Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her think.

[FaithlessThinker]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

Ok so what's the difference between a father participating with his kids in their tea parties (I presume they come from Alice in Wonderland?) and me participating with my wife in her rituals?
Both have imaginary beings involved.
Both have a proportion of believers and unbelievers.
Both sound like fun.

The difference is, the father knows once his kids grow up, they will (most of the time) realize what the word "imaginary" means in their imaginary friends, and therefore bid these friends goodbye as they pass through their teen years. Here I am with a full-blown adult who still believes in imaginary friends, and doesn't know what "imaginary" means.

You know, I can't even tease her "you're wicked like a wolf." It brings out her religious self in her response (after a short laugh): "I'm not a wolf, I'm a vamp. But I like wolves." I was referring to a real wolf, and the portrayal of wolves as wicked in stories like "Little Red Riding Hood." She was referring to a Werewolf. :roll:

 

[Gnug215]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

Ok so what's the difference between a father participating with his kids in their tea parties (I presume they come from Alice in Wonderland?) and me participating with my wife in her rituals?
Both have imaginary beings involved.
Both have a proportion of believers and unbelievers.
Both sound like fun.

The difference is, the father knows once his kids grow up, they will (most of the time) realize what the word "imaginary" means in their imaginary friends, and therefore bid these friends goodbye as they pass through their teen years. Here I am with a full-blown adult who still believes in imaginary friends, and doesn't know what "imaginary" means.

You know, I can't even tease her "you're wicked like a wolf." It brings out her religious self in her response (after a short laugh): "I'm not a wolf, I'm a vamp. But I like wolves." I was referring to a real wolf, and the portrayal of wolves as wicked in stories like "Little Red Riding Hood." She was referring to a Werewolf. :roll:

Well, personally, I think it's great that you tolerate this. I'm not sure I would be able to, having developed a healthy antipathy towards stuff like that in recent years.

However, it sounds like something can be done with the communication between the two of you. There seem to be some words and concepts that you should probably just avoid alltogether.

You, anon, should probably try to avoid all references to nature.

And well, instead of saying "You're wicked like a wolf", maybe say, "You're wicked like a waterprocessingplant!"

Sounds advice, if I do say myself.

 

[nasher168]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

Sidetracking a bit I know, but that intrigues me. Are Werewolves not seen as bad in her religion then? Or are they just a metaphor for a person's character?

 

[Asrahn]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

Ok so what's the difference between a father participating with his kids in their tea parties (I presume they come from Alice in Wonderland?) and me participating with my wife in her rituals?
Both have imaginary beings involved.
Both have a proportion of believers and unbelievers.
Both sound like fun.

The difference is, the father knows once his kids grow up, they will (most of the time) realize what the word "imaginary" means in their imaginary friends, and therefore bid these friends goodbye as they pass through their teen years. Here I am with a full-blown adult who still believes in imaginary friends, and doesn't know what "imaginary" means.

You know, I can't even tease her "you're wicked like a wolf." It brings out her religious self in her response (after a short laugh): "I'm not a wolf, I'm a vamp. But I like wolves." I was referring to a real wolf, and the portrayal of wolves as wicked in stories like "Little Red Riding Hood." She was referring to a Werewolf. :roll:

Well, personally, I think it's great that you tolerate this. I'm not sure I would be able to, having developed a healthy antipathy towards stuff like that in recent years.

However, it sounds like something can be done with the communication between the two of you. There seem to be some words and concepts that you should probably just avoid alltogether.

You, anon, should probably try to avoid all references to nature.

And well, instead of saying "You're wicked like a wolf", maybe say, "You're wicked like a waterprocessingplant!"

Sounds advice, if I do say myself.

Why not turn it into an entirely positive thing as well?

"You're my little cambrian explosion!". You'll be winning hearts and minds before you know it

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

Sidetracking a bit I know, but that intrigues me. Are Werewolves not seen as bad in her religion then? Or are they just a metaphor for a person's character?

Vampires in the Metaphysical sense is anyone who saps energies off of another person because they are not able to obtain energy on their own - they need it to survive. Anyone can absorb energies from others, but Vampires must absorb energies because their body does not produce these energies needed for the natural feelings of Humanity.
I think she's just a Twilight.Underworld/World of Darkness fangirl. The actual Vampires are dull emokids who can't feel joy/happiness/pleasure unless they have someone to leech off of.

