Sex work

[ImprobableJoe]

Then how do you suggest we solve this issue?

With magic... that's what every other position on this issue seems to depend on... :lol:

 

[Moky]

:roll:

 

[ImprobableJoe]

:roll:

Yeah, that's my feeling reading everyone else's posts. Join the club buddy.

 

[Moky]

The difference is, we actually gave ideas to solve the issue.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

The difference is, we actually gave ideas to solve the issue.

No, you gave ideas that you hope fervently will solve the issue. I don't doubt your sincerity a bit. It is the effectiveness that I question.

 

[Moky]

It's better than hiding it, was my point. Hiding it just makes it worse because nothing is regulated and no one can go anywhere for help.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

It's better than hiding it, was my point. Hiding it just makes it worse because nothing is regulated and no one can go anywhere for help.

Yes, but "exposing" it doesn't magically make it OK.

 

[Moky]

And hiding it won't fix it either. What's your idea to fix this? I asked you several times and I want a real answer, just to satisfy my curiousity.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

And hiding it won't fix it either. What's your idea to fix this? I asked you several times and I want a real answer, just to satisfy my curiousity.

I don't have a perfect answer... that was the point of my earlier declaration of "devil's advocate."

My position on this is sort of like my atheism: I don't make a claim, but I feel comfortable rejecting your claim.

I don't think throwing people in jail for prostitution is a good answer, but I also don't thing elimination of the jail time automatically solves any of the other problems.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Sort of related...


http://www.jpgmag.com/stories/11918

 

[You]

[quote:"You"]
What is there to prevent illegalized prostitution descending into sexual slavery?[\quote]Nothing... do you have a point?

Assuming the answer to the original question is also "Nothing", what then is the relevance to a discussion about decriminalization?

We can skip the "bog" but the reality is that sex-for-pay isn't an ideal situation, and won't be perfected by making it legal OR illegal.

That's a strawman. I don't see anyone here, least of all me, arguing that decriminalizing prostitution (or drug use) will render the situation "perfect", nor anything close to it. It will just be "better". And when is the impossibility of perfection ever a good reason not to make something better?

 

[You]

I don't have a perfect answer... that was the point of my earlier declaration of "devil's advocate."

I appreciate your position Joe. And your client. :twisted:

I don't think throwing people in jail for prostitution is a good answer, but I also don't thing elimination of the jail time automatically solves any of the other problems.

But it's not just the jail time that is the problem. It's all of the other bad shit that such prohibition brings with it. Its decriminalized status in Nevada doesn't make prostitution unique there, but it sure improves it as a whole when compared to other places where it isn't legal.

Besides, in those cases where prostitution is 'the only option', where a person is trapped into exploitation, the prostitution is a circumstance, a symptom, of a much graver problem.

 

[WolfAU]

Ozymandyus: "Yes, sex has a lot of different meanings to different people. But it is not just like selling any other labor - There is a real difference between doing construction work and allowing people to stick their body parts into you. Or am I just old fashioned?"

My argument is 'only if the prostitute and/or the client see it as different', and then issues of 'different how?' arise. Alot of women completely devalue sex, some just have frequent one night stands, some go on to use sex as a tool/weapon to achieve their goals.

"The meaning [of sex] is built into our brains and bodies..." I disagree that it is so innate (and if thats the case, why do so many people disagree on its meaning?), though some of my studies into sexual abuse (particularly of young children) would support that we have some sense of sexuality even if we have not yet learnt about the specifics of sex. Considering all societies diverge from true human nature you can argue what you will, but my point before as that I don't see how anyone can say one is more 'right' in terms of valuing sex as somewhat 'sacred' versus a very casual attitude towards it. I don't consider the former 'old fashioned' or if I did I would have to consider myself old fashioned in the process (as I've said in the Sex thread, I avoid one night stands).

The main reasons for sexual stigma are...
1. Some kind of cultural obsession with a woman's virginity.
2. The attitude that a sexually lustful woman will cheat on her husband, thus meaning he cannot know if his children are his, and if discovered he will be a 'cuckhold' (basically a laughingstock).
3. As such for a woman to get the best husband, she should appear in all her actions to have absolutely no interest in sex, but should her husband want her she 'does her duty by him'.
4. The issue that sex makes children, with reliable contraception being a very recent discovery. plus STDs have been in the human population since the start of recorded history.

imo the reason prostitution has been pushed under the carpet for most of 'Western' history is wanting to discourage promiscuity (ie to make an example of women who don't do what society expects of them, ie being chaste and marrying young).

