Rumraket
Active Member
You don't seem to have comprehended what the evidence I referenced actually means. Nor even what evidence actually is. What it means for an observation to constitute evidence for a hypothesis.leroy said:Your “evidence” was not ignored, I have said many times that for the sake of this thread we are assuming that amino acids can be created naturally, and to include your papers, we can assume that amino acids appeared in any ratio and chronological order that you might find convenient.
In order for some piece of data (which can be some piece of data, like a temperature measurement) to be evidence for a hypothesis and not evidence for another hypothesis, at least two conditions must be met. First of all, the hypothesis must predict the data (for example what the temperature will be), and second there must not be other and contradictory hypotheses that predict the same thing.
Now, regarding the evidence I referenced:
It's not just about "creating amino acids".
It is about a PREDICTION from theories of abiogenesis, and then FINDING what they predict. And how no other theory predicts this. It therefore satisfies the two criteria of predictive hypothesis testing I detailed above, and is therefore evidence FOR abiogenesis, and NOT evidence for anything else.
it is not "evidence that amino acids can be created naturally in particular ratios". The evidence is of the form of a predicted amino-acid composition of ancestral protein states from the earliest stages of life. This composition is predicted to match the composition one would expect to get from abiotic chemistry. IF these two compositons MATCH, as theories of abiogenesis predict, then a piece of evidence for abiogenesis has been found.
It is evidence of abiogenesis. That abiogenesis happened and that it was a natural event governed by well-known physical and chemical laws. It isn't PROOF of abiogenesis (meaning that it IS possible to rationalize it as being compatible with some other hypothesis), but it IS evidence.
There is no entropy problem. Entropy is not a problem because the Earth is not an isolated system, neither are individual molecules, or the structures they can and do assemble into.Leroy said:You still have the entropy problem that has been described + many other problems
What the hell does this elephant crap has to do with what I'm saying?Leroy said:Not true, the existence of pink elephants does not contradict any fundamental law ether, but it is still fare to assume that pink elephants don’t exist, anyone who affirms that pink elephants exists has a burden proof.Rumraket said:And there is zero evidence that nature "can't" produce life from non-life. The only way you can have evidence for such a claim is if you have evidence that shows that the transition from non-life to life requires a violation of a fundamental law or force of nature. There is no such evidence.
You don't seem to have understood what I wrote. Your pink-elephant analogy here bears no relation to the logic of the argument I made.
To spell it out for you more: Merely observing that under some limited condition X, event Y does not take place, is not evidence that event Y physically cannot take place anywhere in nature.
Why? Here's why:
Would it be correct to say that, if we try to make a flying machine powered by a propeller fly on the moon where there is no air, and we fail to make it fly, that flying machines powered by propellers are physically impossible everywhere in nature?
Or how about: Hurricanes never form over arid desert environments, therefore hurricanes are physically impossible everywhere in nature? Is the observation that hurricanes never form over arid desert environments, a piece of evidence that indicates that hurricanes actually can't physically form anywhere in nature?
No, obviously not.
So what WOULD constitute evidence that flying machines powered by propellers are physically impossible everywhere in nature?
Well, either we would have to have tested a very very large fraction of all physically possible environments and conditions in nature, or we would have to know that some property of flying machines powered by propellers are in a fundamental conflict with how nature works.
To go back to the subject of abiogenesis, we are clearly not in such a situation. We have NOT tested a very large fraction of all physically possible environments and conditions in nature, barely even an infinitesimal speck of them. There have really only been a tiny handful of serious experiments, and they weren't even really testing theories for the origin of life. Rather they were testing particuar aspects of theories of chemistry thought to have operated on the early Earth.
And we don't have even the slightest indication that abiogenesis would require violation of a fundamental natural law.
Yes, and evidence has indeed been provided.Leroy said:Similarly you are affirming that abiogenesis took place naturally so you have a burden proof.
All books were created naturally. Nobody is violating the laws of nature, or performing a miracle or divine intervention, when they write a book.Leroy said:There is no fundamental law that prevents ink to form meaningful sentences naturally but anyone who claims that a book was created naturally would have to face a fundamental “statistical problem” and this problem would be so big that any “nature did it hypothesis” would be dropped