Scottish independence

[Prolescum]

Hello.

I'm a Scotsman who currently lives in England (traitor!). I'm aware of the history of this sceptred isle, and some of the for and against full independence from Westminster arguments, but I'd like you to give me some pros and cons as you see them to help me fully explore my options.

Even if you don't know the ins and outs of British politics and history, your gut reactions to a United Kingdom split can be just as enlightening. Of course, questions are also useful so don't feel limited in your responses.

Ta.

 

[Visaki]

If Scotland want's to secede, then go for it. But because it's a big decicion I wouldn't let in hang in balance for one single vote for the people. Maybe 3 votes in a seven or ten year period or something. Though as a Finn I don't really think of Scotland as that much of a different country from G.B. any more than I think Skåne is a different country apart from Sweden or Lapland if different from Finland.

What I'd really want to know is can Scotland afford to be independent from a economic wise. You see there is every other year some talk about indepencance in the Finnish autonomic island region of Åland. That noice pretty much quiets down as soon as someone tells them that their economy would go bust (or at least would be more in the mercy of global economic shifts, it's main income being shipping, tourism and trade) if they didn't get support from the rest of Finland.

 

[WarK]

Prolescum, in the light of the recent privacy scandal involving some governments breaching citizens' privacy on an industrial scale, do you feel like Scotland was dragged into this mess by being a part of the UK?

Do you think that if Scotland was on its own, the Scottish government wouldn't allow such things to happen. Or would a Scottish government be as eager to please the US government as the UK government seems to be?

Do you think this kind of thinking could play a part in the decision process?

 

[Vivre]

a United Kingdom split ?

Will it then be called 'The Split Kingdom'? ... or would they be able to be a modest Britain?

I always tend to let people/animals (/plants) have their own freedom of self determination and it should be granted as long as it doesn't lead to harm.

There's no reason for the population of Scottland to be overruled by an external government if they feel as a closed entity of a kind and wish to follow their own laws/rules/habits.

This should not exclude a friendly, interactive neighbourship including mutual support. Of course I see that 'economics' are a major issue. But we could be adult enough not to misuse economic pressure to force habit-/living/cultural..-phasings.

Looking from a wider angle I don't see why the population on such a small island [incl. Ireland, compared to other continents ] shouldn't work together as one, and still allow local specifics, incl. local regulations.

I haven't been to England for many a years, but what I hear from it, it makes me shiver how it declines towards totalitarianisms. In this regard I would appreciate any separation that aims to preserve an area of human dignity and the freedom of just living.

_________
addendum:
In the last couple of days the term 'diversity' keeps reoccuring to me. Isn't the strengh of nature to survive rooted it diversity? Shouldn't we care to keep a certain amount of diversity vivid, even if it looks 'unproductive/unprogressive' at the current timeline?

 

[australopithecus]

I think it would be a damn shame is Scotland left the union, I see Britain (all relevant countries) as a good thing. There are probably various economic reasons why Scotland shouldn't be independent, but I honestly can't list them off the top of my head.

 

[malicious_bloke]

As someone who identifies as English first and British reluctantly, my opinion is that if a majority of scots vote for independance then go for it.

The qualifier is that if the SNP think they are going to walk away from those independance negotiations with all the north sea oil, all the contracts for maintaining the british military assets north of the border AND shirking all of the debts currently held by the UK they are living in some bizarre alternate universe.

There seems to be this overwhelming idea among scottish nationalists that they will come out of this whole thing with a bunch of assets they don't have, no debts despite what they owe and the ability to dictate terms of whatever political/economic union they want with whomever they want regardless of what they actually bring to the table. It just isn't going to happen.

 

[Prolescum]

If Scotland want's to secede, then go for it. But because it's a big decicion I wouldn't let in hang in balance for one single vote for the people. Maybe 3 votes in a seven or ten year period or something. Though as a Finn I don't really think of Scotland as that much of a different country from G.B. any more than I think Skåne is a different country apart from Sweden or Lapland if different from Finland.

