Zeitgeist

[ImprobableJoe]

Belphegor, keep reading the thread. We know all about the Venus Project, its goals, and all that. We just think that joining Peter Joseph's pathetic little cult isn't actually going to achieve ANYTHING, and we go into pretty good detail as to why.

I'm sure I asked the question before, but what has the Venus Project EVER DONE?

 

[stratos]

I care not for these ludicrous ideas and movements or whatever the heck people want to call it, but the below quote from quite a few posts back was just too ignorant not to respond too.

The problems we face today are distribution problems. Management of the resources. We now are realizing that we have the technology to create such abundance in resources that they can basically become "worthless" in the monetary system. Just like air for instance. We have air everywhere and thus nobody can sell it. Or land/earth. You can go and dig up land wherever you want and keep it. Try to sell it, nobody wants it.

Selling air:
bars selling air - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_bar
cans of air for sale - http://www.amazon.com/Stoner-94203-GUST-Easy-Duster/dp/B0002KKIUA/ref=pd_sim_e_6
more air for sale - http://homerepair.about.com/od/toolsmaterialsyouneed/ss/airtank.htm

selling dirt:
sand - http://www.sandsales.com/
clay - http://www.castlecolours.co.uk/English/introduction.htm
marble - http://www.alibaba.com/member/pk102212151.html

This should have been obvious to anyone. If it exists, then it can be sold. (heck, even if something doesn't exist you can sell it)

 

[Belphegor]

For the Venus Project to work you have to eliminate the profit motive(...)

so true, but that is the goal of the project, first step is get rid of the monetary system, as long as there is a monetary system there will allways be a profit motive, and therefore competition and corruption.

As for ImprobableJoe, i have read all the thread (the part about the debate on twin towers and other stuff less relevant was painfull but i had read it before posting. but you managed to make a post pushing my issues asside without aswering any. I'm not asking you to join the Zeigeist movement and follow P.Joseph around. I asked you simple questions.

(this is now the 3rd post, and the 3rd time i ask this, are you afraid to answer it?)

- Do you agree (or desagree) with the aplication of the scientific method for social concern?
- Do you think we can ever get free of this social system without leaving the monetary system and start living as one planet?
- Do you agree with the 2 natural laws?
1- Every human needs adequate nutrition, clean air and clean water and therefore must respect the symbiotic environmental processes inherent
2-The only constant is change and human understandings are always in transition

do you disagree with this?
Ask not what has the venus project done so far, it's an idea, on its own it wont do anything, it's we, the people who can do anything. Ask yourself what do you wanna do?

Dont gimme any crap about the conspiracies, im talking about the social system, about where humanity is heading, or where it could head instead. Do you agree with our current value system? profit, competition, "free enterprise" (capitalism), greed, corruption... do you wanna stick with it?

ill leave you with another oldie (i recomend the whole doc 46min, but here's a shorter verion 7min, its from Dawkins 1987 and its called "nice guys finish first")

 

[ImprobableJoe]

As for ImprobableJoe, i have read all the thread (the part about the debate on twin towers and other stuff less relevant was painfull but i had read it before posting. but you managed to make a post pushing my issues asside without aswering any. I'm not asking you to join the Zeigeist movement and follow P.Joseph around. I asked you simple questions.

This one is my bad... I mistook this thread for another one.

Read this thread, all your answers are there.

BTW, no one is afraid of your questions or your ideas ripped off from Star Trek. Really, children... none of this shit is new, profound, or useful for anything besides letting people feel good about themselves without actually doing a goddamned thing.

 

[IBSpify]

so true, but that is the goal of the project, first step is get rid of the monetary system

and what exactly is the plan to do that? If you don't have a plan that could conceivably work then everyone here is right to say that the Venus Project is all talk and no substance

I'll answer your questions as well and I'm thinking you will get the same answers from just about everybody here:

- Do you agree (or desagree) with the aplication of the scientific method for social concern?

Agree

Do you think we can ever get free of this social system without leaving the monetary system and start living as one planet?

I love how you talk about leaving the monetary system like it's as simple and standing on a stages and telling everybody that we're going to get rid of money and have everybody agree with you. It's not that simple and this is where the Venus Project falls apart. The Venus project surmises that people are generally good and that it's money that corrupts them and without money people would do things out of the goodness of their hearts, well I'm sorry but the world doesn't work that way, people are generally assholes and look out for number 1, not look out for everybody.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I love how you talk about leaving the monetary system like it's as simple and standing on a stages and telling everybody that we're going to get rid of money and have everybody agree with you. It's not that simple and this is where the Venus Project falls apart. The Venus project surmises that people are generally good and that it's money that corrupts them and without money people would do things out of the goodness of their hearts, well I'm sorry but the world doesn't work that way, people are generally assholes and look out for number 1, not look out for everybody.

