Slavery in the bible discussion thread

[Sparhafoc]

[
Or they can admit to being silly little trolls if they like and rejoin the adults' table.

we can make a survey in this forum


who thinks Sparhafoc answered to Bernhards question clearly?

Feel free to show yourself a juvenile, LEROY.

It's not like anyone here was in doubt.

Again, I've said you can feel free to ask me specifics if you want - but wave your hands some more, maybe a passing moron will believe you.

 

[Sparhafoc]

I honestly don't understand your point.

a free creature can enslave and murder someone if wills it.


that is my reply to Sparhafoc when he provided 3 alternatives and I chose 3

And yet 3 quite clearly said that God is powerless to stop it.

But you say you agree with 3.

 

[Sparhafoc]

Point that remains: how the bible defined slavery is not the same as how society today defines slavery

Point that remains - there are many forms of slavery, and quite a few of them are present in the Bible.

For example, murdering entire villages, taking the prepubescent girls, and doling them out to the violent conquerors as spoils of war along with the other chattel.

Yes, that kind of slavery.

If the Bible doesn't recognize that as slavery, then so much for the Bible as a font of morality - we are more moral today than God was 2500 years ago, and God hasn't popped by to update the supposedly solitary guide to human moral behavior.

Do keep evading this, Bernie - it shows how little thought you've put into this thread or the question of slavery.

 

[Sparhafoc]

we can make a survey in this forum

who thinks Sparhafoc answered to Bernhards question clearly?

Can we also make this survey?

"Who thinks Leroy didn't run away from answering the criticism that was offered to him in the "Arguments for God's Existence" thread?"

There are a bunch of surveys we could run about LEROY, and they wouldn't spell out a very pleasant feeling among the members of this forum. But we wouldn't do that because... it's childish and pointless.... and really quite sad.

 

[MarsCydonia]

Point that remains: how the bible defined slavery is not the same as how society today defines slavery

Does this point remain? Didn't we go over this previously?

Let's see:

Anyway key point to remember is slavery of today.... is not the same as the slavery of the bible.

Slavery then: owning human beings as property
Slavery today: owning human beings as property.

Can everyone spot the difference that exists in Bernhard the slavery-apologist's head?

So I see Bernhard the slavery-apologist didnt follow my advice:
Lie better.

Slavery as defined by society today: owning human beings as property
Slavery as defined by the bible: owning human beings as property.

So I see Bernhard-the-slavery-apologist still didnt follow my advice:
Lie better.

 

[Sparhafoc]

Why is slavery wrong? Simple; it is unjustified limitation of another persons rights and freedoms. Fortunately most of the western world realized this in the 19th century in the latest, though some parts of the world not until the middle of the 20th. Bernhard has yet to civilize to that point it seems.

What's next? Defending genocide like William Lane Craig does? I mean if a Nazi would defend the actions of the 3rd Reich, including slavery and genocide, this way we'd laugh at his idiocy and immorality and wouldn't see the point in actually arguing with him. I see no reason why we should treat a slavery defending Christian any other way.

Yep, and of course Bernie ignored it.

 

[thenexttodie]

"God wants a world with free creatures, therefore he doesn't speak out against slavery, rape or theft or murder"?
But
"Wait, God wants a world with partially free creatures, therefore it's why he's fine with slavery and rape but not theft or murder"?

God apparently doesn't like it when his "free creatures" murder but when they enslave other human beings he doesn't seem to mind as much, doesn't he.

Is this the best slavery-apologists can come up with?

I honestly don't understand your point.

a free creature can enslave and murder someone if wills it. [/quote]
Sigh... Let's see if I can dumb one more thing down for Leroy.

So Leroy's excuse is "God did not forbid slavery because he wants free creatures", wasn't it? It is, as Leroy puts it, "the cost that God has to pay".
Let's compare:
"God did not forbid murder because he wants free creatures"
"God did not forbid theft because he wants free creatures"
"God did not forbid eating shellfish because he wants free creatures"
"God did not forbid wearing clothes of two fabrics because he wants free creatures"

If forbidding anything prevents having "free creatures" and god wants free creatures, then he shouldn't forbid anything. But out of the 4 examples above? God forbade everyone of them in the bible.

