PZ Myers and the Definition of Trolling

[mick1le2pick]

PZ Myers and the Principle of Free Expression

C0nc0rdance, makes several good points in this video. However, just because YouTube technically owns the channel does not mean the user has to put up with hateful comments from internet trolls. Blocking comments and ratings is not denying anyone's write to free speech. If someone disagrees with the content of a video, they can always counter with a video of their own. I mostly watch music videos on YT and while searching for a cover of “The Unforgiven” from Metallica, I came across one from a rather homely kid performing both the clean and distorted guitar parts of the song. Comments and ratings had both been disabled and she had an annotation which went a little something like this, “I disabled comments because of all the death threats and people telling me to kill myself”. Like it or not, evil people are on the net and people have a right not to be bullied.

That's basically what people like VenomfangX have been saying all along, in fact PZ is worse than VFX, because while they both disable ratings VFX is no longer as bad when it comes to censoring comments.

It's not that you can't criticize him, it's that he trying to make it harder for you to critiz him and get him and his followers to see them, remember people always managed to critize VFX and others, but it's the intentions that matter. Also outside criticism is easier to ignore and thus helps with groupthink.

 

[australopithecus]

"The right to free speech" does not include posting on YouTube videos. PZ doesn't have to allow anyone to do so. It's not something I agree with, but such a right is not extended to Internet fora.

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

"The right to free speech" does not include posting on YouTube videos. PZ doesn't have to allow anyone to do so. It's not something I agree with, but such a right is not extended to Internet fora.

The problem here is that your very swan song is what the likes of ShockOfGod, NephilimFree, and the like all get highly criticized on multiple levels for saying.

When does anyone get off on saying "I'm just keeping out trolls" in one instance, but then condemn people for the exact same reason in another?

 

[australopithecus]

As I said, I don't agree with it. it stifles honest debate which how learning progresses, but the internet isn't a street corner. It's not a political forum, it's no real life. It's the internet. PZ, Shock, Neph et al, in fact anyone, have no obligation to allow people to comment on anything. If they want to give bullshit non-justifications then that's up to them. I'd much prefer they be honest and say "I'm not allowing comments because I don't want to.".

 

[mick1le2pick]

As I said, I don't agree with it. it stifles honest debate which how learning progresses, but the internet isn't a street corner. It's not a political forum, it's no real life. It's the internet. PZ, Shock, Neph et al, in fact anyone, have no obligation to allow people to comment on anything. If they want to give bullshit non-justifications then that's up to them. I'd much prefer they be honest and say "I'm not allowing comments because I don't want to.".

Just because you can do something doesn't mean we can't criticize them for it.

 

[australopithecus]

Never said you couldn't.

 

[Aught3]

Oh this is the best place ever for an irony ban, but I just can't do it

 

[mick1le2pick]

PZ Myers and the Principle of Free Expression

C0nc0rdance, makes several good points in this video. However, just because YouTube technically owns the channel does not mean the user has to put up with hateful comments from internet trolls. Blocking comments and ratings is not denying anyone's write to free speech. If someone disagrees with the content of a video, they can always counter with a video of their own. I mostly watch music videos on YT and while searching for a cover of “The Unforgiven” from Metallica, I came across one from a rather homely kid performing both the clean and distorted guitar parts of the song. Comments and ratings had both been disabled and she had an annotation which went a little something like this, “I disabled comments because of all the death threats and people telling me to kill myself”. Like it or not, evil people are on the net and people have a right not to be bullied.

There is a difference between something like that and someone making an argument, I fail to see why she had to disable ratings as well.

And while you are allowed to censor comments and disable rating, that does not mean you should, this is very simple, like the way you are allowed to be act like a selfish douche, it's within your rights, but it still deserves criticism.

 

[mick1le2pick]

Never said you couldn't.

Actually I think we pretty much agree, I think while he is allowed to censor, PZ is wrong to do so, and it has downsides of it making to harder for criticism to be viewed, as well as encouraging groupthink.

What about you?

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

Have you been to FTB?

It's like walking onto /r/atheism in Reddit and trying to have an honest discussion.

 

[Prolescum]

I don't care about any of these people or their opinions. I will point out, though, that reading this thread gives the impression that PZ is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. Leave comments open, get called a cunt every five minutes by Thunderf00t's lackeys, turn 'em off, get called a cunt every five minutes everywhere else.

Not sure I'd waste that much time on this... surely there are far greater topics to be self-righteous or indignant about.

 

[mick1le2pick]

I don't care about any of these people or their opinions. I will point out, though, that reading this thread gives the impression that PZ is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. Leave comments open, get called a cunt every five minutes by Thunderf00t's lackeys, turn 'em off, get called a cunt every five minutes everywhere else.

Not sure I'd waste that much time on this... surely there are far greater topics to be self-righteous or indignant about.

He should be able to handle criticism if he is such a major figure.

Most of the criticism is for his censorship anyway.

 

[Prolescum]

I don't care about any of these people or their opinions. I will point out, though, that reading this thread gives the impression that PZ is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. Leave comments open, get called a cunt every five minutes by Thunderf00t's lackeys, turn 'em off, get called a cunt every five minutes everywhere else.