Scotland was an independent nation until just over 300 years ago, so I don't think your comparison holds; it isn't a province

What I'd really want to know is can Scotland afford to be independent from a economic wise. You see there is every other year some talk about indepencance in the Finnish autonomic island region of Åland. That noice pretty much quiets down as soon as someone tells them that their economy would go bust (or at least would be more in the mercy of global economic shifts, it's main income being shipping, tourism and trade) if they didn't get support from the rest of Finland.

Well I don't pretend to know the pros and cons of independence, but I suspect that not all that much would change. It already has fairly independent tax and spending powers, access to resources (such as North Sea oil), and plans to continue being part of the EU with fiscal ties to the British pound.

Prolescum, in the light of the recent privacy scandal involving some governments breaching citizens' privacy on an industrial scale, do you feel like Scotland was dragged into this mess by being a part of the UK?

I believe that GCHQ would have access to Scottish communications regardless of its membership of the UK.

Do you think that if Scotland was on its own, the Scottish government wouldn't allow such things to happen. Or would a Scottish government be as eager to please the US government as the UK government seems to be?

I don't know if that would be the case, but I suspect friendship with the US is a necessity, much like the relationship it has with the rest of Europe. I don't think it'll have the same relationship the US has had with Ireland, though.

Do you think this kind of thinking could play a part in the decision process?

No, but that's only because most of them don't own a British passport.

a United Kingdom split ?

Will it then be called 'The Split Kingdom'? ... or would they be able to be a modest Britain?

As I understand, England, Wales and Northern Ireland will still be called the United Kingdom. Until Wales decides whether or not to follow suit.

I always tend to let people/animals (/plants) have their own freedom of self determination and it should be granted as long as it doesn't lead to harm.

There's no reason for the population of Scottland to be overruled by an external government if they feel as a closed entity of a kind and wish to follow their own laws/rules/habits.

Well that's one of the odd things, I guess; Scotland has always (as part of the union agreement) kept its own laws.

This should not exclude a friendly, interactive neighbourship including mutual support. Of course I see that 'economics' are a major issue. But we could be adult enough not to misuse economic pressure to force habit-/living/cultural..-phasings.

Well Westminister will (and has to some degree already) use any weapon in their arsenal to stop Scotland from becoming independent (there were recent discussions coming out of Westminister regarding the UK's nuclear deterrent, currently berthed in Scotland).

Looking from a wider angle I don't see why the population on such a small island [incl. Ireland, compared to other continents ] shouldn't work together as one, and still allow local specifics, incl. local regulations.

I haven't been to England for many a years, but what I hear from it, it makes me shiver how it declines towards totalitarianisms. In this regard I would appreciate any separation that aims to preserve an area of human dignity and the freedom of just living.

Scots often believe that the act of union was not really an act of union but an act of subservience.

_________
addendum:
In the last couple of days the term 'diversity' keeps reoccuring to me. Isn't the strengh of nature to survive rooted it diversity? Shouldn't we care to keep a certain amount of diversity vivid, even if it looks 'unproductive/unprogressive' at the current timeline?

People aren't naturally rational, it takes effort. Not everyone takes things like that into consideration.


I'm against the concept of borders (I'm human before British or Scottish), but a principle I believe in is self-determination. The latter holds more weight than my preference.

 

[malicious_bloke]

Well Westminister will (and has to some degree already) use any weapon in their arsenal to stop Scotland from becoming independent (there were recent discussions coming out of Westminister regarding the UK's nuclear deterrent, currently berthed in Scotland).

What's the problem with that? Why would the MOD want to keep its most powerful weapons berthed in a foreign country?

An independant scotland will need its own armed forces anyway, all British military bases north of the border should be moved south in the case of the scots voting yes.

 

[Prolescum]

Er, the issue was who should pay for the transfer to English territory, not that Scotland wants to keep a nuclear deterrent; it most certainly doesn't.

Scotland already has something of an army, my brother's old regiment being part of it... The military bases (such as they are) will probably stay as they are likely already maintained by the Scottish government, i.e. not owned by England.

Are you really of the opinion that everything British should go to England if we split? That's... bonkers.

 

[malicious_bloke]

Are you really of the opinion that everything British should go to England if we split? That's... bonkers.

