Sex work

[Aught3]

Oh, okay I wondered if it was the market thing before you made that post. Well, unfortunately that is the society we live in - anything* can be bought if you have enough money. As long as we base our society on these transactions there will be people who are willing and able to purchase sex and people willing to sell. If prostitution is going to happen no matter what, before we make it illegal, we should decide whether it is really harmful for society to allow prostitution to go on in a controlled, safe, and regulated way. I'm certainly not for prostitutes on the street corners, but in a brothel where everyone is safe, clean, and regulated is a much better way to handle these transactions than in a back alley.

The alternative is to put everyone in jail Why, just because some guy was desperate for sex and some girl desperate for money? Surely there is a better way to deal with this. I agree that it is tragic that people have to work boring, dirty, dangerous, and deadly jobs just to make enough money to survive - but this is the reality of our society and a small, non-harmful change that deals with some of the problems is better than attempting a complete overhaul of human nature. Oddly, I think the reasons I agree with legalising prostitution are the same reasons you disagree



*Okay, not literally.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

What is there to prevent legalized prostitution descending into sexual slavery? Neither Communism nor Capitalism haseliminated slavery or indentured servitude that is de facto slavery. Why would legalizing prostitution magically eliminate exploitation, when we know that exploitation exists all over, with legal sanction? That;s like saying that heroin would be less addictive if it were made legal. The real problems don't go away when you eliminate the jail time.

 

[Aught3]

It would be like making heroin available on prescription. The amount given would be controlled and the addict could be kept track of and looked after if there were serious side effects. Exploitation (or use) wouldn't be eliminated but controlled and the worst parts done away with.

So your basic argument is: we have what amounts to wage slavery, which can't be changed, but sexual wage slavery is taking it too far. In order to prevent this outcome we must ban all prostitution whether the person is happy with the arrangement or not. How is this going to magically eliminate sexual slavery? There will be exploitation both before and after legalisation - the difference will be with legalised prostitution the exploitation will be more controlled, the safety for the people involved will increase, and those that choose this line of work will be free to do so.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

It would be like making heroin available on prescription. The amount given would be controlled and the addict could be kept track of and looked after if there were serious side effects. Exploitation (or use) wouldn't be eliminated but controlled and the worst parts done away with.

Already done, and there are tons of addicts... Rush Limbaugh, for example.

So your basic argument is: we have what amounts to wage slavery, which can't be changed, but sexual wage slavery is taking it too far. In order to prevent this outcome we must ban all prostitution whether the person is happy with the arrangement or not. How is this going to magically eliminate sexual slavery? There will be exploitation both before and after legalisation - the difference will be with legalised prostitution the exploitation will be more controlled, the safety for the people involved will increase, and those that choose this line of work will be free to do so.

You have my basic argument wrong. Back up, and try again. And look at what you are saying, and also the things you are ignoring... like the entire illusion of choice.

 

[Aught3]

I'm not ignoring the illusion of choice, check my post at the top of this page. However, some prostitutes do say that they are happy with their work. Maybe they're lying to themselves or it's the lure of the money but there are other jobs that they could work in (although they might not earn as much). Some are exploited in what amount to wage slavery, yes, but not all.

You have my basic argument wrong. Back up, and try again.

If you don't have a problem with the morality and you don't have a problem with sex being in the marketplace then I don't know what you are arguing. Is it that if prostitution is legalised we will get more of it?

 

[Jotto999]

Nope. You fail again. I'll ignore your "drugs should be legal" nonsense, because it is the sort of crap that fails every time, but winds up swamping everyone involved in about 9 feet of crap, on all sides.

However, it is not anywhere nearly true that everyone involved in prosititution is consenting. Much of the world of prostitution involves a situation one step away from slavery. Further, when drugs are involved "consent" goes out the window. If someone is high, they are generally seen as legally unfit to give consent.

I'll ignore your "drugs should be legal" nonsense, because it is the sort of crap that fails every time, but winds up swamping everyone involved in about 9 feet of crap, on all sides.