Werewolves exist in three senses - Psycholigical (the person has the mental disease referred to as "Lycanthropy" where they believe that they are a Werewolf with every fiber of their being), Spiritual (where one's Spirit is that of a Wolf, and their personality is shown to reflect that in certain aspects - a Shaman would most liikely claim this. Some legends say that the Spiritual Werewolf could change into the creature upon a certain night or under certain circumstances), and Literal (the person retains the ability to, unaided by any Spirit or Higher Power, change into a state of a Wolf). You're either Born a Werewolf or Cursed one.

The combat between the two races was first dramatized within the game "World of Darkness" where Werewolves were seen as the protecters of their territory and the people within it, whilst Vampires were considered plauges that could only destroy humanity. There's no Mythological evidence to say they were ever at war beyond Hollywood.

 

[FaithlessThinker]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

waterprocessingplant is wicked? :lol: And I don't get the "cambrian explosion" bit.

Sidetracking a bit I know, but that intrigues me. Are Werewolves not seen as bad in her religion then? Or are they just a metaphor for a person's character?

A werewolf or werwolf, also known as a lycanthrope (from the Greek λυκάνθρωπος: λύκος, lukos, "wolf", and άνθρωπος, anthrōpos, man), is a mythological or folkloric human with the ability to shapeshift into a wolf or an anthropomorphic wolf-like creature, either purposely, by being bitten or scratched by another werewolf, or after being placed under a curse. This transformation is often associated with the appearance of the full moon, as popularly noted by the medieval chronicler Gervase of Tilbury, and perhaps in earlier times among the ancient Greeks through the writings of Petronius.
...
According to the first dictionary of modern Serbian language (published by Vuk Stefanović-Karadžić in 1818) vukodlak / вукодлак (werewolf) and vampir / вампир (vampire) are synonyms, meaning a man who returns from his grave for purposes of fornicating with his widow. The dictionary states this to be a common folk tale.
...
There were numerous reports of werewolf attacks, and consequent court trials, in sixteenth century France. In some of the cases there was clear evidence against the accused of murder and cannibalism, but none of association with wolves; in other cases people have been terrified by such creatures, such as that of Gilles Garnier in Dole in 1573, there was clear evidence against some wolf but none against the accused. The loup-garou eventually ceased to be regarded as a dangerous heretic and reverted to the pre-Christian notion of a "man-wolf-fiend." The lubins or lupins were usually female and shy in contrast to the aggressive loups-garous.

 

[Gnug215]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

waterprocessingplant is wicked? :lol: And I don't get the "cambrian explosion" bit.

Have you ever been at a waterprocessing plant?

Oh, and I think the Cambrian Explosion bit was a reference to trying to teach your wife a thing or two about science while still saying nice things to her.

 

[Giliell]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

Do fathers not partake in tea parties with the daughters they love? Sometimes you have to suspend reality for the bonding power of ritual...

Believe me, kids know pretty much that they are imaginary, too
My daughter isn't even three years old and has the wildest imagination ever. But she knows that she has to move her dolls, plushies, bears and has to do their voices and that there's no real coffee in the cup.

Besides, even if your original idea were true, what a degrading, negative thing would it be to treat his wife like an ignorant child?

 

[vasquez]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

I could never be in a relationship with someone like that. I don't know many wiccans, but the few I do know are very stubborn and willing to argue over anything -- my best friends girl considers herself a wiccan, something I recently found out (the last 2 years) after knowing him for at least 12 (as well as her). I believe that a lot of my findings regarding her wiccan-ness and her understanding of my views on such came to be because of the popularity of social media -- I was always one to poke jabs at homeopathy, alternative medicine and the harm that it causes which she doesn't agree with, it became such a hot issue that I had to block her from various social sites I was affiliated with --

Oh yea, hi.

 

[FaithlessThinker]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

Hey all, been a bit busy. Nothing much had been happening since. Life goes on as usual. I suppose it's fine as long as you don't give a damn about what the other person believes, and they don't give a damn about you either.

