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Shari'ah law makes sense

Breur9991

New Member
arg-fallbackName="Breur9991"/>
At least some aspects of it. Take the punishment of stoning for adultery as an example: it serves as a strong deterrence. It is a step taken to preserve the family structure, to ensure the correct upbringing of children through the receipt of all their rights (emotional and financial), it is a step take to prevent the bastardisation of the children of society who may be deprived of having both parents, it is a step taken to prevent the defamation of people involved, it is a step taken to secure the marital relationship from deceit and betrayal, it is a step taken to ensure loyalty, it is a step taken to confine sex to the bedroom and not publicise it, it is a step taken to prevent the occurrence of pregnancies where the father is not obliged to care for the mother and child and the mother may be left to deal with her own provisions, and so on and so forth.

I think it's very important to realise that shari'ah should be taken wholly as opposed to selectively. We have countries where a given crime is awarded the punishment in accordance to shari'ah...but are the requirements for the punishment met in accordance to it too? Is the person leading the trial doing so in the correct, Islamic manner? Are bribes being taken? Are richer people let off the hook? Are rulers living in palaces while the poor are starving? Etc. Etc.
As such, in the idyllic shari'ah society, such a law would prevent many family problems and societal problems (for the man, the woman and the child, also, one particular happening may eventually influence others to follow pursuit). But in a modern day country, is it as straightforward? Added to the complexity may be factors such as porn, nudity and obscenity, as well as lifestyle factors and how easy it generally is to flirt with the opposite sex. As such, imho things would need to be taken step by step - the first of which may be to remove nudity from public view; the last of which would be the prescribing of the hadd law; between these being a number of stages working towards eliminating adultery. For example, the banning of alcohol was not sudden - rather it was a process implemented by divine injunction in steps.
 
arg-fallbackName="SpecialFrog"/>
Surely since divorce is allowed in Islam then harsh penalties for adultery are no guarantee that all children of married couples will have their family structures preserved. So given that marriages can break up anyway, having a death penalty for adultery simply increases the number of cases where not only will children not be living with both parents but both parents won't even be living.

I fail to see how this is any kind of improvement for children.

This doesn't even get into the issues of abusive relationships and the imbalance between men and women's rights under Sharia law (at least all under all implementations with which I am familiar).

Also, can you cite an example of an 'idyllic shari'ah society' and explain by what measure it can be considered 'idyllic'?
 
arg-fallbackName="Inferno"/>
Your premise is wrong: No amount of violence has ever been shown to be a deterrent of any kind.
 
arg-fallbackName="Mugnuts"/>
A deterrence of violence in the family?

We had a few years ago a father, his son and wife drown his ex and two daughters because they 'dishonored' the family for not wearing hijabs, talking to boys via text, and adopting a western lifestyle. The youngest was 13 years old.

Their 'crimes' were adapting to living in the modern age in a western part of the world. Even though they were divorced, apparently her life was still his property. His daughters were not worthy to live any further because they were teenagers who listened to the rationality of their mother rather than the psychotic belief system of their father.

Yeah. Shari'ah law makes so much sense. [sarcasm]It's such a pity that the murderers are rotting in jail. They had so much to give to our society.[/sarcasm] :roll:
 
arg-fallbackName="sigen8"/>
Mugnuts said:
A deterrence of violence in the family?

We had a few years ago a father, his son and wife drown his ex and two daughters because they 'dishonored' the family for not wearing hijabs, talking to boys via text, and adopting a western lifestyle. The youngest was 13 years old.

Their 'crimes' were adapting to living in the modern age in a western part of the world. Even though they were divorced, apparently her life was still his property. His daughters were not worthy to live any further because they were teenagers who listened to the rationality of their mother rather than the psychotic belief system of their father.

Yeah. Shari'ah law makes so much sense. [sarcasm]It's such a pity that the murderers are rotting in jail. They had so much to give to our society.[/sarcasm] :roll:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shafia_family_murders

Yeah, I remember that case clearly.

I find it funny that anyone can think the Shari'ah law can prevent any violence at all, violence has always caused more violence. And again, even violent punishment never been successful. The only thing the Shari'ah law can instill is fear, and we all know that it doesn't prevents violence.
 
arg-fallbackName="australopithecus"/>
Breur9991 said:
At least some aspects of it. Take the punishment of stoning for adultery as an example: it serves as a strong deterrence. It is a step taken to preserve the family structure, to ensure the correct upbringing of children through the receipt of all their rights (emotional and financial), it is a step take to prevent the bastardisation of the children of society who may be deprived of having both parents, it is a step taken to prevent the defamation of people involved, it is a step taken to secure the marital relationship from deceit and betrayal, it is a step taken to ensure loyalty, it is a step taken to confine sex to the bedroom and not publicise it, it is a step taken to prevent the occurrence of pregnancies where the father is not obliged to care for the mother and child and the mother may be left to deal with her own provisions, and so on and so forth.

