Santa Calus and other imaginary characters

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

I think that these kinds of arguments completely miss the point of those who disagree with the notion of convincing children that Santa is real.

I've never said that all childhood imagination should be replaced with stern realism. Just that you should not convince them that the box is really a spaceship etc. That doesn't mean you should stop them pretending by any means.

You're not going to sit in the box with them and drive around?
What's the difference between playing Spaceman and playing Santa? When I was a kid - Santa was the bomb-shit, not because he gave me presents, but because this single man cared about other people so much that he literally devoted his entire life to it! I didn't need anyone to eventually tell me that Santa wasn't real - it just faded a bit. But even into adulthood I still grasp these vague feelings and notions of the jolly old man in the red suit that gave and gave.

My position is simple; you shouldn't tell unnecessary lies to children and I see no reason to make an exception for Santa Claus.

I wouldn't care if my children decided to play games and pretending around the notion of Santa, I just would not interject their playing by telling them 'hey kids you know that Santa is really a real person right?'. That is all. It's amazing how people translate that into wanting to destroy their childhood, and crush their dreams...

If I had a kid with a box - I would sit there and play Spaceman Race-car Driver from the Kitchen, and play Santa Claus.
"HEY DAD! SANTA'S COMING!"
"Yeah, he is, champ." *SMILES*

In any other setting, encouraging disinformation is essentially on the same level of lying. If you knew somebody was absolutely dead-wrong, but you encourage it, you might as well have given the stamp-of-approval in the typical mindset. The human mind, many times (and, especially in childhood) is set to an IF NOT NO, THEN OBVIOUSLY YES concept. The encouragement of a box being a space ship or the existence of Santa Claus, in this sense, are on the exact same level.
You might not be saying "It's a Space Ship!" or "Santa is Real!" but to any child you are.

You can't have your moral-high cake and eat it, too.

 

[Laurens]

I think that these kinds of arguments completely miss the point of those who disagree with the notion of convincing children that Santa is real.

I've never said that all childhood imagination should be replaced with stern realism. Just that you should not convince them that the box is really a spaceship etc. That doesn't mean you should stop them pretending by any means.

You're not going to sit in the box with them and drive around?
What's the difference between playing Spaceman and playing Santa? When I was a kid - Santa was the bomb-shit, not because he gave me presents, but because this single man cared about other people so much that he literally devoted his entire life to it! I didn't need anyone to eventually tell me that Santa wasn't real - it just faded a bit. But even into adulthood I still grasp these vague feelings and notions of the jolly old man in the red suit that gave and gave.

My position is simple; you shouldn't tell unnecessary lies to children and I see no reason to make an exception for Santa Claus.

I wouldn't care if my children decided to play games and pretending around the notion of Santa, I just would not interject their playing by telling them 'hey kids you know that Santa is really a real person right?'. That is all. It's amazing how people translate that into wanting to destroy their childhood, and crush their dreams...

If I had a kid with a box - I would sit there and play Spaceman Race-car Driver from the Kitchen, and play Santa Claus.
"HEY DAD! SANTA'S COMING!"
"Yeah, he is, champ." *SMILES*

In any other setting, encouraging disinformation is essentially on the same level of lying. If you knew somebody was absolutely dead-wrong, but you encourage it, you might as well have given the stamp-of-approval in the typical mindset. The human mind, many times (and, especially in childhood) is set to an IF NOT NO, THEN OBVIOUSLY YES concept. The encouragement of a box being a space ship or the existence of Santa Claus, in this sense, are on the exact same level.
You might not be saying "It's a Space Ship!" or "Santa is Real!" but to any child you are.

You can't have your moral-high cake and eat it, too.

Of course I'd play games with my children. I would have fun with them just like anyone else would.

I would not convince them that any of the imaginary characters that we invent or adopt are actually real. I do not agree that playing imaginative games with kids is the same as encouraging them to have a false belief. Do you really see no difference between pretending to be a monster during a game with children, and sitting down and telling them that monsters do really exist? I'd say that there is a strong moral difference between the two.

I'd happily pretend to be a monster during a game, if I felt that the child had started to believe that monsters were real then I'd assure them that they aren't. If I had any sense that my children were convinced that Santa really existed, I would assure them that he doesn't. I see a big difference between playing games with children and making an effort to convince them that something imaginary is real.

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

You're not making a heavy conviction -
you're playing along with the whole Santa thing with them.