Hmm, you seem to be implying that the pro-legalization of drugs argument is terribly weak bullcrap. If that was true you could probably demolish it in a post or two. But you didn't, looks like in that thread Shanedk held it up to your scrutiny. I don't see that thread ending with him being argumentatively beat by you - quite the opposite.

However, it is not anywhere nearly true that everyone involved in prosititution is consenting. Much of the world of prostitution involves a situation one step away from slavery.

In places like Taiwan, I would agree with that. But not in a place like America (I assume you live there). There are places where prostitutes are more like slaves and they don't get much choice. But really, is it the same in first-world countries? If it is, could you please go more in-depth on that?

Further, when drugs are involved "consent" goes out the window. If someone is high, they are generally seen as legally unfit to give consent

Well yeah, AFTER taking the drugs and becoming high, sure. BEFORE they took the drug, they were definitely legally fit to give consent. In fact, right up until the point where they've taken in the drug and it's in their bloodstream they are probably legally fit for consent. Only when they are high, but that's after all of their decision making anyways.

Nope. You fail again.

I think this is roughly synonymous with "I can't just prove someone wrong. I need to try and insult them, because I think it reinforces my point somehow/I feel insecure/I don't know how to not seem like an ass". I am entirely guessing though.

 

[Netheralian]

What is there to prevent legalized prostitution descending into sexual slavery?

By that logic, what is to prevent legalised house cleaners descending into personal slaves?

Why would legalizing prostitution magically eliminate exploitation, when we know that exploitation exists all over, with legal sanction?

No one is saying that it will eliminate exploitation - but are you suggesting that there is more exploitation under these systems or less? I would think any improvement is good.

That;s like saying that heroin would be less addictive if it were made legal. The real problems don't go away when you eliminate the jail time.

Thats kind of naive isn't it? The problems don't go away, no. But it does get it out in the open more where the problems can be addressed.

 

[WolfAU]

ImprobableJoe: "Just like murder, rape, and drug dealing! We should therefore legalize those things too!"
Such an unfair comparison I don't know where to begin... putting aside drugs as I am in favour of legalising most of them (and yes, this would stop their underground use), things like rape, by most people's definition is a non-consentual act of sexual agression/dominance, which usually causes serious emotional (and often physical) harm. This is compared to sex work... which over time we'll get a hold on STDs (and likely faster if we can implement strict control over sex work, ie forced testing) and effective contraception then it is simply a consentual act of exchanging sexual services for money, which I find no inherant immorality in.

I also find if it is illegal, that there is this kind of cloak and dagger byproduct, where there is an unspoke understanding between a couple exchanging something of financial value in exchange for sex (ie I know a guy who had a backpacker stay with him for two weeks, during this time they had a sexual relationship... quite likely the two were connected), as sex being put on the table as a bartering card is one of women's oldest tricks ever, and while I don't think it should be over encouraged, its never going to go away... it just changes whats being exchanged (ie room and board or jewelry rather than cash).

"Again, devil's advocate: what makes you think no one is getting hurt? Because it is easier to pretend that everyone is consenting, so that you can pretend to be non-judgmental, and walk around feeling superior"

Hurt how? Physically? If sex occurs in brothels with security, physical violence against the prostitutes is dropped dramatically, and some of the more high class brothels may do background checks. Emotionally, plenty of prostitutes are emotionally jaded before they become prostitutes and making it legal I think reduces the emotional stigma associated (ie they feel less bad about it).

"Because when a wife is abused by her husband" Plenty do, and many who don't choose not to for complex reasons, its an unfair analogy. Anyway, alot of brothels have policies on things like that.

Anyway, explain to me what the social harm is of a well legislated sex industry? Men using prostitutes while in relationships isn't really novel as they'd do the same by picking up at a bar. STDs are probably less likely in a brothel with strict rules (ie making both clients and workers take regular tests), compared to many women I know who are essentially sluts (ie 15+ partners) who have never been tested, and then theres issues of pregnancy, solved by redundant use of contraception.

