What would you do?

[dreddin]

my advice isn't always the best to follow, but if they complained that i made water unclean, i'd fill up a water pistol with used bath water and... well, you can guess where it goes from here

on a serious note, i wouldn't be friends with someone who doesn't respect you, especially if they're acting as ridiculous as that

 

[borrofburi]

Funny. Why am I constantly informed by atheists that atheism is the absence of belief? I thought you had no beliefs to offend - or for others to care for.

Suck it up, cupcake. You're in their home, you comply by their rules. I would do the same.

Atheism doesn't have beliefs, atheists do; incidentally, one of those that is quite common is that we shouldn't be treated as inferior simply because we don't agree with you.

 

[nasher168]

Funny. Why am I constantly informed by atheists that atheism is the absence of belief? I thought you had no beliefs to offend - or for others to care for.
Suck it up, cupcake. You're in their home, you comply by their rules. I would do the same.

Sorry, but that's bollocks. You know full well what the OP meant and getting into the whole belief/unbelief issue is distracting from the real issue-that of basic respect of other people regardless of beliefs (or lack thereof).
Imagine if the situation was the other way round and people told a Muslim to drink alcohol with them or cease to be friends. It would be extremely offensive towards that Muslim and very disrespectful on the part of the people requesting it, would it not?

 

[UNFFwildcard]

"Atheism doesn't have beliefs, atheists do; incidentally, one of those that is quite common is that we shouldn't be treated as inferior simply because we don't agree with you." - borrofburi

Ritualistic impurity has nothing to do with inferiority just as a human being is no less human just because he is covered in mud. It does mean however that due consideration is required just as it would be if you were to walk into someone's home with muddy boots.

"Sorry, but that's bollocks. You know full well what the OP meant and getting into the whole belief/unbelief issue is distracting from the real issue-that of basic respect of other people regardless of beliefs (or lack thereof). Imagine if the situation was the other way round and people told a Muslim to drink alcohol with them or cease to be friends. It would be extremely offensive towards that Muslim and very disrespectful on the part of the people requesting it, would it not? " - nasher168

I agree that the real issue is that of offering respect - something that Salko7 is failing to do. The analogy you provide is misleading - the muddy boots analogy provided above is better. Respecting someone's beliefs does not mean you have to accept them as true; Salko7's friends knows that he thinks ritualistic impurity is nonsense and that he doesn't adhere to the same customs in his own home. It does mean though that you understand and acknowledge the importance such beliefs to the individual and take appropriate measures not to cause undue offence through your behaviour. Ritualistic uncleanliness properly understood does no injury against one's personal dignity or worth. As invited guests, adhering to such customs is a sign of your appreciation for your invitation to their home and the value you place upon your mutual friendship. If they make allowances, so be it, but they are not obligated to. Likewise, you are not responsible for ritualistically cleaning your home when your friends come over - though you may do so if you are charitable. Likewise, if I'm in a Muslim home and they request that I not drink alcohol, then I won't - but the principle is the same even if one atheist requests another atheist to respect his household or property in some specific manner.

Right now, salko7 is putting muddy footprints all over their carpets, and his unwillingness to adjust his behaviour accordingly is far more disrepectful than the absense of any charitable offering of allowances for his sake.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I wouldn't hang out with someone who thought I was "unclean". That's not friendship, I don't see how it possibly could be.

You don't have to get into a big confrontation with them, just stop spending time around extremely religious people. They tend to be assholes anyway.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Right now, salko7 is putting muddy footprints all over their carpets, and his unwillingness to adjust his behaviour accordingly is far more disrepectful than the absense of any charitable offering of allowances for his sake.

Sweet Satan that's such complete bullshit. RIght now, drops of completely clean water are touching their stuff, and they are complaining about cooties. The rest of us outgrew such childishness around puberty, except for religious morons who cling to as much idiocy as possible. There's no reason to respect stupid religious beliefs, let alone defend them.

 

[Private_slim]

Atheism doesn't have beliefs, atheists do; incidentally, one of those that is quite common is that we shouldn't be treated as inferior simply because we don't agree with you.

Ritualistic impurity has nothing to do with inferiority just as a human being is no less human just because he is covered in mud. It does mean however that due consideration is required just as it would be if you were to walk into someone's home with muddy boots.

How is that a good analogy? Mud is mud no matter what the persons believes, they believe that his normal bodily fluids and water he touches becomes unclean because of what he believes.