Not at all, but anything that will continue to be maintained through British taxpayers money after any split should be relocated south of the border, military installations and materiel being a prime example of this.

 

[Prolescum]

Are you really of the opinion that everything British should go to England if we split? That's... bonkers.

Not at all, but anything that will continue to be maintained through British taxpayers money after any split should be relocated south of the border, military installations and materiel being a prime example of this.

While I agree with that in principle, I'm not certain it's practical to do that in the case of installations... Are you really suggesting we move the radioactive munitions in the Solway Firth from the live depleted uranium shelling range down to Merseyside?
I'm sure some kind of agreement will be reached, it's not like Scotland is moving to America to chase its dreams.

I just re-read your first post, and it looks like a bit of a pastiche. That said, I'm intrigued by this:

As someone who identifies as English first and British reluctantly

Why reluctantly?

 

[malicious_bloke]

As someone who identifies as English first and British reluctantly

Why reluctantly?

Because I have no choice in the matter, even though I don't see what England actually gains from membership of the union.

My passport and driver's license define me as British but I'm a part of the 84% of the UK population who doesn't have a devolved national parliament.

Scots like to complain about how dominated they are by Westminister but the fact remains that you have a legal code that differs from ours (for an example of this see: the legalisation of same-sex marriage in England and Wales that doesn't apply in scotland), a great degree of autonomy from the British government AND representation IN the British parliament.

You aren't doing too badly, considering that your much larger southern neighbour has no such autonomy. Same goes for Wales and Northern Ireland. Think about it this way, there are currently 5 seats in parliament (the only legislative body England has) held by Sinn Fein, 3 by Plaid Cymru and 6 by the SNP.

If this is the crap the provinces want to vote for, they can have their independance, sooner rather than later. Good riddance to them.

 

[Prolescum]

Because I have no choice in the matter, even though I don't see what England actually gains from membership of the union.

Scottish regiments, taxes, access to the North Sea oil, deep-fried Mars bars...

My passport and driver's license define me as British but I'm a part of the 84% of the UK population who doesn't have a devolved national parliament.

You know why? Because you rejected it. Yoink.

You already have Westminister anyway - MPs serving English constituencies: 533; MPs serving Scottish constituencies: 59.

Scots like to complain about how dominated they are by Westminister

Nearly ten to one. What a bunch of moany wankers :lol:

In all seriousness, the needs of the south east are considered above the rest of England, let alone the other members of the union.

but the fact remains that you have a legal code that differs from ours

As agreed in the Acts of Union.

[. . .] a great degree of autonomy from the British government AND representation IN the British parliament.

A recent development, I think you'll find. Scots have been asking for a devolved government since the negotiations of the Acts of Union.

You aren't doing too badly

I live in England

considering that your much larger southern neighbour has no such autonomy.

See above.

Same goes for Wales and Northern Ireland. Think about it this way, there are currently 5 seats in parliament (the only legislative body England has) held by Sinn Fein, 3 by Plaid Cymru and 6 by the SNP.

If this is the crap the provinces want to vote for, they can have their independance, sooner rather than later. Good riddance to them.

I can see why you'd dislike Sinn Fein, being what they are (I lived in London when the IRA were regularly blowing it up, like here - mere metres from my home), but Plaid Cymru and the SNP?

Could you sum up your feelings towards them? I'm interested in why you've lumped them in together.

 

[Dustnite]

I saw Braveheart....


That's all I got.

 

[PAB]

I'm against the concept of borders (I'm human before British or Scottish), but a principle I believe in is self-determination. The latter holds more weight than my preference.

The right of self determination of nationalities is the key issue. Personally self-determination is only really important regarding the oppression of one nationality (or multiple nations) by another. Whilst Prolescum is a Scotsman living in England im an Englishman living in Scotland. A complaint i have heard among the discussion for independence is the fact that the Tory's no longer have a base in Scotland, with the claim that there are more pandas in Scotland than conservatives- yet the torys sit in the drivers seat in the coalition.....its not quite oppression anymore than an ordinary working person in throughout the UK is being hammered by austerity and coalition policies.