Our dislike of prostitution simply comes from the Wests shared Christian routes, who's logic is as follows.
1. Men want sex, this is useful.
2. Tell men the only way for them to have sex is to marry.
3. If they marry, they'll have lots of kids who they raise etc.

Point 3 is important, as societies basically wrote off single mothers as both 'doomed to fail' and that their children would learn no virtue or discipline since they had no father, not to mention no paternal ancestry... plus, how dare the bitch have a sex drive, doesn't she know sex is solely for procreation?! Thats generally where I think alot of our objection comes from.

Keeping it illegal (or making it illegal down under) will not change whether or not their are sex workers, so any emotional issues regarding the workers are kind of mute... but generally it reduces forms of emotional abuse (ie threats, humiliating treatment), physical abuse etc. In general I would be in favour of more psychological counselling and attention for sex work, with I think alot of the higher class brothels checking this out for new employee's, but beyond that, alot of people (particularly those with sucky jobs) have baggage, and forced prosistution exists in some form in most western countries... if anything I think legalising consentual prostitution probably helps focus on cracking down on the non-consentual stuff.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I'm not ignoring the illusion of choice, check my post at the top of this page. However, some prostitutes do say that they are happy with their work. Maybe they're lying to themselves or it's the lure of the money but there are other jobs that they could work in (although they might not earn as much). Some are exploited in what amount to wage slavery, yes, but not all.

If you don't have a problem with the morality and you don't have a problem with sex being in the marketplace then I don't know what you are arguing. Is it that if prostitution is legalised we will get more of it?

I'm just arguing that legalization doesn't actually fix any of the problems, besides the going to jail part. Remember, I'm not actually against legalization, I just don't agree that it makes things any less exploitative.

Oh, and if anyone here thinks for a minute that having sex for money is just like cleaning houses for money, you either really don't know ANYTHING about sex, or you care WAY TOO MUCH about house cleaning. :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll: :x :lol: :lol:

 

[WolfAU]

My attitude is that sex has no real emotional weighting inherant in the act... to some people it is just a pleasurable act, to others it is the most intimate act imaginable, with many people having a variety of different experiences in their life depending on their partner. You can draw analogies to other acts like hugging and kissing (can be both very intimate, or very casual and platonic, depending on the culture and context).

Since I find no real reason to declare that one attitude to sex is more 'right' than another (ie some people get their intimacy in a relationship from other acts), I don't see any reason to dictate a certain philosophy in regards to sex.

"I'm just arguing that legalization doesn't actually fix any of the problems, besides the going to jail part." What problems exactly? And I feel it does make the act less exploitative, if it is made to me more respectable and people improve their work environment (ie say a brothel makes it against the rules for a client to degrade or ridicule the prostitute, this would reduce alot of the self hating associated with the job).

Also I was talking about stripping with several people, all men seemed to have the attitude that it was demeaning both to the woman and to women everywhere on principle... while a female there responded 'if a hot woman can extract 200 bucks in tips from one guy for just for batting her eyes and showing a bit of flesh... who's exploiting who?' I think that nicely summarizes my thoughts on it.

I agree that no woman should be forced into it by circumstance (ie their is no alternative in terms of work), but in some ways this is an unrelated issue to its legality. Helping to reduce the number of women forced into it is best addressed by reducing poverty and improving female work opportunities, and if it is illegal and these matters are not resolved then more subtle situations arise (ie poor women entering disadvantageous 'relationships' with richer men, where he provides upkeep in exchange for sex), plus things like women becoming models or even being forced to exchange sexual favours for jobs.

Plus, a friend of mine growing up was a full on exhibitionist, she loved the idea (in prinicple anyway) of being a stripper.

 

[Moky]

Aught3 covered my point beautifully. ImprobableJoe, you just lost me on how the woman will become a slave. How would they become exploited if it's legal? In my eyes you just came out of nowhere with that argument.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Aught3 covered my point beautifully. ImprobableJoe, you just lost me on how the woman will become a slave. How would they become exploited if it's legal? In my eyes you just came out of nowhere with that argument.

