The Islamic conquer of Europe

[Visaki]

I've been called many things like islamophobic, racist, intolerant and even worse for posting something very akin to Dogma's Demises six suggestion to EU members on other forums. I wonder if defending the Finnish culture as it is now by speaking for those things makes me to be those things?

The fact is I don't want to live in a country that panders for religious whims, that has sharia law, or any religious, in any form or that thinks that taking immigrants, any immigrants, is a duty. I want to live, and the coming generations to live, in a country that protects religious beliefs by not condoning or persecuting any of then, that's laws are based on reason and logical thinking and that takes first care of it's own citizens and then uses what it can spare as efficently as possible to help as many people out of the deepest misery.

That being said I think that Dogma's Demise gets it right. There is no great conspiracy, perhaps a small on though and it won't have much effect. It all comes down to population statistics.

 

[nemesiss]

the only thing internet will do to reality is put it on a pedistool for all to watch and people to comment on it.
the fanaticism that is at the core of all religions seem to make people feel more unease, which makes fanatics unwelcome in society. it eventually soften alot of the religion, perhaps even change it significantly.
perhaps the change will be so significant that it seems like a new religion that has evolved.

there ar indeed people who believe islam wants to conquer europe, just google "sharia4" google will (most likely) give you options sharia4belgium and sharia4holland. these groups (though small in number) are hellbound on getting sharia to dominate law and they claim it's written/commanded in their holy book.

im not that affraid of them, they do not seem to have much power. however, disussions about them often give people an uneasy feeling. either because people have been conditioned to "respect" religion or that the ones screaming out loud and threaten with murder or any reason.

offcourse, such groups can give rise to conspiracies. mostly because people start to use fantasy instead of facts and it starts to snowball into a blob of crazyness.

 

[ohcac]

There may be something to be said for Islam being a uniquely dangerous religion. Christianity, while it presents it's own problems to the politics of the west (young earth creationism in public schools, denying of contract rights to homosexuals, to name but a couple) seems more tamed by the collective social zeitgeist and increasingly liberal consensus here. Rick Perry and Rick Santorum may say some things about how nasty they think homosexuality is here in the states, but this is at the very least met with a strong negative response by a large percentage of the population of that same country. This is not true at all in the Islamic world toward extreme Sharia law and is less true in the increasingly Islamised Europe. If the polling statistics cited by people such as Sam Harris are to be trusted, the situation in Islam is different in that the nastier aspects of the Hadith and Qu'ran would seem to be catalyzed by the currently prevalent attitudes in the middle east and in Muslim immigrants to Europe.

Although I have held quite libertarian positions in the past concerning immigration laws, this has made me think a little more seriously about considerations of immigration restriction. It has become more taboo to support immigration restrictions in the United States because many view restrictions as something which are denying those in desolate situations the right to try and obtain a better life with more opportunities. Certainly, it won't be a full sway one way or the other. However, to be frank, I believe that western democratic culture is superior to Islamic culture and I believe that any compensation European culture gives to Islam will be more bad than good.

Another thing that bothers me is that people (sometimes reasonably intelligent ones) still counter me with charges of "racism" when I express a dislike for many of the aspects of Islam. This baffles me, especially when I receive this criticism for ardent secularists, who should know better and who should certainly know that Islam is a set of truth propositions about the universe independent of the mind that assesses those propositions.

 

[tuxbox]

There may be something to be said for Islam being a uniquely dangerous religion. Christianity, while it presents it's own problems to the politics of the west (young earth creationism in public schools, denying of contract rights to homosexuals, to name but a couple) seems more tamed by the collective social zeitgeist and increasingly liberal consensus here. Rick Perry and Rick Santorum may say some things about how nasty they think homosexuality is here in the states, but this is at the very least met with a strong negative response by a large percentage of the population of that same country. This is not true at all in the Islamic world toward extreme Sharia law and is less true in the increasingly Islamised Europe. If the polling statistics cited by people such as Sam Harris are to be trusted, the situation in Islam is different in that the nastier aspects of the Hadith and Qu'ran would seem to be catalyzed by the currently prevalent attitudes in the middle east and in Muslim immigrants to Europe.

Christianity has 300 plus years on Islam. In the past Christianity was just as violent and oppressive as Islam is now. While Christianity may not be as violoent or as oppressive as Islam is now, it is still a danger to individual liberty.

 

[Prolescum]

...the increasingly Islamised Europe.

Oh please. I hear this stupid phrase repeated all the time, and it's effing idiotic; Europe is no more increasingly Islamised than it is increasingly caramelised.

Another thing that bothers me is that people (sometimes reasonably intelligent ones) still counter me with charges of "racism" when I express a dislike for many of the aspects of Islam.