Not sure I'd waste that much time on this... surely there are far greater topics to be self-righteous or indignant about.

He should be able to handle criticism if he is such a major figure.

Non sequitur. I can list dozens of "major figures" from practically any field who are extremely poor at handling criticism. In other words, being able to handle criticism is in no way a prerequisite for being a "major figure".

Most of the criticism is for his censorship anyway.

Is it established that it is censorship? Personally, I do not believe so. Which makes me wonder what exactly it is. Any guesses?

 

[Inferno]

It's not censorship, PZ links to his blog where his opponents can disagree with him. He just doesn't want to do it on YT for two reasons:
Comments disappear after a few other comments, so it's difficult to hold a discussion. Also, character limit.
Looking at two different sites to check comments is annoying.

Note again what I showed before: PZ bans LESS people than most other fora I've seen, us being an exception with even less bans. How is that censorship, exactly?

It's hyped up bullshit, that's what it is.

 

[Visaki]

I suppose PZ could open up his youtube for comments and just make it very clear that he has no interest nor intention to read them and if someone wants to have a discussion with him they should come to his blog. That won't probably happen though since it'd be an admission of being wrong in some level.

 

[Prolescum]

It's not censorship, PZ links to his blog where his opponents can disagree with him. He just doesn't want to do it on YT for two reasons:
Comments disappear after a few other comments, so it's difficult to hold a discussion. Also, character limit.
Looking at two different sites to check comments is annoying.

Note again what I showed before: PZ bans LESS people than most other fora I've seen, us being an exception with even less bans. How is that censorship, exactly?

It's hyped up bullshit, that's what it is.

This was my feeling. Drama-enforced hyperbole. Censorship, indeed :lol:

I suppose PZ could open up his youtube for comments and just make it very clear that he has no interest nor intention to read them and if someone wants to have a discussion with him they should come to his blog. That won't probably happen though since it'd be an admission of being wrong in some level.

What number am I thinking of?

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

I suppose PZ could open up his youtube for comments and just make it very clear that he has no interest nor intention to read them and if someone wants to have a discussion with him they should come to his blog. That won't probably happen though since it'd be an admission of being wrong in some level.

What number am I thinking of?

3.

 

[mick1le2pick]

It's not censorship, PZ links to his blog where his opponents can disagree with him. He just doesn't want to do it on YT for two reasons:
Comments disappear after a few other comments, so it's difficult to hold a discussion. Also, character limit.
Looking at two different sites to check comments is annoying.

Note again what I showed before: PZ bans LESS people than most other fora I've seen, us being an exception with even less bans. How is that censorship, exactly?

It's hyped up bullshit, that's what it is.

It's not censorship, PZ links to his heavily censored board, that you have to sign up to.

Eh, I have to disagree.

As for not banning that many people it's still a lot more censored than the comment section of channels like Thunderf00t, Potholer54 and others, also if he was just moving the comment section, then why did he disable ratings?

 

[Inferno]

It's not censorship, PZ links to his heavily censored board, that you have to sign up to.

Eh, I have to disagree.

As for not banning that many people it's still a lot more censored than the comment section of channels like Thunderf00t, Potholer54 and others, also if he was just moving the comment section, then why did he disable ratings?

Heavily censored board?
Let's not talk crap here and look at the statistics. How long has Pharyngula been online? Ten years, give or take. How many people have been banned? 105. So 10x12 ~ 120. That's not even one person banned per month.

Let's then look at what those people were banned for. (You can still see their posts!)
We don't need to look at David Mabus, we already know he's a looney.
Look at whysosrs, a misogynist of an incredible level. Or this fuckwit. Then there's squiller, another misogynist. A homophobe. A racist misogynist. Someone who condones the murder of innocents.

And some people, as I've already said, go there with the PURPOSE of getting banned. Like this idiot.

And so on. ALL of those people would have been banned on this site as well. They would have been banned on c0nc0rdance's channel, on potholer's channel and also on TF's. This is nothing new. You have NO freedom of speech on someone else's blog/forum/etc. There are certain rules that apply, here as well as elsewhere. If you can't stick to those rules, go and be a cunt elsewhere.

You do understand how that works, right?

As for the rating bit: I don't know, but I'd venture a guess. Disabling comments without disabling ratings is of little value. Let's for a moment imagine you agree that PZ was justified in disabling the comments and move on from there. People would simply drop negative ratings on the video to protest. But that's not PZ's idea of protest and neither is it mine.
YouTube, it has to be admitted, is a bad platform for discussion and protest, at least in these matters. You can do the same thing on a blog*, with a better format to voice those complaints.

*Some might say: But PZ asks members to REGISTER on his blog. So do we, so does YouTube. How is that something new?

 

[Laurens]

I don't particularly care, if PZ Myers wants his own corner of the internet in which he bans people for the merest criticisms of him and his ideas then that's his prerogative. I don't particularly want to hang out at such a place, but there are plenty of better corners on the internet to hang around in. Who cares? Just stay away from him if you don't like him.