The Venus Project is just like any other religious-style thinking: there's where we are now, where they want to go... and in the middle, absolutely nothing.

Here's the Venus Project:

A. Life isn't perfect.
B. We'll form a little club and make some movies whining about the fact that life isn't perfect, and we'll lie about history, economics, and 9-11.
C. The word will spread on the Internet.
D. A MIRACLE HAPPENS!
E. Life becomes perfect!

 

[TheFearmonger]

On the zeitgeist thing that paridigm provided... If what that thesis is true, then zeit's main thing is opposing all aspects of current society. How is THAT productive?

 

[ImprobableJoe]

On the zeitgeist thing that paridigm provided... If what that thesis is true, then zeit's main thing is opposing all aspects of current society. How is THAT productive?

It lets stupid people with nothing to contribute feel like smart people who are contributing?

 

[Belphegor]

On the zeitgeist thing that paridigm provided... If what that thesis is true, then zeit's main thing is opposing all aspects of current society. How is THAT productive?

kinda... it's a bit of a strech, but i'll go along in that idea just to add something: I don't think that just because something is currently in use, it's automatically correct, so if we can see it's wrong and not acting on in it's just coward.

disclaimer: english is not my first language, and these are my ideas, not facts.

Once again i found out i had not read a huge part of the discussion because i was randomly checking out interesting threads of the forum when i stumbled into this one, and i didnt knew there was another about the venus project, and i went and read it. Thks ImprobableJoe for poiting it out. Kinda sad the discussion there in my point of view, it's like a cockfight, some politeness, some name calling... but nobody presents arguments (neither part...) and both with the us vs them mentality... so sad, why?!?! (this is my point, it's not a "us vs them", it really is not)

I dont know if it makes any since discussin in this thread or switch to the venus project thread, since this one is about the 9/11-ish content in the movies witch i find not relevant, it was supposed to raise awareness but has turn into conspiracy crap (could have been bad research from the author, i don't care, not relevant for me, i just like the final idea, the venus project idea).

(yeah all this crap just to get to my point, here it is)

Stop with us vs them mentality, that is so american (sorry to offend you, but it is). Try to think like this, hear an idea, see what you like and what you don't like, mix it up, get the good, change the bad... learn, open your mind, test it out, spam forums lol

i think slowly, very slowly, more and more ppl will want to see application of the scientific method in social engineering, and to see human right respected world wide, and one day maybe, to see the world as one symbiotic organism, instead of a society only working as a group to the point where they don't stab the next guy on the back because the guy behind you would then catch you off guard and take you out for his own gain aswell.

I think gradually, intelligent ppl will slowly gravitate to the ideas proposed in the venus project (by then u'll hate the name and will only agreed to the same with a new face...).
The fact that the idea sounds so alien today shouldn't get ppl on the defensive, analise it, not the movie.... read the books, catch the main point, not the conspiracies... the cybernated government (Social Cybernation) is not a communism, it's not anarchy, i see so many uninformed claims... it's kinda scary name, yeah it bring out out fear of the "Skynet" from the terminator movie lol... learn what it is, i'll make a short summary:

it's a computer having all the laws in there, and everyone has like this constant internect connection (no stupid implant ideas... think PC/cellphone), and you see a law (as time goes by they will be more like technical problems) and you think it's wrong, you suggest a change, present your facts, make your theory, the whole society get's prompted (obviously only those who care about that particular subject will respond - peer review you may call it, when every person doest have a labor job so everyone is either an artist, engineer or a scientist / scholar), if the change is approved, it's instantly applied until someone else comes up with a better theory.
True democracy, you don't elect ppl to choose for you, you interact directly and get reviewed by the whole world. Now is that the the perfect government? probably, or probably not, it's just a hell lot better than what we have, but feel free to suggest improvements

i'm ranting quite extensively (sorry, not sleepy) so i'll leave you with one of my favorite quotes from the Carl Sagan's fiction book, Contact, 1985
This is Ellie questioning the alien:

"I want to know what you think of us," she said shortly, "what you really think."
He did not hesitate for a moment. "All right. I think it's amazing that you've done as well as you have. You've got hardly any theory of social organization, astonishingly backward economic systems, no grasp of the machinery of historical prediction, and very little knowledge about yourselves. Considering how fast your world is changing, it's amazing you haven't blown yourselves to bits by now. That's why we don't want to write you off just yet. You humans have a certain talent for adaptability, at least in the short term."
"That's the issue, isn't it?"
"That's one issue. You can see that, after a while, the civilizations with only short term perspectives just aren't around. They work out their destinies also."