Is forbidding murder, theft, eating shellfish, etc. a violation of our freewill? Leroy must answer yes because if he answers no, then forbidding slavery isn't a violation of our free will either.

And all this above? Still doesn't mesh with what Leroy previously said. Leroy didn't say it was against god's wishes to forbid slavery, he said it was against god's power to forbid slavery.

Slavery-apologists sure do dance a lot.[/quote]

I could have sworn this was once a discussion on Why God Allowed Slavery. Now it is, Why Did God Not Forbid Slavery?

These are 2 different ideas.

I don't know if this is the case here, but it seems to me there are many times now where we are more interested in drawing a disscution out endlessly in order to obfuscate or catch someone in a verbal trap. This is what makes this forum suck.

Mods should be more active. Close more threads, force and moderate formal debate.

 

[MarsCydonia]

I could have sworn this was once a discussion on Why God Allowed Slavery. Now it is, Why Did God Not Forbid Slavery?

These are 2 different ideas.

I don't know if this is the case here, but it seems to me there are many times now where we are more interested in drawing a disscution out endlessly in order to obfuscate or catch someone in a verbal trap. This is what makes this forum suck.

Mods should be more active. Close more threads, force and moderate formal debate.

Perhaps you could ask your fellow slavery apologist Bernhard what was the point of him opening this discussion thread. If he opened the "Slavery in the bible discussion thread" then we are indeed discussing slavery in the bible.

As for the length? That's what happens when someone is committed to defending slavery in the bible but
- tries to do so by changing what is in it
- or tries to do by saying god is powerless
and the other people do not buy it.

 

[Sparhafoc]

I could have sworn this was once a discussion on Why God Allowed Slavery. Now it is, Why Did God Not Forbid Slavery?

These are 2 different ideas.

Not really - they're 2 sides of the same coin.

How could God have stopped slavery from happening? By forbidding it. Ergo, that God didn't forbid slavery would suggest it's allowed. One assumes that things are allowed which aren't expressly or implicitly forbidden. The 10 Commandments element is a big problem here. A very specific number - the number of fingers we have on our hands, the base of our mathematics - and yet no mention of slavery was made. There are some really wasted items there compared to the abject horror of owning another human being.

I don't know if this is the case here, but it seems to me there are many times now where we are more interested in drawing a disscution out endlessly in order to obfuscate or catch someone in a verbal trap. This is what makes this forum suck.

Mods should be more active. Close more threads, force and moderate formal debate.

I agree that there is a problem with dialogue here. I also personally agree that the only way to get discussion happening in some cases is for moderator intervention. This is the internet, the home of trolls, and the legitimacy of a discussion forum resides on how well discussion is progressing.

 

[leroy]

"God wants a world with free creatures, therefore he doesn't speak out against slavery, rape or theft or murder"?
But
"Wait, God wants a world with partially free creatures, therefore it's why he's fine with slavery and rape but not theft or murder"?

God apparently doesn't like it when his "free creatures" murder but when they enslave other human beings he doesn't seem to mind as much, doesn't he.

Is this the best slavery-apologists can come up with?

I honestly don't understand your point.

a free creature can enslave and murder someone if wills it.

Sigh... Let's see if I can dumb one more thing down for Leroy.

So Leroy's excuse is "God did not forbid slavery because he wants free creatures", wasn't it? It is, as Leroy puts it, "the cost that God has to pay".
Let's compare:
"God did not forbid murder because he wants free creatures"
"God did not forbid theft because he wants free creatures"
"God did not forbid eating shellfish because he wants free creatures"
"God did not forbid wearing clothes of two fabrics because he wants free creatures"

If forbidding anything prevents having "free creatures" and god wants free creatures, then he shouldn't forbid anything. But out of the 4 examples above? God forbade everyone of them in the bible.

