Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her think.

[JustBusiness17]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

What's problematic is when she attacks mine.

Sounds like you're frustrated over the double standard more than anything.

 

[Gnug215]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

Hi anon1986sing,

Thanks for the response. And yes, I did ask a bit too many questions, sorry, but I was interested in your situation.

I'm glad to hear that things aren't as bad as most of us initially thought. But I'll let my suggestions from my previous post stand, as I think they're still relevant.

And I'll agree with anon about people going off on tangents.
It's not very polite or respectful, really.

Get with the program, people!

 

[Asrahn]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

Ah, my son! Know that the Pirates watch over ye, and that FSM no doubt will extend his forgiving appendage towards thee! :3

As for the bush thing, wouldn't it be considered paying homage to nature, seeing urine can be considered fertilization? Does animals as well have to apologize for doing their thing, or is mankind exclusive in not being allowed to take a crap in the forest?

I'm sorry, I believe my curiosity is getting the better of me. It's good to hear that things aren't as dire as they first seemed!

 

[MRaverz]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

Communication makes relationships amazing, if you've got a problem - talking almost always helps.

Not in some douchey 'we need to talk' kinda way, but in a more 'express how you feel' kind of way. Yet that sounds douchey too. I think that if you were to be more curious as to her beliefs and why she believes them, things with you and your wife will be amazing. Also, encourage her to find out more about you too.

You're in a relationship together, half the fun is discovering more about that person. In fact, I'd say it's most of the fun. If you assume too much and communicate too little, it stop being fun and you have petty arguments.

So, to sum up with a cliché - talk more. Get inside that brain of hers. ;D


On the 'help me make her think' point; curiosity leads to questions, questions to curiosity. Talking leads to thinking, thinking leads to talking.

 

[JustBusiness17]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

I think that if you were to be more curious as to her beliefs and why she believes them, things with you and your wife will be amazing. Also, encourage her to find out more about you too.

Why didn't I think of that... You guys could alternate events between Wicca ceremonies and secular humanist meetings or something of the like. Could be fun...

2 movies to inspire you:
-Yes Man for obvious reasons
-Role Models because the ending was epic, even for people who find LARP ridiculous.

 

[borrofburi]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

Not in some douchey 'we need to talk' kinda way, but in a more 'express how you feel' kind of way. Yet that sounds douchey too. I think that if you were to be more curious as to her beliefs and why she believes them, things with you and your wife will be amazing. Also, encourage her to find out more about you too.

This seems a bit naive. Though of course the other alternative is that they're simply doomed not to get along. Personally, I've had that problem, with family members, where I get lovely statements about how only fools say there is no god and they are all evil and don't do any good. But it is quite obvious that my relationship with them is essentially doomed. Sometimes people are bigots, and there's nothing you can reasonably do. E.g., imagine having one of the westboro baptist church members as an aunt, or a mother, or a cousin, or a sister: do you think there's *anything* you could do where they wouldn't hate you as much? I don't think so.

To OP: I don't have any solutions. To me it seems like your wife is engaging in typical religious behavior, including the standard where you are supposed to abide by all the rules of her religion, even if you don't believe them or agree with them, and where non-belief itself is evil or wrong or morally inferior making you a morally inferior person. She also strikes me as someone who thinks science is just another belief system with no more merit than any other. Honestly I worry that there is no "solution", especially since it seems like she explicitly avoids communication. The one thing I saw in this thread that I think is valuable: you can't control her, you want something to change in the relationship you have to do it yourself, put 100% of the effort in until such a time as she decides to help out, the burden is entirely on you.

But, I have a migraine and am on as much over-the-counter pain meds as a medical professional allows before strictly forbidding any more, so what do I know? Nothing, that's what.

 

[Demojen]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

My advice.

Get a divorce or roll with the punches. Weigh the pros and cons.

If you love her, letting her go should better define your relationship.
If it doesn't, you may want to step back and look at what brought you together to begin with. If you can not tolerate her beliefs and she can not tolerate your indifference to them, then you're only prolonging the inevitable "big fight" when it all boils over.