Sorry, but that's bollocks. You know full well what the OP meant and getting into the whole belief/unbelief issue is distracting from the real issue-that of basic respect of other people regardless of beliefs (or lack thereof). Imagine if the situation was the other way round and people told a Muslim to drink alcohol with them or cease to be friends. It would be extremely offensive towards that Muslim and very disrespectful on the part of the people requesting it, would it not?

I agree that the real issue is that of offering respect - something that Salko7 is failing to do. The analogy you provide is misleading - the muddy boots analogy provided above is better. Respecting someone's beliefs does not mean you have to accept them as true; Salko7's friends knows that he thinks ritualistic impurity is nonsense and that he doesn't adhere to the same customs in his own home. It does mean though that you understand and acknowledge the importance such beliefs to the individual and take appropriate measures not to cause undue offence through your behaviour. Ritualistic uncleanliness properly understood does no injury against one's personal dignity or worth. As invited guests, adhering to such customs is a sign of your appreciation for your invitation to their home and the value you place upon your mutual friendship. If they make allowances, so be it, but they are not obligated to. Likewise, you are not responsible for ritualistically cleaning your home when your friends come over - though you may do so if you are charitable. Likewise, if I'm in a Muslim home and they request that I not drink alcohol, then I won't - but the principle is the same even if one atheist requests another atheist to respect his household or property in some specific manner.

Right now, salko7 is putting muddy footprints all over their carpets, and his unwillingness to adjust his behaviour accordingly is far more disrepectful than the absense of any charitable offering of allowances for his sake.

Fist of, it doesn't seem he is a visitor.. As far as I gather if he lives with them it's a co-ed/collective/roommate thing, so they have no right putting extra labor on him and shunning him and look at him as an inferior human(this they probably do anyway though) because they have a precious book to follow.

 

[salko7]

i might need to clear out somethings:

first, the "unclean" part is considered Spiritual , in an idea like "every thing has the light of god in it and is considered clean(good) , but a disbeliever is considered unclean(bad)" . it might seem like they think that I as a person im bad but that's not it , they still treat me the same as any one else who's muslim or non-muslim.

secondly, im not living with them so im a visitor at their place, yes i should respect their house rules but their roles are coming form a belief that i consider ridiculous and to be honest they felt a bit ashamed when they were asking to "not touch water". this reminds me that not all of em asked this of me but one of them who i trust told me that they felt this way (since they were talking about it behind my back). after they knew that i knew about their issue with me, that's when they felt ashamed and a little bit stupid asking me this.

finally, they were a bunch so not all of em were agreeing with the "passive aggressive" approach, these who didn't agree are the ones that i like anyway but they do still want me to stay somewhat alert.
---------------
update
--------------

so i haven't change my behavior about water and at least the guys i like hanging with don't seem to take notice but it did effect my thoughts on having friends who are religious. it's just weird that they asked me this just now although they knew im an atheist for a while , like their waiting for the right moment to ask me to do something until one demand after another i do all that they want me to do.

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings salko7,

I'm a scholorship student from Saudi Arabia studying in the Netherlands , im here with other Saudi students and i made some friends , they know i'm Atheist , their fine with it.

But they have a problem with me being around , as they see me as "Unclean" or "Taher" .
So they asked me to do some simple stuff that's related to water , like : not spill water off of my body on their floor or use their towels, cause the water that touches becomes unclean.

i had a conversation with some of them about it and they told me how they feel and do if any water touches me , like cleaning the whole bath room or becoming phobic about an area that water dropped on.
so they want me to "care" for their belief , i told them that's out of my control and that's their belief that makes them do these stuff and they should suck it up. They replied we could disconnect from you and not be friends but we're telling you this because we don't want to do that.

but a question is raised here, why should i care for their belief if they don't care for mine ?
& What would you do if this happened to you ?

From what you say, it appears that you're living with them in shared accommodation, such as a college dormitory?!

If that's the case, I would approach the college authorities to change dormitories.

If you're in shared accommodation off-campus, then I would consider moving.

If the property belongs to them - or one of them - and you're staying there, either abide by their "house-rules" or move elsewhere.

Regardless of the circumstances, you could still meet up with them as you wished, just not at either their or your living spaces.

Being made to feel as if you're "unclean" - regardless of the reality of the situation - is not pleasant.

I recall, many years ago, a subcontractor (in the computer industry) who was quite happy to swear at people and use foul language - yet if anybody broke wind (burped or farted) he'd demand that they leave the room and wouldn't talk to them unless they apologized!!

