Opinions and discussion on Satanism

[ImprobableJoe]

Yea, it's called clarification and you do it when someone finds it hard to comprehend what may seem rather simple to you.

Also, you have not actually responded to any part of my comment other than taking offence to my mention of you bitching. So if you'd like to respond and actually say why I'm completely in the wrong, feel free.

As for the website, have a look at the actual teachings.

I already pointed out how it insists on conformity BY DEFINITION, and the only reply so far has been "no it doesn't!" and complaints about tone. I have looked at the "teachings" of Satanism... it is a joke, 1960s guru nonsense combined with "vice as a virtue" silliness. Also, insistence on conformity. Look at the website with me for a minute, beyond the front page picture of losers in ridiculous costumes:

We Satanists are our own Gods, and we are the explorers of the Left-Hand Path. We do not bow down before the myths and fictions of the desiccated spiritual followers of the Right-Hand Path.

That's ONE "path" for ALL Satanists. Strike one against individualism.

There are others who would try to mislead you into thinking that they are in some way connected to us, have "evolved" from us, or are in some way taking our place. They are liars. At the time of his death on 29 October, 1997 c.e., Anton LaVey left the Church of Satan under the command of Magistra Blanche Barton,his consort, mother of his third child, Satan Xerxes Carnacki LaVey, and chief administrative officer of the Church for the preceding 15 years and, at that time, the officially appointed High Priestess. Anton LaVey took the preservation of his Church seriously, and thus appointed many individuals to the Priesthood of Mendes to be his Devil's Advocates, and this Priesthood,along with the Order of the Trapezoid and the Council of Nine,continued working with Magistra Barton to forward the iconoclastic philosophy synthesized by LaVey. On Walpurgisnacht of XXXVI, High Priestess Barton appointed Peter H. Gilmore as High Priest, and Peggy Nadramia as Grand Mistress of the Temple,Magistra Templi Rex. On Walpurgisnacht of XXXVII, Blanche Barton and Peggy Nadramia exchanged positions, so that Magistra Nadramia is the new High Priestess, and Magistra Barton is Magistra Templi Rex, the chairmistress of the Council of Nine.

There is no evolving away from the "one true path." There is one rule, one way, one philosophy that LaVey took great pains to preserve. "Just be yourself" doesn't require this level of adherence and preservation of strict orthodoxy. Strike two!

The Nine Satanic Statements

from The Satanic Bible, ,©1969

by Anton Szandor LaVey

1. Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence!

2. Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams!

3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit!

4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates!

5. Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek!

6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires!

7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his "divine spiritual and intellectual development," has become the most vicious animal of all!

8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!



9. Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years!

The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth

by Anton Szandor LaVey ,©1967

[Spanish, Croation]



1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.

2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.

3. When in another's lair, show him respect or else do not go there.

4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.

5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.

6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.

7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.

8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.

9. Do not harm little children.

10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.

11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.

The Nine Satanic Sins

by Anton Szandor LaVey ,©1987



1. Stupidity,The top of the list for Satanic Sins. The Cardinal Sin of Satanism. It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful. Ignorance is one thing, but our society thrives increasingly on stupidity. It depends on people going along with whatever they are told. The media promotes a cultivated stupidity as a posture that is not only acceptable but laudable. Satanists must learn to see through the tricks and cannot afford to be stupid.

2. Pretentiousness,Empty posturing can be most irritating and isn't applying the cardinal rules of Lesser Magic. On equal footing with stupidity for what keeps the money in circulation these days. Everyone's made to feel like a big shot, whether they can come up with the goods or not.

3. Solipsism,Can be very dangerous for Satanists. Projecting your reactions, responses and sensibilities onto someone who is probably far less attuned than you are. It is the mistake of expecting people to give you the same consideration, courtesy and respect that you naturally give them. They won't. Instead, Satanists must strive to apply the dictum of "Do unto others as they do unto you." It's work for most of us and requires constant vigilance lest you slip into a comfortable illusion of everyone being like you. As has been said, certain utopias would be ideal in a nation of philosophers, but unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, from a Machiavellian standpoint) we are far from that point.

4. Self-deceit,It's in the "Nine Satanic Statements" but deserves to be repeated here. Another cardinal sin. We must not pay homage to any of the sacred cows presented to us, including the roles we are expected to play ourselves. The only time self-deceit should be entered into is when it's fun, and with awareness. But then, it's not self-deceit!

5. Herd Conformity,That's obvious from a Satanic stance. It's all right to conform to a person's wishes, if it ultimately benefits you. But only fools follow along with the herd, letting an impersonal entity dictate to you. The key is to choose a master wisely instead of being enslaved by the whims of the many.

6. Lack of Perspective,Again, this one can lead to a lot of pain for a Satanist. You must never lose sight of who and what you are, and what a threat you can be, by your very existence. We are making history right now, every day. Always keep the wider historical and social picture in mind. That is an important key to both Lesser and Greater Magic. See the patterns and fit things together as you want the pieces to fall into place. Do not be swayed by herd constraints,know that you are working on another level entirely from the rest of the world.