Comedian Frankie Boyle (11 minutes in approx.) on Russia Today on Scottish Independence puts forward that Scottish independence should be portrayed as getting away from the Tory's and towards Scotland becoming " the independent socialist country that it feels in its heart". This is a very idealistic view but reflects something significant. The labour party base has diminished due to new labour policies, i.e. pro working class socialistic politics is out and pro business pro the rich is in, and in its place nationalism has stepped in as a hopeful answer to peoples problems. (Nationalism and racism tend to function in this way)

The real illusion is not the logistics in nuclear weapons, military bases etc. But the real illusion is that an independent Scotland will offer an alternative to austerity. That some how an independent Scotland freed from Westminster will pursue some magical formula that will lead them to prosperity.

What i would say to Frankie Boyle and other Scottish people who have illusions in Independence, is instead, focus on building links with people not only of England wales and northern Ireland . But also Ireland, spain , greece and so on and so on. To not hope for socialism but to build for socialism in all countries, which is the only alternative to austerity and impoverishment.

 

[malicious_bloke]

The real illusion is not the logistics in nuclear weapons, military bases etc. But the real illusion is that an independent Scotland will offer an alternative to austerity. That some how an independent Scotland freed from Westminster will pursue some magical formula that will lead them to prosperity.

*an independant Scotland that retains the pound (but totally free from interference from the organisation responsible for fiscal control of the pound ^_^, preferential access to tariff-free trade with the EU despite meeting none of the prerequisites and a mythical alternate universe where every utopian social program can be enacted without raising taxes to ridiculous levels.

Oh and crying about the loss of jobs in scottish shipyards when the MOD decides that future Royal Navy vessels should be built in the UK rather than a foreign country (link).

 

[Vivre]

Hello,
as the referendum is coming closer I'd like to share some videos I came across these days.
In parts to be taken with a bit of humor, besides the unmistakably solid considerations.
~ good luck to Scotland ~
[showmore=Jason fears international turmoil]

Jason Young - Dear The People Of Scotland - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JU_tc95wI-k​

[/showmore]
[showmore=Mark pleas for vanguard role to free UK...]

chunkymark - A message to the people of Scotland - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsxJyV35xps​

[/showmore]
[showmore=David interviews Chris Bambery - author of A Peoples History of Scotland]

MidweekPolitics - Would Scotland Be Better Off Independent of the UK? - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdeCxnD1hAM​

[/showmore]
[showmore=People in down under raise worrisome questions]

DangerouslyTalented - how about no - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oqyYBX7tDA​

[/showmore]

 

[Prolescum]

I may be ridiculously drunk, but I've been taking an incomprehensibly poor and utterly incoherent poll on the matter. The over 30's are adamantly pro Scotland but utterly against independence. I dfounf this rather odd, but genuine. My parents and their peers are socialists but fail to see the overall value in independence from England. The under 30's (one can vote from 16) are seemingly perplexed by the nationalistic argument given that Europe has been coming together since the founding of the EEC. However, having visited several towns in the last few days, I've seen untold YES signs and only two NO signs displayed. Not really sure what to make of it. There seems to be a somewhat sinister undertone which suggests that the YES will win but leave a sense of long-term uncertainty, which given the last decade of "austerity" and general cuntery from the political class has many worried.

I will likely edit this when not Scottish drunk for coherence.

sent from my Commodore Amiga 500

 

[Engelbert]

I too have had some adult beverages this evening... not too many, but enough to be concerned for my English. I think Scotland is great. If the Scots want independence, then I'm sympathetic. If they want to stay in the Union, then I'd be very pleased too. My initial instinct is to say, that I would sooner see Scotland as part of the Union, although I don't know the arguments and the potential outcomes well enough. There are arguments to say that a vote for independence would beneficially refresh the economies of both nations forcing greater innovation and success as a result. My base, insufficiently informed position, would probably be that I would rather Scotland stay in the Union, but could be swayed if it was truly beneficial for all involved for Scotland to secede. My gut instinct is that we are better and stronger as a union, so I would probably vote for the union to remain. My brother suspects that the vote could be close, since there is a reasonable extent of anti English sentiment in Scotland. He lived there for several years and said that if they show Braveheart the night before the vote, it could well go either way.