Really? Porn is legal, and chicks are exploited in porn left and right. It is hardly "out of nowhere."

 

[Moky]

How are they exploited then? You didn't answer my previous question on the prostitutes as well.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

How are they exploited then? You didn't answer my previous question on the prostitutes as well.

Which question is that? The one about prostitutes being exploited if it becomes legal? Pimps will become "managers" and the same situations will continue unabated.

As far as the exploited porn star? Ask any porn star, and they will tell you of some situation of exploitation... usually an ex-boyfriend/manager/"suitcase pimp."

Total disaster for those poor girls. Some of them break free, some of them just die, almost none of them are just exploitation-free.

For a live-action view of it, watch some Celebrity Rehab/Sober House, and check out Mary Carey and her manager/boyfriend/pimp.

 

[Homunclus]

ImprobableJoe is your point : just because something is legal that doesn't mean the people involved aren't exploited?

If that is so your problem is not with any specific profession but with the system as a whole?

Any worker in any profession is potentially subject to some kind of exploitation...so that leaves us with what? What exactly are you proposing?

 

[Ozymandyus]

It's strange that there is an idea that sex is no different from any other kind of labor floating around in this thread. That sex only has social stigmas because of some antiquated ideas.

Yes, sex has a lot of different meanings to different people. But it is not just like selling any other labor - There is a real difference between doing construction work and allowing people to stick their body parts into you. Or am I just old fashioned?

Sex MEANS something very significant to us biologically. The meaning is built into our brains and bodies, and trying to tear it out by selling your body to the highest bidder I truly believe changes people in ways that we are not built to handle. I think THAT is why it has a stigma, not just because some people are all caught up in their old fashioned social norms.

 

[Moky]

Which question is that? The one about prostitutes being exploited if it becomes legal? Pimps will become "managers" and the same situations will continue unabated.

As far as the exploited porn star? Ask any porn star, and they will tell you of some situation of exploitation... usually an ex-boyfriend/manager/"suitcase pimp."

Total disaster for those poor girls. Some of them break free, some of them just die, almost none of them are just exploitation-free.

For a live-action view of it, watch some Celebrity Rehab/Sober House, and check out Mary Carey and her manager/boyfriend/pimp.

I know of a porn star who was put on a tight leash by her company. I think she just sued and went to work for a different company. If it was illegal, she wouldn't be able to do it. The same situations can be avoided because now the women won't fear coming out to get help from the police or whoever. Before the prostitute would stay silent because she would get arrested if she went for help, if it's legal, she won't have to fear that as much. The porn star can get legal help.

How do you propose to fix the abuse?

 

[You]

What is there to prevent legalized prostitution descending into sexual slavery? Neither Communism nor Capitalism haseliminated slavery or indentured servitude that is de facto slavery. Why would legalizing prostitution magically eliminate exploitation, when we know that exploitation exists all over, with legal sanction? That;s like saying that heroin would be less addictive if it were made legal. The real problems don't go away when you eliminate the jail time.

What is there to prevent illegalized prostitution descending into sexual slavery?

We went through this on the drug thread so I won't belabor the point. Decriminalizing victimless* crime X doesn't magically make it shiny and sparkly, but it does mitigate the total damage. All of the problems that *won't* be eliminated by decriminalization are still there in both scenarios, but in the "decrim" scenario there are fewer overall.


* Potential bog here, but if you want to engage, we can

 

[ImprobableJoe]

What is there to prevent illegalized prostitution descending into sexual slavery?

Nothing... do you have a point?

We went through this on the drug thread so I won't belabor the point. Decriminalizing victimless* crime X doesn't magically make it shiny and sparkly, but it does mitigate the total damage. All of the problems that *won't* be eliminated by decriminalization are still there in both scenarios, but in the "decrim" scenario there are fewer overall.


* Potential bog here, but if you want to engage, we can

We can skip the "bog" but the reality is that sex-for-pay isn't an ideal situation, and won't be perfected by making it legal OR illegal.

 

[Moky]

Then how do you suggest we solve this issue?