something important, which is the level of religious belief involved. There's a big difference between an agnostic dating a vaguely religious person, and an atheist dating a fundie.

If you don't mind, I'll use your wife as an example, since you brought her up. She "goes to church occasionally," which points to a sort of middling connection to religion. Do you think it would work if she was the sort of person who goes to church twice a week? What if she spoke in tongues and tried to heal the kids with prayer instead of medicine?

It isn't just that she would behave in a different way. Don't you think that your wife would be a completely different person on a fundamental level if she behaved that way? A person who you would not be nearly as compatible with?

 

[ebbixx]

So, how much does dogma, religion and related beliefs play a role in maintaining a serious relationship?

Based on experience, I'd say a great deal. Even as someone raised in a very abusive, coercive religion that I eventually rejected, while I married someone whose beliefs seemed, when we met, to be compatible at the time, though coming from a very different background (Reform Judaism), my former partner's learned beliefs and values (and those I could not manage to entirely shake loose from my own ex-Mormon background) played -- I think -- a major role in our eventual breakup after 20 years together.

One of the tensions was in fact the rarely spoken expectation of my partner that I would eventually convert to Judaism. While I studied Judaism and found it intellectually fascinating, I couldn't ultimately "fake" a belief in something that was more a curiousity to me than something I could accept over any other invented belief system, and that eventually led to tensions. Also, there were unexamined feelings that I'd internalized, about the relative importance of that partnership that, even though I've not been a practicing Mormon since age 16, were still in the background of my expectations.

Mormons see marriage as eternal and something almost impossible to dissolve (regardless of human laws to the contrary), while Judaism views it as a strictly contractual relationship, dissolvable through a fairly neutral legalistic formula. So we never really saw the relationship in anything like the same terms.

Granted, my present view is materialistic in the sense that I doubt there is much of a meaningful afterlife, except perhaps at some quantum level, and that's so iffy that it's not worth speculating about. But I do see actions as having long half-lives and my upbringing no doubt influenced that on a level that is often hard to view entirely on a rational basis.

So yes, be very, very, very careful about choosing who you form serious bonds with and how compatible your core beliefs are with theirs -- determining in advance, if you can, where the pitfalls could be in those unmatched worldview, unless you're confident you can either persuade or compromise on those views.

Conversely, you might just keep your relationships shallow, time-limited and free of long-term obligations and save all parties considerable heartache. That would be my practical advice.

 

[Th1sWasATriumph]

My girlfriend was a Catholic, believed in life after death/purpose to the universe/God etc. I did not react well when I found out.

You could look at it two ways: I knocked away a lot of the comfort she had in believing that there's innate purpose to her life, or I enriched her life by destroying the lies she'd been raised into.

After a few months of badgering she's pretty much abandoned her old beliefs. But she was never hugely invested in them in the first place. I don't know, I did feel bad as I relentlessly burnt down her beliefs.

Go about it tactfully, as I pretty much failed to do, and it should all be fine.

 

[Ozymandyus]

I think that you bring up something important, which is the level of religious belief involved. There's a big difference between an agnostic dating a vaguely religious person, and an atheist dating a fundie.

If you don't mind, I'll use your wife as an example, since you brought her up. She "goes to church occasionally," which points to a sort of middling connection to religion. Do you think it would work if she was the sort of person who goes to church twice a week? What if she spoke in tongues and tried to heal the kids with prayer instead of medicine?

It isn't just that she would behave in a different way. Don't you think that your wife would be a completely different person on a fundamental level if she behaved that way? A person who you would not be nearly as compatible with?

Oh, I completely agree. I certainly doubt that such a relationship could work(atheist+fundie), which is why I was only responding to the OP's premise of 'If you met or had known a great person - girl or guy - that you like just about everything about and could see a lot of potential in dating, but they were very religious, what would you do?'. If such a person existed, they most certainly could not be a total fundie that has religion ruling every part of their lives. I could not 'like just about everything about a fundie'.. it wouldn't be because they were religious though, it would be because they are anti-scientific, unreasonable and unthinking. I could not possibly get along with such a person, whether they were religious or not.

If the person on the whole is someone you really like and get along with and they happen to be relatively religious... my experience is that they will change at least some of their religious ideas as they get older and even if they don't they are probably the kind of person that has a flexible and open understanding of their faith. My mother goes to church 5 times a week, and I still love her. She's reasonable about her belief despite her full and total faith, and certainly doesn't believe the bible on a fundamental level, questions church teachings, loves gay people, gives more to her community than anyone I know and such. You can be super religious and still reasonable.