None of these things are more important than a human life, so no, it makes no sense. It's barbaric horseshit. The end.
 
arg-fallbackName="Mugnuts"/>
It just goes to show that there are no moral absolutes and there are always going to be subjective values involved in what deems something moral. As time goes on, life changes. Perspectives are always going to be different. Looking on the past is fairly easy to do and make judgments based on the times, yet looking towards the future isn't so clear cut.

Writing down laws in stone is the biggest mistake humans have done and try to keep doing, but I'm not worried about it too much. It's not hard to see the pattern tends to move towards humanism, and secularization of crimes and punishments based on reality and evidence. Taking steps backwards to barbaric times will only mean we will have to keep repeating old mistakes.
 
arg-fallbackName="sick_jesus"/>
Breur9991 said:
At least some aspects of it. Take the punishment of stoning for adultery as an example: it serves as a strong deterrence. It is a step taken to preserve the family structure, to ensure the correct upbringing of children through the receipt of all their rights (emotional and financial), blah blah blah

As such, in the idyllic shari'ah society, such a law would prevent many family problems and societal problems.. blah blah blah.....

Added to the complexity may be factors such as porn, nudity and obscenity, as well as lifestyle factors and how easy it generally is to flirt with the opposite sex... blah blah blah.


I'm glad you've picked the right subject: the one that best shows up the most villainous, distasteful and cruel nature of sharia law and the one which works more against a happy family unit than any other. [Loud applause]

Firstly you are taking it for granted that adultery is a bad thing. It no doubt is if you're the one who feels betrayed, all the while disregarding what a neglectful nasty bastard you were and that it is very possibly your own fault that your partner needed to get their kicks some place else. Either that or the wife has been forced into a marriage, forced to "take it from the front or the back (but not in the anus*)" from someone she despises just the look of.

But the real interesting thing here is: why is such a harsh punishment needed against adultery?

Answer: because with many arranged marriages, or marriages under sharia law, they fall into domestic hell, often with violence ( physical or mental or both) involved. The only way to keep such marriages together is to have such severe penalties against adultery that the unhappy partner would rather commit suicide out of sheer misery than get their needs from someone else and be publicly slaughtered. Yes, there is an option of divorce, but that is all but impossible if you're female. (see anecdote*)

So the sharia way is in many cases only a very superficial image of a happy family unit. In reality many marriages are glued together only by the fear of public death if one or the other strays. That is no good place for a child to be brought up into: warring parents who obviously despise each other but who are condemned to the hell of each others company because of cruel and out-dated religious laws... Constant fighting and violence.... Moody silence and bad tempers... Not a single shred of love or affection shown between the parents. The child and the family are better off living apart with constant access rather than growing up into that poverty of affection

IF SHARIA LAW or THE ISLAMIC MODEL REALLY MADE FOR A HAPPY, IDYLLIC FAMILY then IT'D NOT NEED SUCH A STRONG DETERRENT AGAINST ADULTERY.

Adultery has NOTHING to do with pornography; NOTHING to do with dress; NOTHING to do with alcohol; NOTHING to do with exposed skin. It has EVERYTHING to do with HAPPINESS & FULFILMENT and if you need such a severe law against adultery it is because it's understood that under such a system marital unhappiness is so rife that adultery would be rampant without the fear of a public death to deter it.

People stray because they are unhappy and unfulfilled. Maybe we should stone the husband for neglect whenever his wife strays!

Also, what kind of a vile, bitter and vengeful person would want to see their wife (someone they purport to love) and their children's' mother stoned to death in public? Even if she 'cheated' how sadistic and evil is a love that can so quickly turn to wanting a violent and murderous revenge exacted upon that person? How selfish and cruel that you would want your children deprived of a mother because your pride got wounded! It's sick in every way you look at it.

*anecdote (this is true):

Turkish wife: In Turkey, in a religious marriage, anal sex is valid grounds for divorce.
Sick Jesus : Oh, that's strange.... In England it's valid grounds for marriage!


* *For ease of phrase I've often stuck to the wife being subject to such punishment. In theory, according to sharia law, a man can also be stoned to death for adultery ( though this rarely happens). Men have the luxury of being able to take multiple wives and so they've not such a desperate need to commit adultery. This law affects mostly women.
 
arg-fallbackName="Gnug215"/>
Wow, how did this absolute crap fly right past me?

To the OP, who I doubt is still here: No.
 
arg-fallbackName="Master_Ghost_Knight"/>
No, no, no, Hell fucking No!
Who the fuck do you think you are for thinking that you can have someone else killed in such a sadistic fashion because someone had sex with some one else? Even if it is your wife! Who the fuck do you think you are to own her is a such a way that you can brutally kill her in such a barbaric way. Not even the most psychotic serial killer of children condemned to the death penalty are treated with such cruelty.

Your idea of promoting "family values", and to avoid children from being deprived of both parent is to, kill the fucking parents?
Sure if my wife were to betray me, I would feel wronged, my trust violated, I wouldn't want to see her again , it would certain put a strain on any relationship. But I wouldn't fucking killer!
What the hell is wrong with you?