 

[Finger]

Why would accusing someone of thinking like an American be offensive?

In my experience, good ideas that have to rely on lies are not good ideas. I have no respect or tolerance for people who lie to promote their "truth". If that's "us and them mentality", then so be it. I would side with reality over fantasy any day.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Why would accusing someone of thinking like an American be offensive?

In my experience, good ideas that have to rely on lies are not good ideas. I have no respect or tolerance for people who lie to promote their "truth". If that's "us and them mentality", then so be it. I would side with reality over fantasy any day.

Also, good ideas don't have to rely on people being "open minded" or changing their way of thinking away from rationality and logic. Some ideas are just bad ideas. Sometimes people are just flat-out wrong, and sometimes they are lying.

The folks who made Zeitgeist are liars, and where they are not intentionally lying they are often stupidly wrong. I'm perfectly willing to adopt an "us vs them" mentality when the "us" is people who are rational and honest, and the "them" side of the equation is a bunch of paranoid liars.

 

[Belphegor]

(...) good ideas that have to rely on lies are not good ideas. I have no respect or tolerance for people who lie to promote their "truth"(...)

Also, good ideas don't have to rely on people being "open minded" or changing their way of thinking away from rationality and logic. Some ideas are just bad ideas. Sometimes people are just flat-out wrong, and sometimes they are lying.

The folks who made Zeitgeist are liars, and where they are not intentionally lying they are often stupidly wrong. I'm perfectly willing to adopt an "us vs them" mentality when the "us" is people who are rational and honest, and the "them" side of the equation is a bunch of paranoid liars.

I see a valid point there, if they are liyng we should have little tolerance for the lie itslef (not so sure about direction those feeling to the person itself), but so far i have nor seen any evidence that it is a lie, i see ppl claiming it is, oh boy thay i see alot in this forum, but evidence no, so it makes a double standard doesn't it? You claim and claim it's a lie, i dont believe it is until i see some evidence pointing that direction. Just wanted to get that small point out.

One other thing i would like to say is i think ppl can come up with different ideas, and they could be better, but i believe not doing anything is not a valid solution. Money is hard to get rid of, going back to IBSpify

For the Venus Project to work you have to eliminate the profit motive, and quite frankly that will be nearly impossible to do if not entirely impossible.(...)

so i'm going to let you with 2 huge (boring? amazingly i didnt found them boring and im not into economics nor math)

What i want to suggest is, our money system is going to collapse on it's own soon because exponential growth is unsustainable. Start your thinking from there, and you see we need a solution, sitting back and letting it roll wont do

doc1 is Albert A. Bartlett - Arithmetic, Population and Energy (1969)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9znsuCphHUU&feature=PlayList&p=90E4502D6A92A18E&index=0&playnext=1

doc2 is Chris Martenson's Crash course (2009)
http://www.chrismartenson.com/crashcourse/chapter-1-three-beliefs

pls check em out, they have absolutely nothing to do with zeitgeist, at all, so they wont bite, check em out

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I see a valid point there, if they are liyng we should have little tolerance for the lie itslef (not so sure about direction those feeling to the person itself), but so far i have nor seen any evidence that it is a lie, i see ppl claiming it is, oh boy thay i see alot in this forum, but evidence no, so it makes a double standard doesn't it? You claim and claim it's a lie, i dont believe it is until i see some evidence pointing that direction. Just wanted to get that small point out.

...and I think we can fairly dismiss you at this point. Since you have seen this thread and the other, and ignored all the evidence or are lying about having read the threads, there's absolutely no reason to continue. How many times can you and people like you pretend that there's no evidence, before we just call you a bunch of fucking liars and ignore you?

 

[Belphegor]

...and you do that again, i don't care about debunked conspiracies and twin towers, the fundamental ideas have nothing to do with towers. You dodge my point and attack me ad hominem...
it's a suggestion for a new social system that i found interesting, i do not care about twin tower hypes

ok i'll play the dumb card, pls link me the evidences (not talking about the videos, talking about the ideas i'm talking about, witch at this point i doubt you even know what it is)

...and responding in less than a minute says you didnt even read my post, much less the docs i sent to show my point

 

[Finger]

...and you do that again, i don't care about debunked conspiracies and twin towers, the fundamental ideas have nothing to do with towers.

