Santa Calus and other imaginary characters

[Laurens]

What harm, if any, would come from children being told and believing Santa is real? That's the crux of the issue for me. Harm. Where is it it? If the implication is that telling children Santa is real (and in the grand scheme of dishonesty it is rather minute) is that they will grow up into gullible tools who will believe anything then I personally reject that on the basis that it's unfounded nonsense.

I will lie to my kids, and I'd wager you won't find a parent who hasn't.

Exactly because being a parent calls for all kinds of compromises; easy to state how you'd be when you don't have kids to deal with. They have a way of turning the world on its head. If we presented our kids with the truth and only the truth about the world then they'd be faced at too young an age with things they don't have the mechanisms to deal with. As parents we shield our kids and if that includes white lies that's fine by my conscience.

The thing here is that Santa doesn't protect children from anything that they don't have mechanisms to deal with.

I said in my previous post that lying to children may sometimes be necessary and justifiable. How is lying about Santa necessary and justifiable? The way you just justified lying to children most definitely doesn't cover telling them that Santa is real.

 

[Nelipot]

Santa is make-believe, a game, a pleasant fiction. If your point was extrapolated more widely, there would be no story books or fiction of any kind, or plays or art because none of them are necessarily and justifiably true. The Puritans disappeared a long time ago and their views along with them.

 

[Laurens]

Santa is make-believe, a game, a pleasant fiction. If your point was extrapolated more widely, there would be no story books or fiction of any kind, or plays or art because none of them are necessarily and justifiably true. The Puritans disappeared a long time ago and their views along with them.

People don't generally convince children that story books and fiction are actually true. That's the problem with Santa, that people convince their children that he actually exists - so you can't really say that if my point was taken to it's extreme children wouldn't be able to enjoy story books or fiction. That would be missing my whole point entirely.

I don't even think its a problem to pretend and make believe around the idea of Santa, so long as you don't make efforts to deceive your children that it is all real, for no good reason, other than perhaps to get them to behave a bit better.

 

[Nelipot]

I think you're the only one with a problem about Santa.

 

[Laurens]

I think you're the only one with a problem about Santa.

I don't have a problem with Santa.

My problem is with convincing children that Santa is a real person who really comes into their house to deliver presents. I am of the view that children should not be unnecessarily deceived about anything. Santa is no exception. It doesn't add anything to the experience of Christmas. I haven't seen any solid justification for it in this topic.

And don't worry it's not like I am constantly getting angry about this subject. Someone brought it up, and I added my thoughts. It's not like I stay awake at night getting furious about it.

 

[Nelipot]

I think your real problem is that you want to cut off all the bits of human nature that don't fit in your perfect world. That's a tad sadder than people pretending Santa is real.

 

[Laurens]

I think your real problem is that you want to cut off all the bits of human nature that don't fit in your perfect world. That's a tad sadder than people pretending Santa is real.

I personally think that children should not be lied to unnecessarily. That is what you could call a moral standard of mine. I'd hold to this even if the lie made them feel better, or had no detrimental effect. If the lie is unnecessary - in other words, it doesn't protect the child from harm or suffering - then it should not be told. I see no reason to make an exception for Santa.

Telling children that Santa is real when he is not is lying, there is no two ways about that. So, given that it is unnecessary, and does not detract from the experience of Christmas, how do you justify lying to children that something non-existent, is actually real?

Also you really don't seem to grasp that I don't have any huge 'problem' with people telling their children that Santa is real, I think that they are wrong to do so, and I see no justification for it, I am merely stating that if I had children I would not lie to them for no reason. And bear in mind that just because I am discussing and debating it here, doesn't mean that in real life I am extremely passionate about this. I don't really care that much, but I thought I'd add my thoughts to the discussion in this topic.

 

[Nelipot]

This is a recursive discussion, hence dull. We could debate your moral standards all day but it won't change anything. To you, Santa's some sort of cultural horror that should be be banned on moral grounds and I think your outlook is joyless and OTT. I'm not one for killing jars.

 

[Laurens]

This is a recursive discussion, hence dull. We could debate your moral standards all day but it won't change anything. To you, Santa's some sort of cultural horror that should be be banned on moral grounds and I think your outlook is joyless and OTT. I'm not one for killing jars.

With all due respect, you're pulling shit out of your arse.

I don't think Santa is a cultural horror that should be banned. I can appreciate the concept as a fiction, and so can children. My objection is convincing children that he is real. If you think that Christmas would be completely joyless if children are simply told 'Santa isn't really real, but people enjoy pretending at Christmas' then I think your imagination must be severely lacking.

The fact that you're resorting to completely distorting my opinion on the matter into your rather amusing portrayal of me being some joyless Scrooge who wants to ban people from having fun at Christmas just goes to show that you don't have anything sensible to offer as an objection to my points.

I think you're a joyless bastard because you don't convince your children that the Happy Happy Dance Love Bunny will come around when they're sleeping and make them feel magically happy.

Can you offer anything more to this discussion than calling me Scrooge?

 

[Prolescum]

With all due respect, you're pulling shit out of your arse.

Bah! Bumhug!

 

[Nelipot]

 

[australopithecus]

To you, Santa's some sort of cultural horror that should be be banned on moral grounds and I think your outlook is joyless and OTT. I'm not one for killing jars.

To be fair, that is rather a large strawman of Laurens' position. No one ever convinced anyone of anything by arguing against a position that no one is holding.