Is forbidding murder, theft, eating shellfish, etc. a violation of our freewill? Leroy must answer yes because if he answers no, then forbidding slavery isn't a violation of our free will either.

And all this above? Still doesn't mesh with what Leroy previously said. Leroy didn't say it was against god's wishes to forbid slavery, he said it was against god's power to forbid slavery.

Slavery-apologists sure do dance a lot

I could have sworn this was once a discussion on Why God Allowed Slavery. Now it is, Why Did God Not Forbid Slavery?

These are 2 different ideas.

I don't know if this is the case here, but it seems to me there are many times now where we are more interested in drawing a disscution out endlessly in order to obfuscate or catch someone in a verbal trap. This is what makes this forum suck.

Mods should be more active. Close more threads, force and moderate formal debate

in fact the original question that I am responding is why didn't God stopped slavery

Sparhafoc So why does God do nothing to stop slavery? Neither in the Bible, nor in practice.

Either 1) God is fine with one human owning another human or 2) God, at least the one according to modern Christians, doesn't exist or 3) God does exist and is not ok with slavery, but is powerless to change it.

and the answer is 3, and it would also be 3 if you change slavery for murder, rape or anything else that we would consider evil.

 

[leroy]

I could have sworn this was once a discussion on Why God Allowed Slavery. Now it is, Why Did God Not Forbid Slavery?

These are 2 different ideas.

I don't know if this is the case here, but it seems to me there are many times now where we are more interested in drawing a disscution out endlessly in order to obfuscate or catch someone in a verbal trap. This is what makes this forum suck.

Mods should be more active. Close more threads, force and moderate formal debate.

Perhaps you could ask your fellow slavery apologist Bernhard what was the point of him opening this discussion thread. If he opened the "Slavery in the bible discussion thread" then we are indeed discussing slavery in the bible.

As for the length? That's what happens when someone is committed to defending slavery in the bible but
- tries to do so by changing what is in it
- or tries to do by saying god is powerless
and the other people do not buy it.

MarsCydonia, the ultimate answer is


"We don't know, "


we don't know why the bible regulate slavery rather than simply forbidding it. and sure this is a hard question



There are many explanations that a Christian might provide and it is likely that you will find conflicting and contradictory views among Christians. There is nothing wrong with that.


Maybe regulating slavery would produce less evil than forbidding it

Maybe slavery had a different connotation in the past

Maybe slaves where not innocent humans, but rather people that deserve a punishment (criminals)

Maybe those particular verses (or books) are not inspired


but granted Christians can provide an ultimate and infallible explanation for this problem, all we have are unsupported hypotheses

 

[MarsCydonia]

in fact the original question that I am responding is why didn't God stopped slavery

Sparhafoc So why does God do nothing to stop slavery? Neither in the Bible, nor in practice.

Either 1) God is fine with one human owning another human or 2) God, at least the one according to modern Christians, doesn't exist or 3) God does exist and is not ok with slavery, but is powerless to change it.

and the answer is 3, and it would also be 3 if you change slavery for murder, rape or anything else that we would consider evil.

Well, isn't today something?

I never had a christian tell me I'm more powerful than their god before :lol:

 

[MarsCydonia]

Well since the problem is about ownership then the simple answer is:

The bible does not define ownership like modern slave ownership is defined.

The bible did not allow, for example, kidnapping a person to then therefore have ownership

Ok, let's compare again:
Modern slave ownership defined: The ownership of a human being to be bought, sold or owned as property.
The bible slave ownership defined: The ownership of a human being to be bought, sold or owned as property.

So how many times has Bernhard-the-slave-apologist has tried this "it was defined differently back then" excuse? I think we're up to 3 times now or is it more?

 

[MarsCydonia]

MarsCydonia, the ultimate answer is

"We don't know, "

we don't know why the bible regulate slavery rather than simply forbidding it. and sure this is a hard question

Perhaps you really should talk with your fellow slavery apologist Bernhard, he's not even saying "I don't know why slavery is condoned", he's saying "slavery was defined differently" and he's been shown wrong a dozen times so far.