Needless to say, most people called him all sorts of things! :lol:

On one occasion, when I was the transgressor, and he told me to "go away" - in his usual foul-mouthed way - I pointed out that he was choosing to swear, whereas I had broken wind through a natural process.

He wouldn't accept this point at all - despite others in the office agreeing with me.

He ended up being ignored by the rest of us - "shunned", for all intents - until he complained to a manager, who then heard our side of it.

He was told that he either had to tone it down or his contract wouldn't be renewed(!)

Kindest regards,

James

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

Ah, I see we've just posted on top of each other!

...And I see you are staying with them as a guest - though they're split on the issue - and you haven't changed your behaviour.

I think it depends on who owns the property - or the majority who feel one way or the other.

Whichever, as I said earlier - either abide by the owner/majority rule or move. You can still be friends away from their premises.

Kindest regards,

James

 

[UNFFwildcard]

"Sweet Satan that's such complete bullshit. RIght now, drops of completely clean water are touching their stuff, and they are complaining about cooties. The rest of us outgrew such childishness around puberty, except for religious morons who cling to as much idiocy as possible. There's no reason to respect stupid religious beliefs, let alone defend them."
- Improbable Joe

Is this the same tact and outlook on others' beliefs that has made atheists so 'loved' within America & elsewhere?
No one is asking you to believe or defend such notions of uncleanliness.

"How is that a good analogy? Mud is mud no matter what the persons believes, they believe that his normal bodily fluids and water he touches becomes unclean because of what he believes." - Private_slim

I did not make that analogy so that you may believe it, I made that analogy so that you may understand the belief.

"Fist of, it doesn't seem he is a visitor.. As far as I gather if he lives with them it's a co-ed/collective/roommate thing, so they have no right putting extra labor on him and shunning him and look at him as an inferior human(this they probably do anyway though) because they have a precious book to follow." - Private_slim

If they share rooms, then things undoubtibly become more complicated.
Your remark about them thinking him inferior is a baseless assertion.

 

[Private_slim]

Your remark about them thinking him inferior is a baseless assertion.

Yes, I believe it is.
____


Seeing that you are visiting them, well, try talking with them again if you feel unfairly treated

 

[RichardMNixon]

"Sweet Satan that's such complete bullshit. RIght now, drops of completely clean water are touching their stuff, and they are complaining about cooties. The rest of us outgrew such childishness around puberty, except for religious morons who cling to as much idiocy as possible. There's no reason to respect stupid religious beliefs, let alone defend them."
- Improbable Joe

Is this the same tact and outlook on others' beliefs that has made atheists so 'loved' within America & elsewhere?
No one is asking you to believe or defend such notions of uncleanliness.

"How is that a good analogy? Mud is mud no matter what the persons believes, they believe that his normal bodily fluids and water he touches becomes unclean because of what he believes." - Private_slim

I did not make that analogy so that you may believe it, I made that analogy so that you may understand the belief.

"Fist of, it doesn't seem he is a visitor.. As far as I gather if he lives with them it's a co-ed/collective/roommate thing, so they have no right putting extra labor on him and shunning him and look at him as an inferior human(this they probably do anyway though) because they have a precious book to follow." - Private_slim

If they share rooms, then things undoubtibly become more complicated.
Your remark about them thinking him inferior is a baseless assertion.

UnFf, my religion is Jahoozaflovianism. As a Jahoozaflovian, I am deeply offended by blasphemous sequences of capital letters. Capital letters should be separated from one another; to put multiple capital letters together is unclean, and you are currently contaminating this forum with your capitalized filth. Since you've made it clear how important it is to you to respect the religious beliefs of others, I trust you will adjust your username accordingly to respect my religious beliefs.

 

[simonecuttlefish]

Sounds like the Wahhabi school of mind control to me. Do they wake you up in the middle of the night during their prayers? Perhaps they could "respect" your right to sleep? I bet that wouldn't go far as "respect" for someone else's religion means "compliance" to them. Dragging people out of sleep is a powerful and frequently use mind control/compliance torture technique btw. If you were a raging suffi, would dancing in trance state meditation cause problems as well? Please, don't do that where I have to watch, it shows disrespect to my made up invented fantasy ritualised compliance pressures.