 

[Nelipot]

I find it difficult to see the value in any parent sitting earnestly down with the kids to tell them that sure they can put out cookies and milk but that Santa doesn't exist and Daddy's going to eat them instead. All to make a point that really doesn't need to be made and score some form of moral brownie point. It's not like real life, it comes across as the *tsk tsk* and fingerwagging of someone who's read all the manuals but doesn't have the experience. For that reason I disagree. As I said before, as parents we spend a lot of time shielding our kids from a lot of things. If someone wants to remove all fantasy and magic from childhood just because of a George Washington complex, that someone wouldn't be me and no amount of footstamping will alter my opinion.

 

[Laurens]

I find it difficult to see the value in any parent sitting earnestly down with the kids to tell them that sure they can put out cookies and milk but that Santa doesn't exist and Daddy's going to eat them instead. All to make a point that really doesn't need to be made and score some form of moral brownie point. It's not like real life, it comes across as the *tsk tsk* and fingerwagging of someone who's read all the manuals but doesn't have the experience. For that reason I disagree. As I said before, as parents we spend a lot of time shielding our kids from a lot of things. If someone wants to remove all fantasy and magic from childhood just because of a George Washington complex, that someone wouldn't be me and no amount of footstamping will alter my opinion.

You continue to assert that I somehow want to 'remove all the fantasy and magic from childhood' this simply is not the case.

I wouldn't have a problem with my children drawing pictures of Santa, seeing his likeness in TV shows etc etc. The only thing I'd do differently is I would not convince them that Santa is real. Just like you wouldn't convince your children that Batman is real for no reason. The fact that you don't convince them of that doesn't prevent them from appreciating Batman.

Can you stop straw manning my position and come up with an argument that addresses my points?

 

[Nelipot]

Why would I bother? I'm not convinced that any response would pierce your conviction that you and you alone are right.; I've noted some of your posts on other threads. That's not a debate, it's akin to throwing custard pies at Stonehenge. We'll never agree and recognising the fact is the sensible option. Devoting more keystrokes will achieve nothing.

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

I agree with Nemesiah - 100%.

You're absolutely right - we should rob children from the mysticism of growing up and childhood fantasy that fosters both imagination and pleasant memories.
Fuck their box. We should light it on fire and tell them that it's just a damned box and not a rocket ship/race car/bakery shop/castle.
We should foster them into a world of cold reality by telling them that their paper sword is no use and that there's no dragons for them to slay, then yell at the teachers for allowing them to read them anything but non-fiction stories because we're all well aware that our kids aren't going to listen to us on this matter.
We should teach them that when they grow up they are (statistically speaking) going to sit behind a desk and work there until they are fired, then find a new job, and then reach a weak retirement and die. Along those lines we should teach them that there is a high divorce rate and that there's no such thing as riding off into the sunset with that princess from 4th block.
We should steamroll all of these fantasies from the absolute start before they start getting petty inspirational ideas from them and developing silly dreams.

I mean, there's absolutely no reason at all to humor these fantasies right?

:roll:

 

[Laurens]

Why would I bother? I'm not convinced that any response would pierce your conviction that you and you alone are right.; I've noted some of your posts on other threads. That's not a debate, it's akin to throwing custard pies at Stonehenge. We'll never agree and recognising the fact is the sensible option. Devoting more keystrokes will achieve nothing.

I'm open to admitting that I'm wrong if you show me the flaws in my reasoning, instead of attacking straw men and calling me Scrooge.

You've literally offered no reasonable justification for convincing children that Santa is real. You said it will ruin the magic of childhood - to which I responded that it doesn't, and you gave no rebuttal. Then you said lying to children is sometimes necessary, to which I agree, but I don't think lying about Santa is necessary. Other than that all you've done is straw man my position.

Why the hell should I concede that you're right when you've offered nothing sensible to the discussion?

 

[Laurens]

I agree with Nemesiah - 100%.

You're absolutely right - we should rob children from the mysticism of growing up and childhood fantasy that fosters both imagination and pleasant memories.
Fuck their box. We should light it on fire and tell them that it's just a damned box and not a rocket ship/race car/bakery shop/castle.
We should foster them into a world of cold reality by telling them that their paper sword is no use and that there's no dragons for them to slay, then yell at the teachers for allowing them to read them anything but non-fiction stories because we're all well aware that our kids aren't going to listen to us on this matter.
We should teach them that when they grow up they are (statistically speaking) going to sit behind a desk and work there until they are fired, then find a new job, and then reach a weak retirement and die. Along those lines we should teach them that there is a high divorce rate and that there's no such thing as riding off into the sunset with that princess from 4th block.
We should steamroll all of these fantasies from the absolute start before they start getting petty inspirational ideas from them and developing silly dreams.

I mean, there's absolutely no reason at all to humor these fantasies right?

:roll:

I think that these kinds of arguments completely miss the point of those who disagree with the notion of convincing children that Santa is real.

I've never said that all childhood imagination should be replaced with stern realism. Just that you should not convince them that the box is really a spaceship etc. That doesn't mean you should stop them pretending by any means.

My position is simple; you shouldn't tell unnecessary lies to children and I see no reason to make an exception for Santa Claus.

I wouldn't care if my children decided to play games and pretending around the notion of Santa, I just would not interject their playing by telling them 'hey kids you know that Santa is really a real person right?'. That is all. It's amazing how people translate that into wanting to destroy their childhood, and crush their dreams...

 

[Nelipot]

 

[tuxbox]

Father: Do you know why you are in trouble son?

Son: Yes dad, I got busted for lying to my teacher.

Father: You know better than that. Remember the story of the "Little Boy Who Cried Wolf"?

Son: Yeah yeah, no one believes a liar.

Father: I am sorry, but you are grounded. No Xbox for a week.

**One week later**

Father: I think you have learned you lesson. Here's your Xbox back.

Son: Thanks dad. By the way, there is this new game coming out, can I get it?

Father: Not right now, but put it on your Christmas list and maybe Santa will get it for you.