Oh but they do. The core tenet of the Venus Project is that society is flawed. That the system itself is rotted to the core and the only way to fix it is to throw it right out and start over. This is precisely why the 9/11 conspiracy is in Zeitgeist at all. In order to convince you of their ideology, they must convince you that the government is evil and out to get you, so they LIE in order to do it. That alone shows you what their "fundamental ideas" are really like.

ok i'll play the dumb card, pls link me the evidences (not talking about the videos, talking about the ideas i'm talking about, witch at this point i doubt you even know what it is)

Which ideas are these? Since you're so keen on cherry picking ideas from Zeitgeist, you should at least tell us which ones you like so we don't attack the ones you don't like. You're like a Christian who gets mad when people talk about the old testament.

...and responding in less than a minute says you didnt even read my post, much less the docs i sent to show my point

Joe responded in 11 minutes. Look at the timestamp.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

...and you do that again, i don't care about debunked conspiracies and twin towers, the fundamental ideas have nothing to do with towers. You dodge my point and attack me ad hominem...
it's a suggestion for a new social system that i found interesting, i do not care about twin tower hypes

ok i'll play the dumb card, pls link me the evidences (not talking about the videos, talking about the ideas i'm talking about, witch at this point i doubt you even know what it is)

...and responding in less than a minute says you didnt even read my post, much less the docs i sent to show my point

So, you don't understand the difference between this thread and the "Venus Project" nonsense. We have a thread that you claim you saw, that deals with that stupidity pretty handily. Why should we repeat ourselves for you, when you insist on ignoring and actually lying about us, and I guess me specifically.

I guess we need to start over and explain it all to you personally, and then to the next person too lazy to read what has already been posted and too ignorant to work Teh Google.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Oh but they do. The core tenet of the Venus Project is that society is flawed. That the system itself is rotted to the core and the only way to fix it is to throw it right out and start over. This is precisely why the 9/11 conspiracy is in Zeitgeist at all. In order to convince you of their ideology, they must convince you that the government is evil and out to get you, so they LIE in order to do it. That alone shows you what their "fundamental ideas" are really like.

I'll ask you, because you are relatively sensible and not a loony. :lol:

Did we not already go over this stuff is several other threads, including the Venus Project thread I linked to earlier? Didn't we spell out our objections pretty clearly?

Here, let me spell it out and you tell me if I missed anything:

• The Zeitgeist Movement/Venus Project drew attention to their worldview by lying about the history of religion, the 9/11 attacks, and the monetary/tax system.
• These same people are not a "movement" in that they have no real plan to change things at all, nor do they have any record of really doing anything besides spreading lies.
• Utopian non-movements based on destroying the entire system and rebuilding it are in violation of human nature and common sense.

Is there anything else?

 

[Finger]

Apart from those, Belphegor is also cherry picking the aspects of the Venus Project he agrees with while ignoring all the stuff he seemingly doesn't and is pleading with us all to do the same. The ends apparently justify the means for him, since the core recruiting device for the Venus Project is 9/11 and the other debunked conspiracy theories promoted in Zeitgeist.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Apart from those, Belphegor is also cherry picking the aspects of the Venus Project he agrees with while ignoring all the stuff he seemingly doesn't and is pleading with us all to do the same. The ends apparently justify the means for him, since the core recruiting device for the Venus Project is 9/11 and the other debunked conspiracy theories promoted in Zeitgeist.

Good point. Also, I would have to add that whatever benefits these ideas have could be had without the cult-like behavior and attitudes. So my list should read more like this:

• The Zeitgeist Movement/Venus Project drew attention to their worldview by lying about the history of religion, the 9/11 attacks, and the monetary/tax system.
• These same people are not a "movement" in that they have no real plan to change things at all, nor do they have any record of really doing anything besides spreading lies.
• Utopian non-movements based on destroying the entire system and rebuilding it are in violation of human nature and common sense.
• Followers will ignore the negatives and cherry pick the positives,
• There is no benefit to joining one of these groups for the cherry picked positives, when they can be had(if they are even possible) without joining a Utopian cult.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Also, I wonder how many hours it will be before another "new" member with less than 10 posts joins the thread and pretends that the discussion we're having right now never really happened at all?