Probably because America spends most of its time and money killing poor brown people.

Joking aside, if you're going to make ill-informed statements like "the increasingly Islamised Europe", I'm not surprised you receive the charge of racist; only the racists and bigots believe that stupid fucking sentence.

 

[The Felonius Pope]

Probably because America spends most of its time and money killing poor brown people.

Come on, now. We kill rich brown people too.

 

[tuxbox]

Come on, now. We kill rich brown people too.

lmfao

 

[The Felonius Pope]

lmfao

You flatter me. You're too kind.

 

[Dogma's Demise]

...the increasingly Islamised Europe.

Oh please. I hear this stupid phrase repeated all the time, and it's effing idiotic; Europe is no more increasingly Islamised than it is increasingly caramelised.

Oh yeah what could POSSIBLY lead people to believe that, I dunno maybe:

1. The exemption of animal welfare regulation on religious grounds: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/2977086.stm
2. Sharia civil courts now operating in the UK
3. Blasphemy laws trying to limit criticism of Islam
4. Low birthrates among natives, high among the more traditional Muslim immigrants
5. Tolerance of FGM on religious grounds: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-fails-to-halt-female-genital-mutilation-1845731.html
6. The fact that people cry "racism!" to silence criticism of Islam
7. ... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/7204635.stm (no comment /facepalm)
8. The fact that 28% of UK Muslims want UK to become an Islamic state: http://my.telegraph.co.uk/danielpycock/danpycock/956/what-do-british-muslims-think-of-the-uk/
9. The fact that Andy Choudary and people like him aren't in jail.

Joking aside, if you're going to make ill-informed statements like "the increasingly Islamised Europe", I'm not surprised you receive the charge of racist; only the racists and bigots believe that stupid fucking sentence.

Guilt by association.

 

[Prolescum]

Oh please. I hear this stupid phrase repeated all the time, and it's effing idiotic; Europe is no more increasingly Islamised than it is increasingly caramelised.

Oh yeah what could POSSIBLY lead people to believe that, I dunno maybe:

1. The exemption of animal welfare regulation on religious grounds: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/2977086.stm

European Convention for the Protection of Animals for Slaughter[/url]"]Article 17

1. Each Contracting Party may authorize derogations from the provisions concerning prior stunning in the
following cases:
- slaughtering in accordance with religious rituals,
- emergency slaughtering when stunning is not possible,
- slaughtering of poultry and rabbits by authorized methods causing instantaneous death,
- killing of animals for the purposes of health control where special reasons make this necessary.

...

Certified a true copy of the sole original documents, in English and in French, deposited in the archives of
the Council of Europe.

Strasbourg, this 21st May 1979.

Doesn't say a gorram thing about "Islam", only slaughtering in accordance with religious rituals. Are you also going to tell us about the Hebrewdisation (new word yay!) of Europe? Fail.

2. Sharia civil courts now operating in the UK

You've obviously never put the time in to read the Arbitration act. Once you've done so, you may apologise to the reading audience for pretending that it matters.

3. Blasphemy laws trying to limit criticism of Islam

Go read the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008. Once you've done that, you may cry for a moment before continuing here.

4. Low birthrates among natives, high among the more traditional Muslim immigrants

You had better give me the statistics you're using, as I've been having a look and they're not in your favour.

For example, native birth rates are actually climbing

[centre]

[/centre]

Auntie[/url]"]Like many people I suspect, my immediate thought was that higher fertility rates might be a consequence of higher immigrations levels. Apparently not.

Immigration has had an impact on the birth rate (the number of babies): foreign mothers now account for a quarter of all births.

Note how he says foreign, not Muslim.

Immigration has not had any significant impact on the fertility rate (babies per mother): the big increase in immigration between 2001 and 2008 was from Eastern Europe, notably Poland, but women from the accession countries do not generally have more babies than British-born mothers. In fact, the fertility rate in Poland is significantly lower than the UK - 1.2 in 2003 and now just under 1.4.

So, put your money where your mouth is and cough up some citations. Let's see if your stats match mine.

5. Tolerance of FGM on religious grounds: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 45731.html

I like how you think you're being cunning by describing this as "tolerance" of FGM; it's literally nothing of the sort. In fact:

A Home Office spokesman said: "We have appointed an FGM co-ordinator to drive forward a co-ordinated government response to this appalling crime and make recommendations for future work."

You're making your "I'm not a racist" card out of rice paper.

6. The fact that people cry "racism!" to silence criticism of Islam

If you were actually criticising Islam, that would be fine. Parroting the shite trickled on to YouTube by Tommy Robinson lackeys means fuck all here.

7. ... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/educ ... 204635.stm (no comment /facepalm)

Are you really entering this to back up your case that there is an Islamising of Europe? Really?

8. The fact that 28% of UK Muslims want UK to become an Islamic state: http://my.telegraph.co.uk/danielpycock/ ... of-the-uk/

And 28% of 2.7% of 63+ million is what? You seem to have an utterly retarded idea of how the British legal system works.

9. The fact that Andy Choudary and people like him aren't in jail.

Tell you what, give me some actual fucking evidence of the "Islamising of Europe", and I won't laugh in your face.

Again.

Guilt by association.

Monkey see, monkey do?

 

[Visaki]

3. Blasphemy laws trying to limit criticism of Islam

Here in Finland we had a guilty verdict on a charge of demagoguery against a group for basicly the following blogpost (part of a larger post).

Islamic tradition says that Muhammad is the perfect man and all his actions were good and all true muslims should follow his example.
Islamic tradition also says that Muhammad married Aisha when she was six, and consumated the marriage when she was nine.
Therefore, logicly, islam is a religion that encourages to pedophilia.

The court here actually said in it's verdict that it doesn't matter if the statement if true because logic can't be used in religious matters if it insults adherents of that religion.

So yeah, I'm getting worried about the tolerentzia (free translation of "suvaitsevaisto", ie. "people who tolarate", it's a negative term) we have because that law I think was meant to curb violent hate speech and not protect people from getting offended.

 

[Asrahn]

All I can say is that I truly mourn my favorite icecream, that of which production was quickly halted when someone mistook an O for an I.

It was goddamn delicious. I'll miss you buddy. At least the original nogger is delicious too, albeit not with that particular licorice taste.

Also, immigration can always become a problem if the assimilation process fails and the population becomes segregated - or dare I say, "multicultural". Particularly in countries with a previously, more or less, culturally homogeneous population.

Try googling "malmo immigration", and you're on your way to see what's going on in my country.

 

[The Felonius Pope]

Also, immigration can always become a problem if the assimilation process fails and the population becomes segregated - or dare I say, "multicultural". Particularly in countries with a previously, more or less, culturally homogeneous population.

Keep in mind, my Swedish friend, that cultural homogeneity is not always a good thing.

 

[Asrahn]

Also, immigration can always become a problem if the assimilation process fails and the population becomes segregated - or dare I say, "multicultural". Particularly in countries with a previously, more or less, culturally homogeneous population.

Keep in mind, my Swedish friend, that cultural homogeneity is not always a good thing.

Granted. But a culturally homogeneous population would have left my icecream alone as well. :c

In all seriousness though, while I agree that diversity can be an important aspect for a society, in my eyes for the purpose of negating stagnation, multiculturalism has its own dangers - making an even clearer case of "us" and "them" being amongst them. Sweden has an immigration that quite frankly is out of control, and is actively suffering from it.

As my icecream was.

 

[The Felonius Pope]

In all seriousness though, while I agree that diversity can be an important aspect for a society, in my eyes for the purpose of negating stagnation, multiculturalism has its own dangers - making an even clearer case of "us" and "them" being amongst them. Sweden has an immigration that quite frankly is out of control, and is actively suffering from it.

As my icecream was.

I am deeply sorry about your ice cream. We have a big immigrant problem here in the US, so I really can empathize with you. Check out what happened in my home town:

 

[Asrahn]

In all seriousness though, while I agree that diversity can be an important aspect for a society, in my eyes for the purpose of negating stagnation, multiculturalism has its own dangers - making an even clearer case of "us" and "them" being amongst them. Sweden has an immigration that quite frankly is out of control, and is actively suffering from it.

As my icecream was.

I am deeply sorry about your ice cream. We have a big immigrant problem here in the US, so I really can empathize with you.

Thank you, for your sympathies. I used to name them all before I ate them.

The icecreams that is. Sort of made me think that cannibalism would be alright if people tasted licorice.

As for the thread's topic, I think the percieved threat is much larger than the actual threat is. There is no denying that there has been a large increase in non-scandinavian immigration over the past 20-30 years or so, and when looking at crime statistics, well, they don't look good in the immigration's favour - unless someone could come up with another variable that appears to be rising parallel with crime rates. Perhaps I should, in the light of the recent news that Sweden is number one, numero uno, #1 in the reported rapes league in europe, consider that perhaps all my fellows born in the 80's have a deplorable view on women and I should thus go outside and summarily execute them. I wish I had a firing squad, but I would have to find people either older or younger than me by at least a decade to make the possibility of me turning my gun on them afterwards less plausible.

