Park51 or the "Ground Zero Mosque"

[Dogma's Demise]

Okay so I wanted to say a word or two about this Islamic community center Park51, built very close to Ground Zero (where WTC fell). I know it's a bit of an old issue now, but I never really got the chance to talk about it.

Now, this may come as a shock to a few of you, but I think they had a right to build it. After all, they bought the land, they brought in the money, federal funding was denied as it should be it in any secular world: http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/united-states/no-federal-funds-for-islamic-community-center-says-group-60675.html


When I say "they had a right" I don't mean however that I think this idea is worthy of any kind of respect. I think it's a tasteless and provocative gesture, an insult to the victims of 9/11 to construct anything "Islamic" (community center, mosque, both etc.) in close proximity to Ground Zero. (Keep in mind, even though it's not ON Ground Zero, it's still on a place where debris fell.)

(Did I mention it was initially called "Cordoba House" - Hmmm a reference to Islamic conquest of Cordoba? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%B3rdoba,_Andalusia#History )

It would be akin to, well let's say a pack of street dogs attack and kill some children (and this wouldn't be hypothetical at all, my country Romania has a very serious street dog infestation). And then a few years later The Romanian Misanthropic Association Vier Pfoten or some other animal welfare nazi NGO decided to build a center for promotion of dog welfare specifically on that same street on in relatively close proximity where the children were killed. Let's say they also applied for state funding (yes, taking money from everyone, including the victims' families to support their bullshit plans).

Yes, now that would be very tasteless as well. It never happened, but then again I wouldn't be surprised given the idiocy frequently displayed by these animal welfare activists: lies, propaganda, victim-blaming, fueling the problem etc. (Some of you westerners may have seen the negative coverage my country gets on this issue, when all people here want are clean streets without dogs running free and biting people.)

Or another example: WBC funeral protests. Completely inappropriate, provocative, degrading, fucking retarded, you name it.


(And to clarify in advance, I'm not against animal welfare - within reason - I'm just tired of this bullshit that it's somehow "immoral" to put a dog to sleep, even when painless, humane methods are used.)

 

[ImprobableJoe]

You DO realize that your obsessive bigotry is painfully obvious to everyone, right?

 

[televator]

I hate it when people make feel like I have to defend the religious. This particular topic, Ive had more than my fill of.

 

[australopithecus]

Oh, for fuck sake...

 

[Laurens]

I rolled my eyes so hard they nearly fell out...

First of all this story is old as fuck. Secondly, the whole reason you find Park51 tasteless is predicated upon a bigoted notion that all Muslims hold some responsibility for, or have some kind of plot to exploit 9/11 and the grief surrounding it. They don't, the very notion is bigoted and paranoiac.

 

[Frenger]

JESSSUUUSSSSS CHRRIISSSTTTTTT MAAAAKKEKEEEEEEE ITTTTTT STTTOOOOPPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Laurens]

Things worth pointing out are:

- Park51 is not a mosque
- There has been an actual mosque a few blocks away from ground zero for a long time. What the fuck does it matter?

 

[Frenger]

Things worth pointing out are:

- Park51 is not a mosque
- There has been an actual mosque a few blocks away from ground zero for a long time. What the fuck does it matter?

Other things worth pointing out.

Dogmas demise is a ridiculous bigot.

 

[Dogma's Demise]

I rolled my eyes so hard they nearly fell out...

First of all this story is old as fuck. Secondly, the whole reason you find Park51 tasteless is predicated upon a bigoted notion that all Muslims hold some responsibility for, or have some kind of plot to exploit 9/11 and the grief surrounding it. They don't, the very notion is bigoted and paranoiac.

I hate to tell you this but Islam IS (indirectly) to blame for 9/11 and out of respect for the victims' families they should have voluntarily found another place to build it. But no, they chose a location as close as possible to Ground Zero. And sure you could make indirect connections between other things, but because Islam isn't even true and has brought very little of value to humanity makes it all the worse.

9/11 would have NEVER happened without Islam and its teachings of retribution ("slay them wherever you find them" rings any bell?), Ummah, its promises of an afterlife for martyrs etc. Without Islam none of those psychopaths would have been persuaded to participate in such an atrocity.

Now sure you can argue all you want that suicide can never be martyrdom, but humans being humans will always interpret scripture the way they see fit if it's not clear enough, we've seen it before with the many denominations and sects of Christianity. You can also argue about how Islam prevents killing of innocents, so they'll just rationalize that nobody is really innocent since they elect the people who implement the kind of foreign policy Al Qaida doesn't like.