MarsCydonia, the ultimate answer is

"We don't know, "

we don't know why the bible regulate slavery rather than simply forbidding it. and sure this is a hard question

There are many explanations that a Christian might provide and it is likely that you will find conflicting and contradictory views among Christians. There is nothing wrong with that.

Maybe regulating slavery would produce less evil than forbidding it

Maybe slavery had a different connotation in the past

Maybe slaves where not innocent humans, but rather people that deserve a punishment (criminals)

Maybe those particular verses (or books) are not inspired

but granted Christians can provide an ultimate and infallible explanation for this problem, all we have are unsupported hypotheses

Right, that's the ultimate answers of christians whenever they encounter something they morally cannot justify:
"Why did god condone slavery?"
"We don't know"
"Why did god condone rape?"
"We don't know"

Yet, they never show the same humility when it comes to the origin of the universe or the origin of life, they simply "know".

"Why did god condone slavery? Or rape? Is god good?"
"Yup, he is, 100% good, just blindy trust us, we know"

 

[MarsCydonia]

Ok.... so can you give me a biblical example of slaves being bought and sold?

So how many admissions do we have from Bernhard-the-slavery-apologist that he does not know what the bible says about slavery? 12-15 times?

Shouldn't we expect someone opening a "Slavery in the bible discussion thread" to read the bible about what is says on slavery?

Exodus 21:2-6
Exodus 21:7-8
Leviticus 25:44-46

Maybe now Bernhard will pick up a bible and read it. Should we take bets on how he's going to twist those passages as they plainly talk about buying and selling people?

 

[MarsCydonia]

I love the answers when people believe what's asked of them is in the bible... so clear.. so concise...

Leviticus 25.... thank you

Now read it for yourself but the contract was always initiated by the slave. In other words the slave volunteered to be a slave.

Here... read more of the same chapter to understand ☺
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/answeringsceptics.wordpress.com/2013/10/21/answering-leviticus-25-44-46-the-bible-condones-slavery/amp/

And I love when slavery apologists try to spin their way out of what is plainly there.

So Bernhard-the-slavery-apologist demanded passages that showed people being bought and sold as property...

Several passages were provided, exact passages but that did not stop Bernhard-the-slavery-apologist from whining about having nothing clear or concise. Are to expect that Bernhard-the-slavery-apologist wouldn't have whined if the passages were copy-pasted instead?

Next, his "the contract was always initiated by the slave", how does stop them from being bought, sold and owned as property?

That's what Bernhard-the-slavery-apologist asked for and what he got. Does asserting "the contract was always initiated by the slave" make those passages disappear? I checked, they're still there.

And finally, "the contract was always initiated by the slave", what passage is that? Where is Bernhard-the-slavery-apologist's clarity and conciseness?

The fact is that this is plainly a lie. Everyone else here knows that some hebrew males volunteered themselves but the bible makes it clear that the rules were different for male hebrews than for everyone else.

We also have explicit passages of slaves forcefully entered into slavery: women sold by their fathers, children born into slavery, etc. So to think that foreign slaves, women and children were all volunteers, especially since they did not go free as male hebrews did, is just pure wishful thinking from Bernhard-the-slavery-apologist.

 

[he_who_is_nobody]

And LEROY shows he doesn't even bother reading to what he replies to! :lol:

at least I can provide direct answers.

:lol:

 

[Sparhafoc]

Well since the problem is about ownership then the simple answer is:

The bible does not define ownership like modern slave ownership is defined.

Then the Bible is sick as you are.

 

[Sparhafoc]

The bible did not allow, for example, kidnapping a person to then therefore have ownership

Useless, utterly useless.

You actually think you can present a coherent argument about slavery in the Bible with one sentence posts.

Pathetic beyond imagination.

 

[Sparhafoc]

and the answer is 3, and it would also be 3 if you change slavery for murder, rape or anything else that we would consider evil.

Ok. Fine.

So according to you, slavery is another Iron Chariot.

They don't make omnipotence like they used to.