You can still be friends after you say "I don't"

 

[MRaverz]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

Not in some douchey 'we need to talk' kinda way, but in a more 'express how you feel' kind of way. Yet that sounds douchey too. I think that if you were to be more curious as to her beliefs and why she believes them, things with you and your wife will be amazing. Also, encourage her to find out more about you too.

This seems a bit naive. Though of course the other alternative is that they're simply doomed not to get along. Personally, I've had that problem, with family members, where I get lovely statements about how only fools say there is no god and they are all evil and don't do any good. But it is quite obvious that my relationship with them is essentially doomed. Sometimes people are bigots, and there's nothing you can reasonably do. E.g., imagine having one of the westboro baptist church members as an aunt, or a mother, or a cousin, or a sister: do you think there's *anything* you could do where they wouldn't hate you as much? I don't think so.

Naive? Pish

Just because someone is a bigot, it doesn't mean that they will stay a bigot. The only decent way of stopping someone from being bigoted is to get them thinking, the only way to get them thinking is to be curious about what they think because this in itself will cause them to think about their answers when you honestly ask questions without giving the impression of trying to prove them wrong.

Words are powerful things. ;D

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

Digression!
It's because it's formatted from Gaelic.
xD
It's basically taken from a work by Crowley, then translated and reduced into a Gaelic tone when written up formally by Gerald Gardener.
Crowley: "Do what thou will" is the whole of the Law. ... Love is the Law. Love under Will.
Gardener: An ye harm none, do as ye wilt.
Which if translated from Gaelic, you have:
If you harm none, do as you wish.

Wizards and Witches like to place things in older languages that are less used for 3 things: Secrecy, Mystery and Connection with your Work. All of which have their uses.

---------------------------------------------------

Back on Track!

Like I said, it seems as if she's having other things than the actual problem you're seeing - it's called displacement for a reason, you know!
Just try to find out what's going on. Relax and just TALK for once. Maybe you should get her into a coven and do a few rituals with her...
When Beltane rolls around, ask her about the Great Rite. (You're going to have no objection to it - trust me! ^^)

This is my only advice I can rend you for now. I'm not personally aquaintanced with the situation, and therefore cannot make an accurate assessment of what's going on. -_-

)O( Blessed Be )O(

 

[FaithlessThinker]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

JustBusiness17, nice cartoons. Yup, double standard.

Gnug215, I'm glad you realize that this is not a serious problem that I have to be admitted to a psychiatric ward (or admit my wife to it). It's a rather minor problem that crops up in our otherwise perfect relationship (i know, there's no such thing as perfect). I wish everyone else here would realize that too. Everyone like...

Demojen, you're too quick to conclude there's no solution except either a divorce or "bearing the punches." If you had read all my replies you'd understand that I'm talking about a rather minor problem. Divorce is not the one-size-fits-all solution for problems in a marriage. And "bearing the punches" is not, either. Real marriages work when partners work out their differences out and reach a compromise. It's give and take. I'm guessing either you're single or you're ex-married (a lot of times?).

Asrahn, Yes, I definitely need the guidance of His Pirates, and His noodly appendages. Sometimes I can feel His noodly appendage on my head, and I get reminded of how we're kept on earth from floating into the sky (scientists mistake it to be "gravity").

Lol I almost thought "George Bush" when you said the bush thing. Good questions. Yea, why do humans alone have to "ask permission" when a dog can happily take his leak by lifting his hind-leg and pointing his organ onto the root of the tree? Maybe he asks permission in "dog-speak", could be why he sniffs around before he pees. Maybe it's one of FSM's tricks to mock human intelligence.

MRaverz, I very much agree with your answer. Communication is the key to a successful relationship. Problem occurs when one party shuts their ears to what the other has to say. And yes, words are powerful things.

JustBusiness17, But, it doesn't mean I'm going to do rituals with her! That's as ridiculous as the "ask permission to the bush" thing. Why should I waste my time doing something I don't believe in? Even if a Christian friend asks me to come to church, I'd politely decline, regardless of wanting to build friendship with him. Reason is, he's genuine if he can have the friendship with me regardless of my church attendance. Nice movies, I'll try to pick them up. PS: I don't go to "secular humanist meetings" or such.