Hell, after the minute of magic, it's not hard to deduce that Santa doesn't ACTUALLY exist. It's not hard if you don't have a chimney, really, for him to come down, nor many other things that are required for Santa.
Then, well, there's 8 billion people in the world. That's an asston of houses for a single 24-hour window of revolving night.

I would tell my children about Santa Claus like I would tell them about scary stories or anything with "Once upon a time..."
There is, indeed, a certain magic to it that you've either not experienced, Laurens, or have seriously forgotten.

 

[Laurens]

I would tell my children about Santa Claus like I would tell them about scary stories or anything with "Once upon a time..."
There is, indeed, a certain magic to it that you've either not experienced, Laurens, or have seriously forgotten.

I experienced lots of magic at Christmas, and my parents never told me that Santa is real.

I simply do not see what it would add to the experience if I told my children that Santa is real. I know it's not something that would cause great harm, and I've conceded that from the start. However, I personally I think that in order to be a good role model and have integrity as a parent then you should not unnecessarily lie to your children. Telling them that Santa is real is a lie, and it is unnecessary - I personally see absolutely no reason whatsoever to make a special exception in this case.

This argument that it makes things more magical for the children to tell them that Santa is real is bullshit. I know from my own experience and the experience of my relatives that Christmas is great fun without having to be convinced that Santa is real. This doesn't justify the act itself either. I could convince a child of lots of things that might make the world seem a little more magical - but the ends do not justify the means whatsoever.

I do not agree with the actions of people who actively encourage their children that Santa really exists, and does really come into their house at Christmas. I think this is completely different from saying 'once upon a time' at the start of a story, or playing games with them. Its a case of actively deceiving a child, and trying to convince them that something non-existent is existent. What justification is there for doing so?

I'm not saying Santa should be banned, just that I believe people should think twice before going to an effort to actively deceive their kids. I've heard of people leaving sooty boot prints and all sorts, in order to make their kids really believe it. It doesn't make it any more magical, and I think its rather sinister to go to such lengths to deceive a child. I don't have a problem with parents mentioning Santa, or having fun with the concept, but I think that there is a clear line between that and active deception, and I believe parents should not cross it.

 

[tuxbox]

I experienced lots of magic at Christmas, and my parents never told me that Santa is real.

I simply do not see what it would add to the experience if I told my children that Santa is real. I know it's not something that would cause great harm, and I've conceded that from the start. However, I personally I think that in order to be a good role model and have integrity as a parent then you should not unnecessarily lie to your children. Telling them that Santa is real is a lie, and it is unnecessary - I personally see absolutely no reason whatsoever to make a special exception in this case.

This argument that it makes things more magical for the children to tell them that Santa is real is bullshit. I know from my own experience and the experience of my relatives that Christmas is great fun without having to be convinced that Santa is real. This doesn't justify the act itself either. I could convince a child of lots of things that might make the world seem a little more magical - but the ends do not justify the means whatsoever.

I do not agree with the actions of people who actively encourage their children that Santa really exists, and does really come into their house at Christmas. I think this is completely different from saying 'once upon a time' at the start of a story, or playing games with them. Its a case of actively deceiving a child, and trying to convince them that something non-existent is existent. What justification is there for doing so?

I'm not saying Santa should be banned, just that I believe people should think twice before going to an effort to actively deceive their kids. I've heard of people leaving sooty boot prints and all sorts, in order to make their kids really believe it. It doesn't make it any more magical, and I think its rather sinister to go to such lengths to deceive a child. I don't have a problem with parents mentioning Santa, or having fun with the concept, but I think that there is a clear line between that and active deception, and I believe parents should not cross it.

+1

 

[Nelipot]

Click right a few times to see some real Xmas drear: http://imageshack.us/f/87/krampustile.jpg/

 

[CosmicJoghurt]

This is a recursive discussion, hence dull. We could debate your moral standards all day but it won't change anything. To you, Santa's some sort of cultural horror that should be be banned on moral grounds and I think your outlook is joyless and OTT. I'm not one for killing jars.

You seem to like to divert the conversation by putting your psychologist hat on, or going strawman.

@Hytegia

To me it looks like you and Laurens don't have so different opinions. He's saying "don't lie to 'em" and you're saying you like the idea of Santa being talked about as a sort of fairy-tale-story-thing.

 

[The Felonius Pope]

I think, as an athiest, that it is fine to raise your kids believing in santa, the easter bunny, etc... Religious people seem to

have a problem with changing their beliefs to accommodate evidence, but with any luck your child will grow up fine and

will one day relinquish her/his belief in santa when the time comes.