Anyway, yesterday I finished reading The End of Faith by Sam Harris. It's one of the best eye-openers I have read. The most important lesson I learnt from it is how human beings have conceived of the concept of "soul" which is merely a word representing the "I" in us. I don't have the book with me right now, otherwise I'd have quoted a few paragraphs. Grab it if you can!

You, anon, should probably try to avoid all references to nature.

Agreed. It always seems to be "nature" that's the root cause of arguments.

what a degrading, negative thing would it be to treat his wife like an ignorant child?

Yup. It's one thing to be ignorant, it's another to be treated as such.

I don't know many wiccans, but the few I do know are very stubborn and willing to argue over anything... it became such a hot issue that I had to block her from various social sites I was affiliated with

Wow! All in all, it seems to me that religions are all evil, no matter how peaceful they may seem. Just like slavery was abolished, religions need to be abolished as well. I can forsee certain people here would disagree in defence of their own religion. But isn't that what slavetrader and slaveowners did when slavery was being abolished?

 

[borrofburi]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

Wow! All in all, it seems to me that religions are all evil, no matter how peaceful they may seem. Just like slavery was abolished, religions need to be abolished as well. I can forsee certain people here would disagree in defence of their own religion. But isn't that what slavetrader and slaveowners did when slavery was being abolished?

It would not work out well. It'd drive it underground, etc. The solution is not any sort of abolishment, or forcing it upon them, or any of that. Education is the solution, more educated people (especially educated in analytical and critical thinking, as well as science) tend to be more rational, rationality is good.

 

[Gnug215]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

Wow! All in all, it seems to me that religions are all evil, no matter how peaceful they may seem. Just like slavery was abolished, religions need to be abolished as well. I can forsee certain people here would disagree in defence of their own religion. But isn't that what slavetrader and slaveowners did when slavery was being abolished?

Us non-religious people really have to show the religious that we have a good idea and a better alternative. I think the best thing we can do is be good examples, and try our best to explain our positions to others in a reasonable and friendly manner. Anything else is bound to fail, as I see it.

And that's my same suggestion for you with regards to your wife; be the good example, and she'll be likely to start thinking about that on her own.

 

[vasquez]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

I don't believe it's religion that was the problem in my own experience, but dogmatism .. those few people i mentioned could've been atheist, and they'd still be just as stubborn. It's just that, there are those people you can never sit down and have a conversation with, because they turn all disagreements into a personal attack.

 

[Gnug215]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

I don't believe it's religion that was the problem in my own experience, but dogmatism .. those few people i mentioned could've been atheist, and they'd still be just as stubborn. It's just that, there are those people you can never sit down and have a conversation with, because they turn all disagreements into a personal attack.

I absolutely agree. Fanaticism and mental stubbornness is sadly not restricted to religious people alone. That kind of mentality is everywhere.

In my experience, many atheists are quite argumentative, some to the point where you think there's something seriously wrong with them. It's as if the whole world is against these people in their mind - and they only seem to thrive when they feel this is the case.

Generalizations aside, I think the future will reveal some neurological and psychological mechanisms behind this stuff, and perhaps they can be treated?

 

[e2iPi]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

In my experience, many atheists are quite argumentative,

ARE NOT!

-sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[FaithlessThinker]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

You know what just happened? My wife wants to do drugs! I said NO! Well I did not say NO! directly, I made her choose not to do it by saying "You can if you want to, but I really don't want you to, and I will never like it if you did." It's a good thing she wouldn't do things I don't like (and I don't do things she doesn't like).

Well, it's not the "drugs" drugs like marijuana, LSD, heroine, cocaine etc. It's this hallucinogenic drug that's used for spiritual and religious activities like shamanism and, quite disturbingly, new age religions like wicca. It's called entheogen [link]. Any comments?

It would not work out well. It'd drive it underground, etc. The solution is not any sort of abolishment, or forcing it upon them, or any of that. Education is the solution, more educated people (especially educated in analytical and critical thinking, as well as science) tend to be more rational, rationality is good.

Yes, I agree. Banning religion is not so much a good idea (but sometimes drastic measures may be necessary). A more reasonable solution would be for governments of all secular countries to denounce the unnecessary respect they give to religions. Their secular legal systems must apply to all citizens (and people in the country, where applicable) equally regardless of their religious status. No citizen must be granted any special legal privilege solely due to his religious status as this is a disadvantage for followers of other religions.