I hope finding somewhere else to stay is an option for you. Good luck with it, but always remember, it's THEM who has the problem. Tolerance can be granted, but true respect is earned, and there is no respect in demanded compliance. Will your 'apostasy' be a problem if you move back to Saudi Arabia? If so, I assume there is a legitimate asylum claim that can be made (if you wish not to return).

PS ... break into the town water supply and have a swim : )

 

[Story]

Wow...

It's amazing how easy it can seem to just "change your friends" to some people. It's not that easy for a bunch of reasons ranging from personal human attachments to that fact that you'll just keep bumping into them... the awkwardness is really.... awkward.

There's a bunch of things you could do in this situation. The most logical thing to do is to:

1. Change your friends.
But this is the least emotional thing to do and despite rationale belief. Emotional reasons are really good reasons. I completely agree with people believing in god if it makes them happy, but I disagree when those beliefs impede on scientific progress.

2. Get them to change their friends.
Sometimes I find it more satisfying to make people disconnect from me instead of disconnecting myself. You can do this by refusing their advice and telling them that their demands are intrusive and illogical. This will probably lead to them just accepting you though...

3. Challenge them (Assuming they're Muslim)
I used to be Muslim and as far as I know. They're talking crap. Ask them for their evidence, they'll quote some scholar dude... then ask them if they were commanded by god to follow God and Muhammed or some other dude and they'll probably say that this guy knows his stuff, but all you need to say is that if what they're following wasn't ordered by God (Allah) then they're doing "Biddah" and quote Sahih Muslim (6-21).

And then just tell them that they could be innovating. Which is a grave sin in their own religion.

The whole water thing is not an instruction in Islam.

 

[UNFFwildcard]

"Sweet Satan that's such complete bullshit. RIght now, drops of completely clean water are touching their stuff, and they are complaining about cooties. The rest of us outgrew such childishness around puberty, except for religious morons who cling to as much idiocy as possible. There's no reason to respect stupid religious beliefs, let alone defend them."
- Improbable Joe

Is this the same tact and outlook on others' beliefs that has made atheists so 'loved' within America & elsewhere?
No one is asking you to believe or defend such notions of uncleanliness.

"How is that a good analogy? Mud is mud no matter what the persons believes, they believe that his normal bodily fluids and water he touches becomes unclean because of what he believes." - Private_slim

I did not make that analogy so that you may believe it, I made that analogy so that you may understand the belief.

"Fist of, it doesn't seem he is a visitor.. As far as I gather if he lives with them it's a co-ed/collective/roommate thing, so they have no right putting extra labor on him and shunning him and look at him as an inferior human(this they probably do anyway though) because they have a precious book to follow." - Private_slim

If they share rooms, then things undoubtibly become more complicated.
Your remark about them thinking him inferior is a baseless assertion.

UnFf, my religion is Jahoozaflovianism. As a Jahoozaflovian, I am deeply offended by blasphemous sequences of capital letters. Capital letters should be separated from one another; to put multiple capital letters together is unclean, and you are currently contaminating this forum with your capitalized filth. Since you've made it clear how important it is to you to respect the religious beliefs of others, I trust you will adjust your username accordingly to respect my religious beliefs.

Great. Another 'bright' who has missed the point of my post. :facepalm:

We are in a public forum with no declared religious or a-religious affiliation (however predominantly atheistic it may be). If I went in the home of a Jahoozaflovianist and used multiple capital letters while fully knowing this ritualistic uncleanliness rule, then by being unwilling to comply with this basic rule of those to whom they have granted me their hospitality, I'm simply being a douche. The Jahoozaflovianist also understands that I am not also a Jahoozaflovianist, and may make allowances for me not to follow the set rules for my sake. But this is granted out of charity; they are not required to do this.

I suspect, Richard, that you are soon going to have a religious conversion to something with a more stringent set of rules on ritualistic cleanliness. It won't work. As the rules become more difficult to follow, it should progressively become easier for the host to recognize just how much of a burden it will be for an unbeliever to comply with. As such, they will probably offer you exceptions to their house rules for your sake. If they are unable to do this, and you also unwiling/unable to comply with their cleanliness rules, then simply say that it is too big of a burden or a hassle and that you hope you can meet them somewhere outside their home.

