SpecialFrog said:maybe agnostic is a reasonable self-identifier.
That is my thoughts exactly.
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SpecialFrog said:maybe agnostic is a reasonable self-identifier.
Since we can't know anything for certain, Agnosticism - as against being agnostic about individual things - is a valid position as a perspective on what we can and can't know.Inferno said:"Agnostic" isn't a position in itself, it's a qualifier to a position.
Wikipedia said:Strong agnosticism (also called "hard", "closed", "strict", or "permanent agnosticism")
The view that the question of the existence or nonexistence of a deity or deities, and the nature of ultimate reality is unknowable by reason of our natural inability to verify any experience with anything but another subjective experience. A strong agnostic would say, "I cannot know whether a deity exists or not, and neither can you."
Wikipedia said:Weak agnosticism (also called "soft", "open", "empirical", or "temporal agnosticism")
The view that the existence or nonexistence of any deities is currently unknown but is not necessarily unknowable; therefore, one will withhold judgment until evidence, if any, becomes available. A weak agnostic would say, "I don't know whether any deities exist or not, but maybe one day, if there is evidence, we can find something out."
Wikipedia said:Agnosticism is sometimes used colloquially to refer to plurality of beliefs. An agnostic in this case might claim, "The concepts of a universe with or without a God represent intellectual tools that aid our exploration of reality; neither of these ideas are inherently wrong and both bear a useful conceptual utility."
tuxbox said:That said, I believe you can be Agnostic without it being a qualifier.[/b]
hackenslash said:You can't, because the required qualifier is the topic on which you're agnostic.
hackenslash said:Incidentally, my view is that the definition of 'weak atheism' you've quoted from Wiki is total bollocks. In the context of the god question, it's entirely redundant. Nobody knows whether or not an entity that could reasonably be described as a deity exists. We simply don't need a term with that definition. You might as well say 'human' or 'ten-toed' for all the information such a definition imparts.
tuxbox said:You always do this Hackenslash. I put up a definition either from Wikipedia or The New Oxford American Dictionary and you dismiss it out of hand.
Why is that not a valid definition? I checked my dictionary and it says something very similar. So, in your opinion, why is Agnosticism not a valid position?
Dragan Glas said:Since we can't know anything for certain, Agnosticism - as against being agnostic about individual things - is a valid position as a perspective on what we can and can't know.
Hence, I'm an Agnostic is valid in the above context.
Can you be certain of anything?Inferno said:Dragan Glas said:Since we can't know anything for certain, Agnosticism - as against being agnostic about individual things - is a valid position as a perspective on what we can and can't know.
Hence, I'm an Agnostic is valid in the above context.
No it isn't and I think we both know that's bullshit.
Are you agnostic when it comes to Dragons, Pixies and the Tooth-Fairy?
Agnosticism is a scientifically indisputable position to hold with regards to certain things, but it's certainly not a valid or reasonable position.
Dragan Glas said:Greetings,
Can you be certain of anything?Inferno said:No it isn't and I think we both know that's bullshit.
Are you agnostic when it comes to Dragons, Pixies and the Tooth-Fairy?
Agnosticism is a scientifically indisputable position to hold with regards to certain things, but it's certainly not a valid or reasonable position.
Kindest regards,
James
I think I can be certain that I exist. "I think, therefore I am" and all that. Descartes is one of those guys from which most people only know one thing, and I know two.Dragan Glas said:Greetings,
Can you be certain of anything?
Kindest regards,
James
Visaki said:I think I can be certain that I exist. "I think, therefore I am" and all that. Descartes is one of those guys from which most people only know one thing, and I know two.
What "I" am is a totally another question.
1 out of 2 isn't that badhackenslash said:That wasn't actually what Descartes was saying. There's nothing certain about your existence, or that of anybody else, and Descartes wasn't actually commenting on that, he was simply attempting to find a single foundational assumption on which epistemology could be constructed.
Most people only know one thing about Descartes, and that one thing is wrong.
Visaki said:But are you saying that I can't be sure that there is something, an "I", that exists?
This is with the caviat that "I" can be pretty much anything from the thing I think "I" am, a material human being, to some kind of, for a lack of better term, program that thinks it's a material being, to manifest dream. Point is that there must be something that exists for me to think that I exist.
Or maybe not. The only philosophy I've studied was a course mostly about the history of philosophers.
tuxbox said:My current position is Weak Agnosticism. I do not lack a belief in god/s, so I can't be an Atheist. I also do not believe in Theistic god/s. Divine intervention makes absolutely zero sense. Therefor, I can't be an Agnostic Theist. If you insist on Agnosticism being a qualifier, then I would be an Agnostic Deist.. That said, I believe you can be Agnostic without it being a qualifier.
hackenslash said:Pretty sure that explaining why it's bollocks, as I did, doesn't qualify as 'dismissing it out of hand'. Put simply, given that definition, everyone is agnostic, because nobody knows whether or not a deity exists, so the term is redundant under such a definition (or worse, a trivial tautology). It conveys exactly zero information.
hackenslash said:It's not that it isn't a valid position, it isn't a position on the existence of deities. It's only a position on whether it's possible to know (that's how Huxley used the term when he coined it, and the only useful usage).
BTW, citing dictionaries is a commission of the twin fallacies of argumentum ad populum (because dictionaries describe popular usage) and argumentum ad verecundiam (because dictionaries aren't authorities on what words mean, contrary to popular conceit).
hackenslash said:One can be an agnostic theist, in that one can believe that a deity exists but that true knowledge of whether or not a god exists is unknowable, for example.
hackenslash said:Agnosticism is a position on the possibility of knowledge, and has no bearing on whether one holds an active belief that a deity exists.
hackenslash said:The only mioddle-ground between atheism and theism is deism, which is, AFAIC, little more than a sop to the question. Dawkins called it 'sexed-up atheism'. I disagree, I call it 'tentative atheism' or, more accurately, 'frightened atheism'.
Dustnite said:This is why I don't use labels, these semantic arguments are so inane...
FWIW, I think 4 quadrant chart is the most useful at defining where one is on the theism/atheism chart. You can still try to believe that there was a Prime Mover, etc. but you're just invoking the god of the gaps argument to apply a reason to something we have no direct observation for. For that reason, I think it's silly to hold a Deist position.