7. Forgetfulness of Past Orthodoxies,Be aware that this is one of the keys to brainwashing people into accepting something new and different, when in reality it's something that was once widely accepted but is now presented in a new package. We are expected to rave about the genius of the creator and forget the original. This makes for a disposable society.

8. Counterproductive Pride,That first word is important. Pride is great up to the point you begin to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The rule of Satanism is: if it works for you, great. When it stops working for you, when you've painted yourself into a corner and the only way out is to say, I'm sorry, I made a mistake, I wish we could compromise somehow, then do it.

9. Lack of Aesthetics,This is the physical application of the Balance Factor. Aesthetics is important in Lesser Magic and should be cultivated. It is obvious that no one can collect any money off classical standards of beauty and form most of the time so they are discouraged in a consumer society, but an eye for beauty, for balance, is an essential Satanic tool and must be applied for greatest magical effectiveness. It's not what's supposed to be pleasing,it's what is. Aesthetics is a personal thing, reflective of one's own nature, but there are universally pleasing and harmonious configurations that should not be denied.

Complex lists governing behavior? They can give lip service to individualism all they want, but that is contradicted by their need to create intricate rules, and present pages upon pages of guiding principles for the followers of Satanism. Strike three!

Also, the funny costumes!!

 

[theatheistguy]

I already pointed out how it insists on conformity BY DEFINITION

Because it ends in an -ism does not mean it insists on conformity.

That's ONE "path" for ALL Satanists. Strike one against individualism.

One path that says we don't bow down myths and fictions. Strike one against you.

There is no evolving away from the "one true path." There is one rule, one way, one philosophy that LaVey took great pains to preserve. "Just be yourself" doesn't require this level of adherence and preservation of strict orthodoxy. Strike two!

There is no mention here of "one true path" so why quote it? Yea and I, as well as many others, take great pains to preserve freedoms and rights to life, education, food, speech, expression, etc because it is very easily perverted and taken away. Strike two.

Complex lists governing behavior? They can give lip service to individualism all they want, but that is contradicted by their need to create intricate rules, and present pages upon pages of guiding principles for the followers of Satanism. Strike three!

Also, the funny costumes!!

Yes, some are stated as rules such as don't harm little children, however, with religion, this is followed by, if you break these rules we will fuck you up for eternity. This appears not to threaten anything of the sort nor promise anything for following them. These are suggestions at best as how to lead your life. I have met 'true' satanists (I use this not in the sense of 'true Christian' but in reference to La Veyian satanists) and they have not talked about their 'faith' or 'belief', nor asked me to join.

This is not religion, nor is it false goth-like individualism, this is a philosophy which emphasises joy and pleasure, yet not at another's expense, and discourages things like undue pride, but it does all this without stating how you are meant to achieve these things, allowing people to be individuals. Strike three.

Oh, and I love the costumes.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

One path that says we don't bow down myths and fictions.
Oh, and I love the costumes.

So, you're part of the cult?

That question goes to Jotto999 as well.

 

[theatheistguy]

So, you're part of the cult?

That question goes to Jotto999 as well.

lol love it, not even an attempt to respond.

No, I'm not a Satanist, hence my saying that I'd met 'true' Satanists. I don't even see how this is relevant.

 

[Ozymandyus]

The whole idea reaks of childish rebellion and make believe. If you are serious about these sorts of values, there are plenty of non-douchey ways to be the kind of person that follows his/her bliss. To brand what can be decent values ideals with this kind of heavily laden imagery, much of which is counterproductive to your goals is just foolishness. Making a church structure out of it is even more foolishness, and is indeed antithetical to the nature of the ideals.

Of course, I personally think the values themselves are way overrated too.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

lol love it, not even an attempt to respond.

No, I'm not a Satanist, hence my saying that I'd met 'true' Satanists. I don't even see how this is relevant.

I was just curious. I've already addressed your non-points in previous posts. Your replies have amounted to "nuh-uh!" That's cool... well, actually "nuh-uh!" :lol:

If you don't like my tone, read Ozymandyus's post...

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Of course, I personally think the values themselves are way overrated too.

They aren't even "values" are they? "Be a dick" and "do the opposite of what your parents approve of" aren't values, it is a formalized temper tantrum against having to be a mature, emotionally-healthy adult member of society.

 

[theatheistguy]

I was just curious. I've already addressed your non-points in previous posts. Your replies have amounted to "nuh-uh!" That's cool... well, actually "nuh-uh!" :lol:

If you don't like my tone, read Ozymandyus's post...

If you've responded to the points in my last post then feel free to c&p them here. Also, disagreeing with you does not mean all I've said is nuh-uh, I've expressed and explained my disagreement clearly.