For the case of salko, since he's living with them, he has four options:

1.) suck it up, and comply with their request
2.) Be a douche, and reap the consequences
3.) Diplomacy (I would try this first as it may resolve the issue)
4.) Move out

 

[RichardMNixon]

We are in a public forum with no declared religious or a-religious affiliation (however predominantly atheistic it may be). If I went in the home of a Jahoozaflovianist and used multiple capital letters while fully knowing this ritualistic uncleanliness rule, then by being unwilling to comply with this basic rule of those to whom they have granted me their hospitality, I'm simply being a douche. The Jahoozaflovianist also understands that I am not also a Jahoozaflovianist, and may make allowances for me not to follow the set rules for my sake. But this is granted out of charity; they are not required to do this.

Are you proposing that its harder for you to stop using sequences of capital letters than it is for the OP to not touch water near his friends? And it isn't just about their house, he can't spill water on them elsewhere either. Outside and sweating? Better not give them a high-five. Pool party? Nope. It's outrageous and irrational. And these allowances you're discussing are irrelevant because the expectation is already absurd and they're making no concession.

And don't try to pretend "unclean" isn't a condescending and distasteful label.

 

[UNFFwildcard]

We are in a public forum with no declared religious or a-religious affiliation (however predominantly atheistic it may be). If I went in the home of a Jahoozaflovianist and used multiple capital letters while fully knowing this ritualistic uncleanliness rule, then by being unwilling to comply with this basic rule of those to whom they have granted me their hospitality, I'm simply being a douche. The Jahoozaflovianist also understands that I am not also a Jahoozaflovianist, and may make allowances for me not to follow the set rules for my sake. But this is granted out of charity; they are not required to do this.

Are you proposing that its harder for you to stop using sequences of capital letters than it is for the OP to not touch water near his friends? And it isn't just about their house, he can't spill water on them elsewhere either. Outside and sweating? Better not give them a high-five. Pool party? Nope. It's outrageous and irrational. And these allowances you're discussing are irrelevant because the expectation is already absurd and they're making no concession.

And don't try to pretend "unclean" isn't a condescending and distasteful label.

I am not saying that it is harder for me to stop using sequences of capital letters than it is for the OP to not touch water near his friends.

If they want don't him spilling water on him, fine. There are people out there who don't want to come into contact with other things as well.

If someone asks you to respect something of themselves, whether you find the request absurd is irrelevant.

Let me explain something here.

For those of us who still recognize sacred things, we also understand that other people recognize other things as sacred too. Often, we do not understand why those other things are considered sacred, but by understanding how important & inalienable such things are with us we can in turn understand the importance & inalienability conferred by others upon such things. Ritualistic purity doesn't have anything to do with sacredness per se, but the reason I am explaining this is because Salko's question and the generally abrasive & apathetic nature of the answers that followed it present to me yet another symptom of a much greater problem - the failure of the atheist body here (and most probably atheists as a whole) to understand, acknowledge and respect such reciprocation. By respecting what is inalienable to others, so too do they in turn respect what is inalienable to us. This is a basic fact of life, and the failure of so many atheists to respect such reciprocosity is probably why atheists - among so many other groups of people - are considered overtly abrasive and apathetic by many in the first place.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Is this the same tact and outlook on others' beliefs that has made atheists so 'loved' within America & elsewhere?

It is the same "tact and outlook" that allows free people to overthrow the slavery of religious nonsense over the minds of men. IF it is too rough for you, feel free to "foe" me and never read another of my posts.

In the meanwhile, I'll not be gentle to assholes who treat other people badly for their lack of an imaginary sky daddy.

 

[RichardMNixon]

[A] If someone asks you to respect something of themselves, whether you find the request absurd is irrelevant.

Often, we do not understand why those other things are considered sacred, but by understanding how important & inalienable such things are with us we can in turn understand the importance & inalienability conferred by others upon such things.

[C] By respecting what is inalienable to others, so too do they in turn respect what is inalienable to us. This is a basic fact of life, and the failure of so many atheists to respect such reciprocosity is probably why atheists - among so many other groups of people - are considered overtly abrasive and apathetic by many in the first place.

[A] I ask you to respect my belief that you should send $500 to my paypal account.

Because they are arbitrary and often irrational.

[C] And if the OP feels disrespected by being called "unclean?" As a humanist I find such a declaration incredibly offensive and disrespectful. They expect him to respect their views on magic soul-cleanliness and he expects them to respect his worth as a human being. Which is the more reasonable request? Furthermore, we acknowledged that there may be no resolution, in which case we told him to find some new friends who would respect him, because respect is important, but that didn't sit well with you either, did it? So why must religious silliness be respected, but it is unreasonable to expect a person to be respected?