)O( Hytegia )O(, keeping in sync with my own request, I will not extend the tangent you attempted to create. As for your "back on track" you continue to bully me as you had done before. You didn't say this directly but I know what you're thinking. It's what every religious would think of their own: "Oh we the religious have no problem. The problem is yours. You must accept whatever we believe, and when we push it down your throat, you must swallow it willingly without any question." As I said before, the problem is when she attacks my beliefs (or lack of them). Not the other way around.

And I know what the Great Rite is. Just because it's sexual doesn't mean I'll take part. I'm not that naive. It's still a religious ritual, and I don't believe in the religion it belongs to. I guess she got attracted to Wicca because she's quite sexual in nature, and apparently Wicca is a sexual religion (eventhough some would argue sex is only done symbolically or between married partners, which is not always true). She even calls herself a sexual vamp.

This is making an interesting discussion.

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

)O( Hytegia )O(, keeping in sync with my own request, I will not extend the tangent you attempted to create. As for your "back on track" you continue to bully me as you had done before. You didn't say this directly but I know what you're thinking. It's what every religious would think of their own: "Oh we the religious have no problem. The problem is yours. You must accept whatever we believe, and when we push it down your throat, you must swallow it willingly without any question." As I said before, the problem is when she attacks my beliefs (or lack of them). Not the other way around.

And I know what the Great Rite is. Just because it's sexual doesn't mean I'll take part. I'm not that naive. It's still a religious ritual, and I don't believe in the religion it belongs to. I guess she got attracted to Wicca because she's quite sexual in nature, and apparently Wicca is a sexual religion (eventhough some would argue sex is only done symbolically or between married partners, which is not always true). She even calls herself a sexual vamp.

This is making an interesting discussion.

I fail to see how I've "bullied you" :|
The tangent at the beginning was just to answer your minor inquiry into why it's an offset form of English for some reason - I, in humor and the sake of knowledge, seperated it from my statement and adequately titled it "Digression" (to go off topic for a second to ramble).

Secondly, you're quite wrong.
I'm not trying to bully you at all, and if this is the mindset you've set with simply me giving minor advice (such as talking to her and other non-religious/acceptance advice) I can begin to see where you're rubbing raw. I know exactly what you said, and my answer was that of:
"You love her for some reason - she's possibly doing this because she's displacing pent-up stress and emotions onto that subject." (Talk to her, man!)

But if such advice is considered bullying, along with branching-out ideals of toleration of something (if you don't believe in it, should it really hurt little more than your pride to go visit a ritual with her? -_- ) or just getting her hooked up with a coven to give her an outlet for her intrests... All of which I have described earlier in my posts.
I hardly see how any of this counts as bullying - and for you to claim as much would seem that you're trying to have some kind of victim complex here. I'm not going to go into further detail untill the rest of the thread if my hypothesis may be tested posative.

 

[Squagnut]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

Hi, anon1986sing.

I'm an atheist and I was in a relationship with a, well, she didn't call herself Wiccan, I think it was more Pagan. It seemed to me to be a hotch-potch cherry-picked belief system with an answer for absolutely eveything. Whatever it was, I was wrong about just about everything. It seems your wife is a little less like that, but I'm glad I didn't marry my ex-g/f. Some of what I say here may in fact be residual angst from that relationship.

The "asking permission" thing rings true to my experience. I had to ask permission to do anything, even going to visit my own friends - and I mean, ask her permission. I know that's not what your wife meant, and I find that attitude of hers to be ridiculous. Is anyone going to say you can't relieve yourself in the bushes? Does the bear ask permission before shitting in the woods? It's patently absurd to do this. What's the point of asking permission from something that has no power to stop you, that has no ability to communicate a lack of consent? Treat nature and all living things - and quite a few non-living things - with respect, yes, but we are living life, not role-playing. We are part of nature, not apart from it, and it seems to me she's as bad as any Christian who expects you to dress up and go to church on a Sunday so you can apologise for being human.