 

[PAB]

However, having visited several towns in the last few days, I've seen untold YES signs and only two NO signs displayed. Not really sure what to make of it.

The vibe is definitely with the yes vote. I have seen a few no voter stickers, badges, but predominantly its Yes. Its yes gratified everywhere, its Yes flags which are waving. There's another side of this however, are no voters going to be shouting from the rooftops as much as the Yes campaign...no, there's no enthusiasm in the no campaign its purely negative. This may give a slight distorted view on the street. And YES is definitely the impression you get on the face of things.

Regarding socialists they are split. I'm biased myself and partisan, but in my opinion it is generally the softer left which supports independence, as it cannot see the woods for the trees. (The SSP and tommy sheridan.....damn disgrace, from a socialist perspective). It fails to make a socialist analysis, basing itself on pipe dreams and a confusion with austerity=Westminster (or Tory party).
I side with the socialists who lean towards No.
Independence for Scotland doesn't take you one step forward re: socialism. (even the Radical independence campaign have admitted this)
What does independence get you? it gets you more control , more power of Scottish parliament (genuinely a good thing im a supporter, as are most if not all socialists of further devolution) It gets you a independent capitalist country.
That's about it. what does this mean for socialists? genuinely very little. Reforms are relative to the economy, crumbs that can be given to the poor, and this will depend on Scotland being a successful capitalist economy. For socialist this means measures that will exploit workers and weaken workers positions . The idea that Scotland is really more left wing is a myth, similar levels of bigotry and racism, hatred towards immigrants as England.
For any serious socialist the answer to what next after a no vote is the same as what next after a yes vote, being; The revolutionary transformation of society based on the working class and socialist ideas. Becoming an independent capitalist country cannot solve Scotland's problems.

My worry, in terms of nationalism, is that whether yes or no, nationalist sentiments will be stirred. Being on ground Zero, nationalism in Scotland is a problem , - "who cares if Londoners loose jobs" re: intensification in economic competition . If its a Yes vote no matter what the deal Uk/Britain England/Westminster would have cut Scotland a "raw deal" i.e. the percentage of debt will be to much, refusal to allow currency union, or if currency union is allowed the necessary demands for that union. If its a No vote, i know for a fact ill hear or read something about ending the colonial bondage of Scotland by the rest of the UK (insert number of yes voters in the election). From a socialist perspective nationalism is a problem as it diverges the real problem of class conflict, union struggles with bosses onto nationalist conflict, real or perceived. Instead of fighting the boss for a living wage, it can be deflected to worker against worker over national boundaries.(we see this all the time re. immigrants illegal or legal, such as "illegal immigrants are pushing wages down"- this is false illegal immigrants have no control over what they are paid just as the rest of us workers. its the bosses who set wages, its really bosses pushing wages down.

Scapegoat is the Alpha and Omega of the independence campaign. Not only on the nitty gritty and banter but in and of itself. The real problem is seen as Westminster, as the Tories , or even the UK. As much as i dislike all of these things, they are not the real problem. Austerity has not originated from the Tories (it isnt a coincidence that after the capitalist crises and the bail out of the banks a program of austerity was implemented in multiple countries with the IMF insisting). The Tories simply agree with it, implement it without reservation and bathe in its destruction..because they are the Tories...but they didn't make it up. Many people, the majority i think, turn to independence in hope that it will ease the pain, not to end it, but because from their perspective nothing could be worse than how things are now.
Except they can. Independence is being treated like a reform,(or a measure in order to get some reforms) but one which can backfire badly.
The socialist perspective is: Socialism or nationalism.

Anyway, ill be voting no. But reckon a yes is not only possible but maybe the most likely, but that might be me influenced by the hype.
Itll be fun to watch as it should be close. I can always return to the Uk if the Saltire hits the fan . But on a serious note if it is Yes, i genuinely hope im wrong on my concerns. After all its hard to be gleeful when hungry and cold.

(PS. i dont have any excuse for my writing, im completely sober )