Ummah is very crucial in all this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ummah It unifies the entire Islamic world under a single banner, how else to convince Mr. Random from Egypt or whatever to get involved in a fight that under almost any other circumstance shouldn't even be his? Let's remember some of the bullshit reasons:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motives_for_the_September_11_attacks

Sanctions against Iraq? Really? I mean let's ignore that the country invaded Kuwait and it was ruled by a bloody dictator capable of using dangerous weapons against his own people. Besides, why the fuck would people from Saudi Arabia, UAE, Lebanon and Egypt (some of the countries of origin of the hijackers) care? See how Ummah can be exploited in the wrong hands? These people don't stand up for a cause before it's right. They stand up for a cause in favor of Muslims. (Or what they perceived to be in favor of Muslims at least.)

Presence of troops in Saudi Arabia? Well despite the fact that Saudi Arabia was NOT at war with USA, in fact they were allies.

Support for Israel? Honestly, don't get me started. Only the religion of peace can convince people to whine about a portion of land the size of New Jersey because there are Jews ruling it (which by the way, were already there about 1900-2000 years ago and had a bigger nation before they were driven out by invaders while Palestine has NEVER been a nation in that region, why didn't they whine about independence under the Ottoman or when West Bank and Gaza were under Jordan and Egypt rule?).

 

[australopithecus]

Do you actually have opinions that aren't the party line of Condell and tf00t? Islam isn't to blame for 9/11, it's motivations were political. The weak as piss justification may have been religion but to suggest it is the reason for the attacks is laughable.

 

[Dogma's Demise]

Do you actually have opinions that aren't the party line of Condell and tf00t? Islam isn't to blame for 9/11, it's motivations were political. The weak as piss justification may have been religion but to suggest it is the reason for the attacks is laughable.

Well Pat Condell as far as I know thinks Park51 should be illegal. I don't think it should be illegal, I just don't think it's a good idea.

And like I pointed out, Islam was a crucial ingredient in all of this. Do you really think that if they were atheists, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Scientologists etc. they would have committed the exact same act, or something anywhere near this grand scale? It's very unlikely, for example why the fuck would a non-Muslim Saudi or non-Muslim Egyptian care about Iraq sanctions or the Palestinian cause to the point where he wants to get involved and attack America? Why would they be bothered by NON-HOSTILE kafir troops stationed in Saudi Arabia to the point where they want to blow sky-scrappers up and kill themselves doing it?


Sure, I can see some nationalist terrorists coming about without Islam, but I seriously doubt they would be capable of something on the scale of 9/11.

 

[Duvelthehobbit666]

Do you actually have opinions that aren't the party line of Condell and tf00t? Islam isn't to blame for 9/11, it's motivations were political. The weak as piss justification may have been religion but to suggest it is the reason for the attacks is laughable.

Well Pat Condell as far as I know thinks Park51 should be illegal. I don't think it should be illegal, I just don't think it's a good idea.

And like I pointed out, Islam was a crucial ingredient in all of this. Do you really think that if they were atheists, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Scientologists etc. they would have committed the exact same act, or something anywhere near this grand scale? It's very unlikely, for example why the fuck would a non-Muslim Saudi or non-Muslim Egyptian care about Iraq sanctions or the Palestinian cause to the point where he wants to get involved and attack America? Why would they be bothered by NON-HOSTILE kafir troops stationed in Saudi Arabia to the point where they want to blow sky-scrappers up and kill themselves doing it?


Sure, I can see some nationalist terrorists coming about without Islam, but I seriously doubt they would be capable of something on the scale of 9/11.

Crusades, or if we look to more modern times, Bosnia.

 

[Frenger]

They have churches in Nothern Uganda even though Kony has massacred a huge number of the population in the name of the ten commandments.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Is it possible to explain things to a bigot? I doubt it, considering that this issue is several years old and our current bigot apparently has done zero non-bigot educating of himself on the subject.

For those of you who aren't moronic bigots, here's the scoop: There were Muslims living in NYC before 9/11, and some of them worked in and died in the terrorist attacks, and even had prayer rooms in the towers. I know that comes as a shock to moronic bigots, but America in general and NYC in particular has a rich and vibrant history of multiculturalism, part of our national character in fact. Americans who worship Allah are members of our communities with full rights and everything, much to the horror of the bigots.

The Muslims living in neighborhoods surrounding the WTC still live there today, and as their population grows they do what every other group does and build more mosques and community centers and what-not. Where else is a community supposed to build their community center, in someone else's community? Should they move their community center to Spanish Harlem?

One other thing, and this is maybe the most important thing: Dogma's Demise doesn't have any fucking right to invoke 9/11. Pat Condell can shut his piehole about 9/11, he has no claim over it either. All the bigots in Europe and across America should fuck off already. You know who CAN invoke 9/11? The Muslim Americans at Park 51, who were there on 9/11 and suffered the horrors of a terrorist attack on their neighborhood. Those people lost friends and family, those people choked on the smoke and ashes, those folks had to rebuild their community and their lives after 9/11. How DARE bigots go after the victims of terrorism who happen to be Muslim?!?!

 

[Frenger]

Is it possible to explain things to a bigot? I doubt it, considering that this issue is several years old and our current bigot apparently has done zero non-bigot educating of himself on the subject.