Essentially, she's playing a game. If she were secure in her beliefs then she'd be quite happy about you. She is trying to make you feel guilty, and you, quite rightly, don't want to do the same to her. What you have to get across to her is that you feel much the same way about nature as she does (if you didn't, you wouldn't be attracted to her), but you express it in a different way. Do you know the old Zen story of The Finger and the Moon? Briefly: **There was a monk who became the Master of a Buddhist sect, let's call him Mike. A novice came and asked Mike for help in interpreting a certain passage of scripture. Mike said that he didn't know the passage in question bcause he couldn't read. The novice asked Mike how he could possibly be a Master if he couldn't read scripture. They were outside and the moon was up. Mike replied, "You see the moon?" He pointed one finger at it. "Think of the moon as the truth, and my finger as scripture. Many fingers can point at the moon, all different, but my finger is not the moon any more than scripture is the truth. And we can see the moon without any fingers pointing at it". **

Does that help?

 

[Gnug215]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

JustBusiness17, nice cartoons. Yup, double standard.

Gnug215, I'm glad you realize that this is not a serious problem that I have to be admitted to a psychiatric ward (or admit my wife to it). It's a rather minor problem that crops up in our otherwise perfect relationship (i know, there's no such thing as perfect). I wish everyone else here would realize that too. Everyone like...

[...]

I'm sorry I jumped to conclusions, but to my defence, and the defence of others in this thread, I did get the impression from the initial post that things were quite bad.

However, in your defence, reading the initial post again, it doesn't seem as bad as I intially thought, hehe.

That said, it does seem like you guys have a problem in the relationship that needs to be dealt with - if anything, then agree to agree to disagree about it.

And now that I read the post again, I see that it seems most people have missed the main point of your post, which is the question of you being able to question her beliefs, and "Help me make her think".

To that end, I'd say that if you want to question her beliefs, perhaps you need to make clear, both to her and yourself, what your position is. Being a skeptic is something of a vapid concept if you don't define it to yourself. Otherwise all it amounts to is just: "I'm skeptical of your beliefs". Do you understand what I'm getting at here?

This why I suggested doing some reading (Sagan and then like), if you haven't already done that, and then, if the conversation arises or you decide to take confrontation with her, then you can perhaps spend some time explaining where you're coming from, and not so much on just taking the critical approach to her position.
Skepticism can be much more than just a "negative" attitude to things, and it's a state of mind that can take ages to learn. As an ex-Christian, I can tell you that it took me years to learn, and my mind still sometimes tempts me to assume many things on face value instead of thinking critically and demanding evidence before I come to a conclusion.
It isn't just about science, empiricism and such, but it's also about psychology, understanding emotions and the mechanism our minds apply to be able to function in this world.

There's a lot to it, and convincing someone like your wife could take years, if she's even susceptible to it. Thus I suggest that your goal not be that you convince her, but that you both in your relationship engage in a process together where you make her understand you better - and you have to accept her attempts to make you understand her.

 

[JustBusiness17]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

JustBusiness17, But, it doesn't mean I'm going to do rituals with her! That's as ridiculous as the "ask permission to the bush" thing. Why should I waste my time doing something I don't believe in? Even if a Christian friend asks me to come to church, I'd politely decline, regardless of wanting to build friendship with him. Reason is, he's genuine if he can have the friendship with me regardless of my church attendance. Nice movies, I'll try to pick them up. PS: I don't go to "secular humanist meetings" or such.

Do fathers not partake in tea parties with the daughters they love? Sometimes you have to suspend reality for the bonding power of ritual...

 

[FaithlessThinker]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

Before I go on, I have to make some...