"No, you gave ideas that you hope fervently will solve the issue. I don't doubt your sincerity a bit. It is the effectiveness that I question. "

Again, we've stated tremendous benefits to both clients and workers that would be gained (clients have reduced chance of STDs and other related risks like violence of theft, workers also get reduced chance of STDs, reduced chance of violence by clients or people like pimps), so apart from arguing this 'doesn't end exploitation', though it would definately reduce it, and possible issues of morality... I really fail to see your argument. Its also not random hope as we are seeing what we predict will happen in America in other countries like Australia, Denmark etc. Hell, I don't know the specifics but you could compare how things are in Nevada.

 

[Jotto999]

ImprobableJoe, since it was you that brought up the point, could you please go more in-depth on how prostitution does not have all parties consenting (in first-world countries like America, because of course in places like Taiwan there isn't much consent in the prostitution industry).

I think it would be an important point for this discussion, since I brought up the point that all parties consenting is how it can be differentiated from other things like murder and rape where all parties are not consenting.

 

[WolfAU]

Well even in America there would be some people forced into it, either by circumstance (ie poor and desperate), or just generally forced (ie illegal immagrants, human trafficker's, completely immoral people in the woman's life like step dads etc). However my argument is that legalizing it reduces these, as registered brothels can and would do their best to make sure they weren't hiring women who were forced/pressured into it.

 

[Moky]

That point was made several times, the only issue is that a few people like to go in circles.

 

[RestrictedAccess]

In general I'm in favor of it being legal as I think it greatly increases protection of both the workers (protection from violence etc) and clients, it also I think makes STDs easier to detect, track and contain, as well as I think reduces the psychological harm of the work.
?

In the states I know it's currently legal in most of Nevada. Prostitution should be legalized on the condition that it can be regulated for obvious health and safety risks. It's safer for the clients, and it's safer for the prostitutes.

 

[Photolysis]

Yes, but "exposing" it doesn't magically make it OK.

Legalising it isn't a magic solution, but I don't think anyone was seriously stating that it was, though the effects of it being legalised (or other actions that should also be taken at the same time) were implied, rather than explicitly stated in some cases.

Making it legal means that other actions can be taken that do help the problem. If you allow brothels to operate legally for example, you can regulate it much better, and this does help, such as by reducing STD transmission and reducing the risk of violence.

Similarly with drugs, making them legal on their own does almost nothing. But if you then start regulate it and take action, such as by only allowing purified products to be sold, and ensuring reasonable prices (which allowing them to be legally manufactured and sold would help with), you can begin to tackle the problems caused.

As for people being forced in to prostitution via slavery, legalisation and regulation can help there. Being forced in to it due to a lack of money is more tricky (though tackling drugs as well would help since many are effectively forced in to prostitution to fund an expensive drug habit), but that would have to be tackled by other means; you basically have to tackle the causes of poverty.

 

[WolfAU]

Re Restricted Access: There are several reasons I am in favour of a strong push for legalising sex work, one of the main reasons is definately wanting to dramatically reduce, if not eradicate many STDs from the west, legalising (and thus being able to track and enforce compulsary screening) is a big step towards that.

I'd even go so far as to support some system for screening individuals over 18 (ie you have a card indicating you've been screened recently for STDs, people who meet up for one night stands check each others cards etc), this would cut down on transmission, and plausable they could be eradicated from the West in 5-10 years just by doing this.

Also a somewhat unrelated note, the issue of women selling their virginity on places like ebay. Is it ok (ie socially healthy), ie should a woman place greater emotional value on her first time than to do that? Thoughts, comments.

 

[RestrictedAccess]

Re Restricted Access: There are several reasons I am in favour of a strong push for legalising sex work, one of the main reasons is definately wanting to dramatically reduce, if not eradicate many STDs from the west, legalising (and thus being able to track and enforce compulsary screening) is a big step towards that.

I'd even go so far as to support some system for screening individuals over 18 (ie you have a card indicating you've been screened recently for STDs, people who meet up for one night stands check each others cards etc), this would cut down on transmission, and plausable they could be eradicated from the West in 5-10 years just by doing this.

Also a somewhat unrelated note, the issue of women selling their virginity on places like ebay. Is it ok (ie socially healthy), ie should a woman place greater emotional value on her first time than to do that? Thoughts, comments.

I wouldn't support an ID card to indicate that you've been tested. Who will foot the bill, how much will the tax burden be? We can't force people to show their cards - most will probably leave it at home, especially if they have STD's, so it becomes an unnecessary tax burden. I'm fine with an honor system.

As for the rest - after 18 a woman can do what the heck she wants with her lady places. If it helps her economically to sell her cherry, then go for it. Your first time is rarely ever a good time, so you might as well make a profit off of it. I don't see the need for emotional value in the first time.