Why you, and everyone else should be a 'communist'

[Prolescum]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[MRaverz]

Communism never works, people are too damn greedy.

Damn people.

Equal opportunities is all good, but forced equality just isn't fair.

Communism has never been given a run, so we don't know that it would or would not work. I can't imagine a particular reason it wouldn't.

Communism is simply putting the means of production in the hands of the proletariat. 'Forced equality' is just a commonly trotted out strawman; neither Marx nor Trotsky made any such proposal. How many of either man's works do you have on your shelf, by chance?

I fail to see how Communism has never been given a chance, it's been the form of government in many countries all over the globe. Yet it only remains in China (as far as I am aware).

I'm no political genius, in fact I haven't much of an interest in it. But I do know people who lived under Communism in Poland, they all say that it's a good concept, but in reality people just stop working because they have no reason to succeed.

 

[Andiferous]

I fail to see how Communism has never been given a chance, it's been the form of government in many countries all over the globe. Yet it only remains in China (as far as I am aware).

I'm no political genius, in fact I haven't much of an interest in it. But I do know people who lived under Communism in Poland, they all say that it's a good concept, but in reality people just stop working because they have no reason to succeed.

Well, properly, "Communism" is a theoretical system that has never come to fruition, and what we know as Communism started in an attempt to replicate it, but fell into some kind of horrible mutant version that isn't really true to its original principles. Granted, it's sort of an optimistic idea that has been corrupted by people.

 

[richi1173]

Communism has never been given a run, so we don't know that it would or would not work. I can't imagine a particular reason it wouldn't.

There have been communist systems in the world.

Take for example the Bushmen of Southern Africa.

They are characterized by a total egalitarian society.

 

[richi1173]

I fail to see how Communism has never been given a chance, it's been the form of government in many countries all over the globe. Yet it only remains in China (as far as I am aware).

I'm no political genius, in fact I haven't much of an interest in it. But I do know people who lived under Communism in Poland, they all say that it's a good concept, but in reality people just stop working because they have no reason to succeed.

To be fair, China, Cuba, or the former Soviet Union do not meet the criteria to be a communist society.

 

[richi1173]

Why you, and everyone else should be a 'communist' - or....at least anything other than 'capitalist'

How are you defining communist and capitalist?

capitalism is a closed eco-political paridigm : this is due to its economic foundation and conservation of its economic ideology, that of capitalism. This is of course bad, wrong, and foolish. as the focus is on the economic system, rather than the welfare of people, of which, the system serves.

An economic system is basically the interaction between human beings in producing and allocation of resources. Its a direct extension of the welfare of society; it just happens that capitalism has a stratified yet not inflexible society.

i]note[/i]: the fact that capitalism tends to sort itself out, is not a defence to this. it is regardless, an abstraction and delusion of principles. as it is a fact that money and value are self created via humanities needs. however capitalism is the values of wants. thus outlining its immorality

Wouldn't communism be the same thing? Communism is a system of wants also: people wanting to help each other for almost no reciprocity.

However, who gave you the idea that capitalism sorts itself out? Take a look at the financial sector in the crash of 2008 and 1929.

 

[obsidianavenger]

hint: not a fundie, never claimed to have read much of marx.

in any case he's full of surprises.

 

[Aught3]

Communism is simply putting the means of production in the hands of the proletariat.

That can't be the end of it though because that plan would never work (as far as I can see). Unless communism always entails returning to a simple agrarian society there must be something more.

 

[Grimstad]

I really don't get it. It doesn't matter if it's communism or capitalism. If the people at the top are corrupt, someone is going to get screwed. At least with capitalism I have the choice (I was going to say freedom but that would just set someone off on a tangent about being a slave to something) to live where I want, work where I want and do what I want. I think that a lot of people confuse communism with communalism. A somewhat tribal type existence where we are pretty much an extended family and we share. But once you start "trading" with another tribe, guess what. That's capitalism.

 

[borrofburi]

then thats just immoral ... then your are kind of worthless as a person

if you accept that capitalism works on a premise of the capital, the buisnes i would say this is immoral ... (i know little of the history) ... obvious immorality is evident via capitalism

I knew there was a reason I was avoiding this thread...

To PAB: you are being naive and simplistic to speak in the absolutes you attempt to use, the reality of reality is that things are not "obvious", things are complicated and difficult to unravel. Indeed I find it difficult to communicate how ineffective and inaccurate it is to think in the simplistic absolutes you seem to have adopted.

I fail to see how Communism has never been given a chance, it's been the form of government in many countries all over the globe. Yet it only remains in China (as far as I am aware).

No True Communism (tm).

 

[richi1173]

I knew there was a reason I was avoiding this thread...

Yeah, its going to get into a flamewar if we continue...