CLARIFICATIONS:

• The gist of my original post (and subsequent replies as well): How do I make her think? It is akin to how a Math teacher should make his students think how to solve a Math problem. It is not akin to convincing her of what I think is right. It is also not akin to criticizing her religious beliefs (on the contrary to what many of you think).
• The "pee in the bushes" incident is not something major. It's just one out of many incidents. Before it happens, I want to prevent this topic from bending towards discussing this single incident.
• And for those who had interpreted her "asking permission" wrongly, she did not mean I should ask permission to the soil, to the bush (plants), to the air, to her, to myself, to Mother Earth or to any such entity. She meant I should ask permission to invisible supernatural beings that are in and around the area, such as fairies, gypsies and the like.
• We do not have religious discussions any day for the sake of arguing on each others' belief systems. We rarely ever talk about each others' religion (or irreligion). The reason is because we are accepting each other no matter what beliefs each of us have, and we don't have to explain to each other what we believe. She does not create religious discussions or arguments to vent out her anger, frustration or such. I know because she vents them out as they are, without the use of a middleman such as a religious discussion.

Hoping things are now clarified, let me go on.

Squagnut, yea that would really suck if you had to ask your wife's permission for everything you want to do. It's as though she's controlling you. As though she's the master (mistress) and you're the slave. Thankfully there's no such thing between us (my wife and me). In fact she insists on not asking her permission even to take a bite from her plate of food! (Clarification: when we go out, we usually buy different food items, so we taste each others' food.)

I agree with much of your reply. I have respect for nature, as in, the tangible nature that we know exists around us. I don't feign respect for an entity called "Mother Nature" (reminds me of Gaia in Captain Planet), because I don't believe in such an entity. Anyway, please do relate to the clarifications above. And nice Zen story.

Gnug215, your reply is a pack of diamonds! Seriously. I have never heard such clear-cut explanation for skepticism from anywhere else. Hope you don't mind, but I wish to use your definitions in future, both for my own learning and for sharing with others.

JustBusiness17, what's a tea party? Is that a religious ritual? I googled it up and most of the results have to do with politics.

 

[JustBusiness17]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

The gist of my original post (and subsequent replies as well): How do I make her think? It is akin to how a Math teacher should make his students think how to solve a Math problem. It is not akin to convincing her of what I think is right. It is also not akin to criticizing her religious beliefs (on the contrary to what many of you think).

This might be a good place to start:



Its from this thread: **Sticky** Critical Thinking Resources

--

what's a tea party? Is that a religious ritual? I googled it up and most of the results have to do with politics.

LoL... If you're not joking, its like this except there are usually a bunch of imaginary friends involved too.

 

[Gnug215]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

[...]

Gnug215, your reply is a pack of diamonds! Seriously. I have never heard such clear-cut explanation for skepticism from anywhere else. Hope you don't mind, but I wish to use your definitions in future, both for my own learning and for sharing with others.

[...]

Well, that will be 100$ for every time you use it.

Kidding, I'm glad, and rather surprized, I could help.

 

[FaithlessThinker]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

Thanks for the video, and the permission

Oh, someone had PM'ed me about gypsies. I thought they are supernatural beings, but they're actually aboriginal natives (travellers). I stand corrected. What I meant are something like gnomes. Gnomes are supernatural (or imaginary or whatever) right?

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

Thanks for the video, and the permission

Oh, someone had PM'ed me about gypsies. I thought they are supernatural beings, but they're actually aboriginal natives (travellers). I stand corrected. What I meant are something like gnomes. Gnomes are supernatural (or imaginary or whatever) right?

Technically those Spirits ARE the offset Spirits of Nature. :|

I read through your post and you're acting like they're different for some reason - they aren't. Those invisible gnomes/pixies/etc. are part of that Spiritual stuff she believes. They're the same thing.

As I said, I'm not bullying you. My advice was much like the advice the rest of the thread gave you:
1) Get involved - even for show it's not such a bad thing. (You completely missed the teaparty analogy)
2) You cannot make someone think - it's a personal choice in the matter. You can only show that you are who you are without believing in Pixies and such, and that it does little for you.
3) She seems to be displacing emotions from some other part in her life that come about when beliefs are discussed. The best idea would be to discover what's really up.

 

[Case]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

anon - You might want to read "Nonviolent Communication" by Marshall Rosenberg.