Sorry, we don't want your barbaric notions of law and morality. You are a bronze age scumbag who has had the privileged of living with the benefits of a far more advanced society, speaking tripe, and asking other people to follow you back into the caves.
You can grab your sharia a take it into a butt-hole country full of people that think just you do, and fucking stay there.
You are not welcome, we don't want you. My ancestor fought against this sort of barbaric notion of "justice", and you can bet I would fight tooth and nail, I would kill if necessary, before this system of law would ever be implemented in the society I live in.
There is nothing to debate here. There is no contest or doubt about the stupidity, immorality, cruelty and injustice of sharia.
And you should be ashamed for even suggesting it.
 
arg-fallbackName="sick_jesus"/>
Master_Ghost_Knight said:
No, no, no, Hell fucking No!
Who the fuck do you think you are for thinking that you can have someone else killed in such a sadistic fashion because someone had sex with some one else? Even if it is your wife! Who the fuck do you think you are to own her is a such a way that you can brutally kill her in such a barbaric way. Not even the most psychotic serial killer of children condemned to the death penalty are treated with such cruelty.

Your idea of promoting "family values", and to avoid children from being deprived of both parent is to, kill the fucking parents?
Sure if my wife were to betray me, I would feel wronged, my trust violated, I wouldn't want to see her again , it would certain put a strain on any relationship. But I wouldn't fucking killer!
What the hell is wrong with you?

Sorry, we don't want your barbaric notions of law and morality. You are a bronze age scumbag who has had the privileged of living with the benefits of a far more advanced society, speaking tripe, and asking other people to follow you back into the caves.
You can grab your sharia a take it into a butt-hole country full of people that think just you do, and fucking stay there.
You are not welcome, we don't want you. My ancestor fought against this sort of barbaric notion of "justice", and you can bet I would fight tooth and nail, I would kill if necessary, before this system of law would ever be implemented in the society I live in.
There is nothing to debate here. There is no contest or doubt about the stupidity, immorality, cruelty and injustice of sharia.
And you should be ashamed for even suggesting it.

Hear, hear! That's what I wanted to say too.
 
arg-fallbackName="sick_jesus"/>
Collecemall said:
Winning hearts and minds one stone throw at a time. God is good eh?

Such people are one of the greatest weapons atheism has. Religion can have them... they deserve each other. They'd be fucking useless atheists anyway!
 
arg-fallbackName="abelcainsbrother"/>
I would rather die than live under Sharia law because I have everlasting life from Jesus Christ who rose from the dead.There is nothing that is appealing about Islamic society and the only reason the west is so messed up is because of indoctrination and propaganda that has led to people turning their back on Jesus.Satan is a liar and deciever and has decieved a lot of people that are turning their back on Jesus at the same time it is just bible prophecy being fulfilled.I don't know how Muslims think they can threaten a Christian with death for not believing in a false god.

We will not be lost!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iCHxTwIhq-c
 
arg-fallbackName="tuxbox"/>
abelcainsbrother said:
I would rather die than live under Sharia law because I have everlasting life from Jesus Christ who rose from the dead.There is nothing that is appealing about Islamic society and the only reason the west is so messed up is because of indoctrination and propaganda that has led to people turning their back on Jesus.Satan is a liar and deciever and has decieved a lot of people that are turning their back on Jesus at the same time it is just bible prophecy being fulfilled.I don't know how Muslims think they can threaten a Christian with death for not believing in a false god.

I would rather die as well. Screw Shari'ah Law!
 
arg-fallbackName="Mugnuts"/>
abelcainsbrother said:
I don't know how Muslims think they can threaten a Christian with death for not believing in a false god.

Could you please clarify the difference between death threats and threats of eternal damnation after you die?



BTW, it's the same god.
 
arg-fallbackName="Visaki"/>
Mugnuts said:
abelcainsbrother said:
I don't know how Muslims think they can threaten a Christian with death for not believing in a false god.

Could you please clarify the difference between death threats and threats of eternal damnation after you die?

BTW, it's the same god.
For me as an atheist the first one can be a real threat and the second one is always imaginary. For the theist the first one is a real threat, the second one is a real threat but the theist is too lazy to actually back up his threat, so he delegates the actual work to his god.

About sharia law I have no problem saying that parts of it (I probably know about 2% of what sharia law includes) might be usable in a modern secular country. This is the same to all laws, if it can rationally be concluded to be a good law we can use it whatever the source.
 
arg-fallbackName="abelcainsbrother"/>
Mugnuts said:
abelcainsbrother said:
I don't know how Muslims think they can threaten a Christian with death for not believing in a false god.

Could you please clarify the difference between death threats and threats of eternal damnation after you die?



BTW, it's the same god.
No,because you have your mind made up.I don't think like you do it does not make sense to me to believe in a God that let's people get away with sin,if you think sin is not a big deal then that is your opinion.You are rejecting Jesus who can save you then getting mad at the thought of hell.You can not blame God for your decision.
 
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