Unfortunately, there is no delete button anymore

 

[SatanicBunny]

To be fair, China, Cuba, or the former Soviet Union do not meet the criteria to be a communist society.

I agree, the do not meet the criteria. However, they do tell us a great deal of what tends to happen when a nation tries to convert itself to communism swiftly: It fails.

Society is a complex structure which developes according to the oppinions of its people. Trying to change the underlying system fast will result in a failure.

I honestly think that there is no "absolute" system which will somehow magically fix all problems of modern day societies. The free market system promotes innovation, which is a driving force for all advacement, but care needs to be taken to control it so that it won't overheat.

The "social-democratic" system employed by the nordic countries, which is basically a free market sytem with high tax rates that allow social healthcare and education for people has been working fairly well if we look at it from the viewpoint of happiness, education and Human Development Index.

Now of course, the system is far from perfection - but some conclusions can be made. For example, if we look at the top countries of the HDI-chart of 2009, out of the top 12 countries 10 (with the exception of Switzerland and Luxembourg) offer a form universal healthcare.

What I'm trying to say is that the best way to proceed is not to pick any one system and try to force it to people, but to try and pick the best sides of both capitalism and communism and integrate them into the society in a way which helps to advance society and keeps people healthy and happy. We're not there yet, but some steps to the right direction have been taken.

 

[McFiggly]

Communism never works, people are too damn greedy.

The fuedalists doubted wether Capitalism would work.

 

[Aught3]

What I'm trying to say is that the best way to proceed is not to pick any one system and try to force it to people, but to try and pick the best sides of both capitalism and communism and integrate them into the society in a way which helps to advance society and keeps people healthy and happy. We're not there yet, but some steps to the right direction have been taken.

This is the sentiment in this thread that I agree with the most.

 

[TheAzov]

Communism never works, people are too damn greedy.

Damn people.

Equal opportunities is all good, but forced equality just isn't fair.

Like, everyone paying the same fare to ride on the bus? ............

 

[TheAzov]

I'm utterly convinced. Hold on while I take the benefits of my hard labour and give it to people who simply have no desire to help themselves. Rewarding slacking and punishing hard work sure is the way to go.

This is the capitalist view: that "my" money derives from "my hard work," etc. The truth is that a capitalist's profits are derived from other peoples' money and hard work, and those other people get sick and tired of sitting at the table to watch another gobble up what theyvre put on it.

 

[MRaverz]

Communism never works, people are too damn greedy.

Damn people.

Equal opportunities is all good, but forced equality just isn't fair.

Like, everyone paying the same fare to ride on the bus? ............

People don't all pay the same fare.

I personally get a discount via my student card.

 

[obsidianavenger]

I'm utterly convinced. Hold on while I take the benefits of my hard labour and give it to people who simply have no desire to help themselves. Rewarding slacking and punishing hard work sure is the way to go.

This is the capitalist view: that "my" money derives from "my hard work," etc. The truth is that a capitalist's profits are derived from other peoples' money and hard work, and those other people get sick and tired of sitting at the table to watch another gobble up what theyvre put on it.

if "derived from" you mean "voluntarily traded for" then sure.

as for reasons communism wouldn't work- how about the problem of economic calculation

also thanks to this thread, i actually did go out and read marx- kevin r brown is absolutely right in that marx envisioned a world where only pleasant labor was performed and people did what they pleased... but this seems so utopian and unrealistic that i have a hard time taking it seriously :/

What I'm trying to say is that the best way to proceed is not to pick any one system and try to force it to people, but to try and pick the best sides of both capitalism and communism and integrate them into the society in a way which helps to advance society and keeps people healthy and happy. We're not there yet, but some steps to the right direction have been taken.

i think most on the board agree that this blending is an untenable strategy for religion and science- the two are completely contradictory and you can't have one without compromising the other. since they are ephemeral beliefs however, the results of the contradiction are just funny rather than messy. communism and capitalism are just as contradictory. means of production can be privately owned or publicly owned, not both. the efficacy of each system lies in its full implementation not in taking bits and pieces and applying them on a whim.

 

[richi1173]

The truth is that a capitalist's profits are derived from other peoples' money and hard work, and those other people get sick and tired of sitting at the table to watch another gobble up what theyvre put on it.

Those evil profits are responsible for the technological progress we have seen for the last 200 years and the subsequent reduction of poverty around the world.

How capitalist profits derived from other peoples money?

 

[Ozymandyus]

Those evil profits are responsible for the technological progress we have seen for the last 200 years and the subsequent reduction of poverty around the world.

How capitalist profits derived from other peoples money?

'Evil profits' are not responsible for technological progress. Science is largely responsible for technological progress - and many many scientists do not become wealthy for the extremely important work they do.

Progress happens despite the fact that people skim profits from the top to pad their pockets, not because of.