 

[Gnomesmusher]

I'm currently in a relationship with a girl that I thought to be "the one" and strangely enough the topic of religion never really came up until recently. That's when arguments started cropping up. She's somewhat moderately religious and so I thought the beliefs couldn't be a big deal right? Wrong. Turns out she doesn't believe in evolution (and scientists in general) and she thinks my lack of belief of god will land me in hell when I die. It sort of puts a damper on the relationship when one thinks that other will spend eternity burning. She can't handle the thought of us being separate in the afterlife and me burning.

Who knows, maybe she'll change her views eventually but right now things are strained. Once again, religion has taken a dump on some aspect of my life. Gotta love it eh?

 

[FreakyName]

Would you suck it up and work past it, ignore it, something else? Would you try and help him or her over the perceived speed bump? Would you not be willing to have a serious relationship with such a dogmatic and hypocritical belief system?

If someone views another person's belief system as dogmatic and hypocritical then there is a good chance that you wont be able to have any sort of significant relationship with them. That's why an extreme atheist wouldn't be able to relate with a deeply religious person.

Of course, that isn't to say that an atheist and theist couldn't have a relationship but both people would need to have a fairly open and accepting view on religions and the supernatural. If they don't then one will always be working to "save" the other from ignorance/hell/ It'd be quite the sitcom.

My girlfriend was a Catholic, believed in life after death/purpose to the universe/God etc. I did not react well when I found out.

Now, if you're the type of person who has that kind of reaction to learning someone's beliefs then you're no better then an Islamic extremist in my books. Complete rejection of someone based on what they believe is a little silly. Now if that same person constantly pestered you to save your "soul" then I could see wanting to get rid of them.

Basically, I agree with Ozymandyus.

 

[Gnomesmusher]

Going through what I'm going through right now, I don't blame Triumph for not reacting well. Religion has that built in exclusion clause where non believers just can't be accepted.

 

[Netheralian]

Scary beliefs would kill it for me! But also what thier beleifs would make (or not allow) them to do. The crudest but probably most obvious would be the lack of premarital sex...

 

[Synystyr]

I made my comment under the pretext that you weren't courting a fundamentalist Catholic. You don't court people who detest your beliefs in the first place, its dishonest. My point is that you don't close the door for dialog if it is still open - that is what the culture Nazis do, I know first hand, Islamic culture pretty much gets you disowned for violating it.

 

[Th1sWasATriumph]

Now, if you're the type of person who has that kind of reaction to learning someone's beliefs then you're no better then an Islamic extremist in my books. Complete rejection of someone based on what they believe is a little silly

Well, the foolish overreaction was very short-lived, and we're still together many months later. And an Islamic extremist wouldn't use reason to argue his claim.

 

[Th1sWasATriumph]

I
Who knows, maybe she'll change her views eventually but right now things are strained. Once again, religion has taken a dump on some aspect of my life. Gotta love it eh?

Sucks, dude. Does reasoned debate help? It worked for me, but my gf wasn't deeply invested in the first place (and believes in evolution and has a love of space and other awesome things.)

 

[Gnomesmusher]

Sucks, dude. Does reasoned debate help? It worked for me, but my gf wasn't deeply invested in the first place (and believes in evolution and has a love of space and other awesome things.)

The reasoned debates between us both hurt and helped. The problem is that she has some of the Creationist mindset that we often see displayed. So, I guess my disdain (for the belief but not her) slips out despite my best efforts and I get accused of being an intellectual snob and intolerant (because I don't accept the bible as proof). Still, I did get her to admit that some things she believed in didn't make sense.

Anyway, your experience has given me some hope that things could work out. Thanks.

 

[RestrictedAccess]

So, how much does dogma, religion and related beliefs play a role in maintaining a serious relationship?

My husband is a Christian. He's pretty liberal in his beliefs - he accepts evolution and rejects a lot of the bigoted ways of fundamentalism. He does believe in the after life, and he believes that at one point the universe was created by his God. As an atheist who believes firmly in the right of people to believe as they do, I have no problem with his beliefs and wouldn't dream of changing them.

I think I would have drawn the line at a religious person who was anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-evolution, and harbored any form of dislike towards different (harmless) beliefs. I couldn't live the rest of my life with someone who thought like that (nor would I find myself attracted to them for very long).