All children must be considered non-religious until they have grown up enough to study religions and choose one according their own liking (or remain non-religious). Unbiased religious education must also be provided in secular education systems. Religious freedom is to ensure that nobody is harmed for the religion he/she chooses to follow, and nobody harms anyone else for their choice. It would also mean that anyone can create their own belief systems based on their own convictions and no-one must be limited to a choice between the so-called "recognized" religions. [Some of you may debate, saying that religion must be removed. Theoretically yes, a world without religion will be a much better world. However, it is not practical in our current situation where so many people believes in something or the other that's not proven.]

Currently all the above mentioned are not the case in all secular countries, and the one religion which has infiltrated secular systems (and continues to do so) to have special privileges and separate "religio-secular" laws (adhering to their religion, while everyone else is subjected to secular law) has 1.6 billion followers worldwide. The problem is much of any secular government is run by religious people. We secular people need to produce more babies and take over the government! :lol:

I think the best thing we can do is be good examples, and try our best to explain our positions to others in a reasonable and friendly manner. Anything else is bound to fail, as I see it.

Even that is bound to fail, actually. It would work only if the religious is willing to sit down and listen to your explanations, which is rarely the case. Most of them will just slap you with their "You're the devil" screams.

... they turn all disagreements into a personal attack.

I can't agree more with you! The religious is so particularly susceptible to turning disagreements into personal attacks. A scientist when disagreed to, will calmly explain again or correct himself. A religious person simply goes bonkers and screams "You're attacking my beliefs. I have the right to believe whatever I want!" It's so strange how huge the difference is, and it's so phenomenal how religion makes it so hard for someone to disagree to its follower.

 

[acheron]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

You know what just happened? My wife wants to do drugs! I said NO! Well I did not say NO! directly, I made her choose not to do it by saying "You can if you want to, but I really don't want you to, and I will never like it if you did." It's a good thing she wouldn't do things I don't like (and I don't do things she doesn't like).

Well, it's not the "drugs" drugs like marijuana, LSD, heroine, cocaine etc. It's this hallucinogenic drug that's used for spiritual and religious activities like shamanism and, quite disturbingly, new age religions like wicca. It's called entheogen [link]. Any comments?

Well, my first comment is that entheogens are a class of drugs, there isn't a drug called "entheogen". Traditional entheogens include peyote, ahayuasca (there are several english spellings of this one), hallucinogenic mushrooms of various sorts, and marijuana/cannabis. There are also synthesized compounds like MDMA/ecstasy which would definitely fall into this category. It is a category based on effect, not on chemical similarity, and thus is not a very distinct category. The term was created to try to find a better word for hallucinogenic/psychedelic drugs. (as most of them do not create true hallucinations, and the term psychedelic was similarly unspecific in its meaning)

My guess if she is into ritual/ceremonial practices is that she is interested in ahayuasca, as it has the most structured ritual use these days.

I understand your reaction, and will only say that I believe that the seeking of altered states is built into us as humans, and that use of any of the substances that are likely to be classed as entheogens is very unlikely to be harmful or addictive, especially when used in the context of spiritual practice. I think we all use drugs from caffeine, to alcohol, to chocolate to achieve altered states, and the considered use of these more powerful drugs is far more likely to be positive than negative.

That said, I don't think you'll find it will help you much either if your goal is to draw her away from spiritual practice. The experience for her doing this is likely to be very profound, and deeply meaningful to her. It might perhaps allow her to ask questions of herself about how she interacts with you about it though. If she does decide to do it, plant that seed... explain your concerns with how she treats you in the context of her spiritual practice and ask her whether she can consider your concerns during this practice.

 

[Gnug215]

Re: Wiccan wife and Irreligious husband. Help me make her th

I think the best thing we can do is be good examples, and try our best to explain our positions to others in a reasonable and friendly manner. Anything else is bound to fail, as I see it.

Even that is bound to fail, actually. It would work only if the religious is willing to sit down and listen to your explanations, which is rarely the case. Most of them will just slap you with their "You're the devil" screams.

Well, sure, against the real fundy nutters, that too will fail. But not all religious people are like that, and I'd dare say not a majority of them. There are lot of moderates and fence-sitters. That's the people we're aiming for.
I also really hope your wife is one of those...