Where was I going again? Oh yes, percieved threat. Our goverment is for the first time in a long, long time accompanied by a party with less-than-friendly views on immigration. In spite of almost 4 years of blackmarking, slandering, digging in backgrounds and exposure in media, over 4% of the Swedish population chose to openly vote on a party that wants to end the immigration stream from non-nordic countries. Something that, in today's day and age, where one isn't actually allowed to sing the national anthem unless at major sport events, and celebration of the national day is considered a passtime only practiced by full-fledged racists or nazis, is not hard to figure out where this anger and percieved threat comes from: the young.

The young, adolescent, or teens in this country are those that notice this the most. I personally went to a school which when my father went there, was one of the better schools in my municipality, while during my first "pre-starting" visit we were excluded from visiting the premise of the billiards room due to someone having found Khat (a drug containing large quantities of Cathinone, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathinone) under the billiards table, my second "pre-starting" visit, for viewing another section of the school, was hindered by us not being able to travel through the cafeteria - the police having squared the place off due to a knife-fight having taken place there.

During the 3 years there I lived through death-threats, having things thrown at me, hearing how my friends had been harassed or beaten, seeing how people from what we came to call the "corridor-program" playing football in the corridors - the way to score being to hit and "hopefully" break one of the clocks sticking out from the wall next to classroom doors - assuming they weren't talking to their friends and eyeing you while playing with their carving-knives that they acquired from having chosen the "building-program": these just to mention a few. Oh, and the most insufferable of all - cutting ahead of you in the food-line. Few things makes Swedes see as much red as that. :c

In its essence, the atmosphere of the school was "less than pleasant", and I carried the resentment, almost hate, with me out into the world once I finally graduated. Naturally, I was exposed to a world that wasn't as bad, and managed to put the old opinions behind me a long time ago. I still remember, when asking my teacher "Why the hell are they even here?", that he answered me, after hesitating a great deal "Well... the school gets so much money for taking care of them that it far outweighs whatever damage they cause".

My point with this is that Sweden is in a special position, a small country that has taken a great burden, one that it is not ready for. We bring up new generations that we force to go through with this, which spreads islamophobia further and further, make the borders more clear between "them" and "us", and do nothing but intensify the hatred.

This all under a goverment that smiles stiffly at whatever is told to them from below, a goverment that at all cost want to achieve the "multicultural society of Sweden".

 

[The Felonius Pope]

My point with this is that Sweden is in a special position, a small country that has taken a great burden, one that it is not ready for. We bring up new generations that we force to go through with this, which spreads islamophobia further and further, make the borders more clear between "them" and "us", and do nothing but intensify the hatred.

This all under a goverment that smiles stiffly at whatever is told to them from below, a goverment that at all cost want to achieve the "multicultural society of Sweden".

Damn. I'm sorry about what's happening over there. I only know 2 Muslims personally, so it really is hard for me to grasp what is going on. Here in America people cling to their own cultures, but they pretty much assimilate. Do you feel that the rest of Europe is going to become more Islamic? Or is that over exaggerating?

 

[Asrahn]

My point with this is that Sweden is in a special position, a small country that has taken a great burden, one that it is not ready for. We bring up new generations that we force to go through with this, which spreads islamophobia further and further, make the borders more clear between "them" and "us", and do nothing but intensify the hatred.

This all under a goverment that smiles stiffly at whatever is told to them from below, a goverment that at all cost want to achieve the "multicultural society of Sweden".

Damn. I'm sorry about what's happening over there. I only know 2 Muslims personally, so it really is hard for me to grasp what is going on. Here in America people cling to their own cultures, but they pretty much assimilate.

Thank you, again, for your sympathy. The issue with a truly multi-cultural society is just that: there is no assimilation. Multiculture per definition means a peaceful co-existence between different cultures, and requires a set of rules and regulations that would allow that. With Sweden's laws being secular in nature, it comes as no surprise that our steadily rising minority of muslims are pushing for Sharia law at every given opportunity, and openly have stated that more "people of the faith" should become involved in politics. An assimilation will happen either way, whether it will be secular ideals that triumph in the end remains to be seen.

 

[Asrahn]

Do you feel that the rest of Europe is going to become more Islamic? Or is that over exaggerating?

Last I updated myself on statistics we were being outbred by the minorities by far, and should the current immigration continue, Swedes will be a minority in their own country at around 2050. I doubt however that it will go that far, what with the current wave of a more right-winged and less immigration friendly politics sweeping over europe - which admittedly brings other worries to mind. Extremism either way is always problematic.

 

[The Felonius Pope]

That does seem to be a problem. Have you heard about what is happening over here? One of our presidential candidates wants to tear down the seperation between church and state.