For those of you who aren't moronic bigots, here's the scoop: There were Muslims living in NYC before 9/11, and some of them worked in and died in the terrorist attacks, and even had prayer rooms in the towers. I know that comes as a shock to moronic bigots, but America in general and NYC in particular has a rich and vibrant history of multiculturalism, part of our national character in fact. Americans who worship Allah are members of our communities with full rights and everything, much to the horror of the bigots.

The Muslims living in neighborhoods surrounding the WTC still live there today, and as their population grows they do what every other group does and build more mosques and community centers and what-not. Where else is a community supposed to build their community center, in someone else's community? Should they move their community center to Spanish Harlem?

One other thing, and this is maybe the most important thing: Dogma's Demise doesn't have any fucking right to invoke 9/11. Pat Condell can shut his piehole about 9/11, he has no claim over it either. All the bigots in Europe and across America should fuck off already. You know who CAN invoke 9/11? The Muslim Americans at Park 51, who were there on 9/11 and suffered the horrors of a terrorist attack on their neighborhood. Those people lost friends and family, those people choked on the smoke and ashes, those folks had to rebuild their community and their lives after 9/11. How DARE bigots go after the victims of terrorism who happen to be Muslim?!?!

In every way, a spectacular response. If I had a hat I would be tipping it in your direction.

 

[Dogma's Demise]

Oh I see what you did there, trying to turn this around saying I "go after the victims of terrorism who happen to be Muslim"...

So let me ask you this: How is Mr. Feisal Abdul Rauf a "victim"? How are any of the main figures behind Park51 victims?


Oh and by the way, America is not "multicultural", it's more like "melting pot".

 

[ImprobableJoe]

The other part of this is that the bigots are engaged in an act of projection, starting by presuming that their hatred of all Muslims goes both ways. Since Pat Condell and his ilk would gleefully dance on the smoking corpses of Muslim children, they assume that all Muslims feel the same way about non-Muslims. Then in a bit of make believe mind-reading, they impart their own motives on the NYC Muslim community, ignore the history and reality of that community, and decide that this is some sort of Muslim extremist incursion into the WTC area in order to celebrate 9/11.

Also semi-ironically... the Park 51 address was available for cheap because it had been damaged in the terrorist attack.

 

[australopithecus]

"Be careful when you fight monsters, lest you become one". Why the quote? Put it this way, if I removed the names of the posters and who they're referring to I'd bet you'd have a hard time telling the difference between Dogma's and Vyckro's posts. Islam is to you what atheism is to Vyck, and the way you both address these is the same in all but grasp of the English language.

 

[The Felonius Pope]

When I say "they had a right" I don't mean however that I think this idea is worthy of any kind of respect. I think it's a tasteless and provocative gesture, an insult to the victims of 9/11 to construct anything "Islamic" (community center, mosque, both etc.) in close proximity to Ground Zero.(Keep in mind, even though it's not ON Ground Zero, it's still on a place where debris fell.)

Wait... So we shouldn't put churches near places where Christians have killed in the name of God? My neighbor back in Mesa had a dead body dumped onto his driveway, should he avoid parking his car there? People pour their dead relative's ashes into the Grand Canyon, should hikers be banned from walking there?

What about the wreck of the Titanic? Sea creatures shit in the ocean, you know. Isn't that horribly disrespectful to the people who died? What about the catacombs of Paris? Isn't it immoral to build a city over a giant, underground cemetery? How about the fire bombings of Dresden? Thousands of people died in the city during World War Two, does that mean people shouldn't be living there nowadays? Poland had plenty of concentration camps, should we abandon the country?

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Wait... So we shouldn't put churches near places where Christians have killed in the name of God? My neighbor back in Mesa had a dead body dumped onto his driveway, should he avoid parking his car there? People pour their dead relative's ashes into the Grand Canyon, should hikers be banned from walking there?

What about the wreck of the Titanic? Sea creatures shit in the ocean, you know. Isn't that horribly disrespectful to the people who died? What about the catacombs of Paris? Isn't it immoral to build a city over a giant, underground cemetery? How about the fire bombings of Dresden? Thousands of people died in the city during World War Two, does that mean people shouldn't be living there nowadays? Poland had plenty of concentration camps, should we abandon the country?

See, that's thinking rationally... bigotry depends on avoiding that sort of thinking. Bigotry depends on avoiding that the Muslims living in that neighborhood lived there for decades before 9/11, raising their children and going to work and having people over for dinner and going to their churches and living their lives in their community... and their country, as Americans. Their normal American behavior from decades back until 9/10/2001 didn't suddenly become "tasteless" or "provocative" on 9/11/2001.

The only thing "tasteless" and "provocative" is the behavior of bigots like Condell and Thunderf00t and DD, who want to impose their hatred on a community that they have ZERO part in, and in doing so are insulting the memory of the people who were actually attacked.