The whole idea reaks of childish rebellion and make believe. If you are serious about these sorts of values, there are plenty of non-douchey ways to be the kind of person that follows his/her bliss. To brand what can be decent values ideals with this kind of heavily laden imagery, much of which is counterproductive to your goals is just foolishness. Making a church structure out of it is even more foolishness, and is indeed antithetical to the nature of the ideals.

Of course, I personally think the values themselves are way overrated too.

Childish rebellion and make believe how? They do not believe in the supernatural. Indeed there are ways to express yourself without the church structure and 'heavily laden imagery' however, in this case they have chosen to include a community aspect and use the imagery of a religion as representation, but they do not worship this imagery.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

If you've responded to the points in my last post then feel free to c&p them here. Also, disagreeing with you does not mean all I've said is nuh-uh, I've expressed and explained my disagreement clearly.

Have you?

I saw a "nuh-uh!" when you posted:

Because it ends in an -ism does not mean it insists on conformity.

I saw a failure to respond to my actual comment, and a creation of a strawman, when you posted:

There is no mention here of "one true path" so why quote it? Yea and I, as well as many others, take great pains to preserve freedoms and rights to life, education, food, speech, expression, etc because it is very easily perverted and taken away. Strike two.

Then you threw out another "nuh-uh!":

This is not religion, nor is it false goth-like individualism, this is a philosophy which emphasises joy and pleasure, yet not at another's expense, and discourages things like undue pride, but it does all this without stating how you are meant to achieve these things, allowing people to be individuals. Strike three.

I posted quotes from the site, plus explanations for my viewpoint. All you did was say "no it isn't" and pretended that you made an argument.

It is a silly subculture of immature losers... bigger losers than the goth kids, because they claim all sorts of cultish nonsense.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I think one of the problems with Satanism is that while everyone wants to say that they are an individual, and following their own path, the reality is that no one actually want to do it. So, instead of just living their life and doing what they want, they join a counter-culture movement that provides a false sense of rebellion and rejection of everything the mainstream stands for, while embracing the exact same thing with a fresh coat of (usually black) paint, and an even more strict set of rules and restrictions. They get the comfort of belonging and being told what to do, but because it is a "different" group and leader than everyone else follows, they can make believe that they are being an individual.

 

[theatheistguy]

Ok let me try and make this real simple for you, as you appear to have trouble either understanding me or admitting you're wrong. I am not a Satanist, nor am I defending their decision to build a church around their philosophy, I'm just defending them against your misconceptions.

I saw a "nuh-uh!" when you posted:
Because it ends in an -ism does not mean it insists on conformity.

Again this is me disagreeing with you, you claimed that it ended in an -ism it must mean it's conformist, I said it did not necessarily mean this, which is accurate, not a nuh-uh. However, if you would like defend your position then I'm willing to listen, but so far, nothing.

I saw a failure to respond to my actual comment, and a creation of a strawman, when you posted:
There is no mention here of "one true path" so why quote it? Yea and I, as well as many others, take great pains to preserve freedoms and rights to life, education, food, speech, expression, etc because it is very easily perverted and taken away. Strike two.

You made no comment other than to misquote "one true path" and that there was no way to diverge from it, I then asked you where you got this quote from (no response) and explained that someone taking great pains to preserve something was not necessarily a sign of conformity or insane orthodoxy.

Then you threw out another "nuh-uh!":
This is not religion, nor is it false goth-like individualism, this is a philosophy which emphasises joy and pleasure, yet not at another's expense, and discourages things like undue pride, but it does all this without stating how you are meant to achieve these things, allowing people to be individuals. Strike three.

Ok, I admit this one was poorly explained, but a religion is a worship or belief in a deity or deities, Satanism is not this, so again this is not a nuh-uh, but a disagreement.

I posted quotes from the site, plus explanations for my viewpoint. All you did was say "no it isn't" and pretended that you made an argument.

It is a silly subculture of immature losers... bigger losers than the goth kids, because they claim all sorts of cultish nonsense.

I obviously didn't just say "no it isn't" so I believe you're the one using a strawman, and calling them "immature losers" is not helping your position.

I'm not going to get into a stretched out, annoying, back and forth with you, so unless you post something of worth, don't expect a response.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Ok let me try and make this real simple for you, as you appear to have trouble either understanding me or admitting you're wrong.

You're wasting my time with your blatant dishonesty and insulting attitude.

 

[Ozymandyus]

Childish rebellion and make believe how? They do not believe in the supernatural. Indeed there are ways to express yourself without the church structure and 'heavily laden imagery' however, in this case they have chosen to include a community aspect and use the imagery of a religion as representation, but they do not worship this imagery.

They are angry at establishments and obviously especially churches, and have clearly chosen the imagery with a main purpose of making such establishments angry. They can try to pretend to justify such imagery by redefining it, but it is exactly like the child that gets tattoos, or ears pierced, or wears dark clothing and makeup and then gives their little reasons to their parents like 'I'm expressing my individuality, just like everyone else,'. The make-believe comes in the form of making yourself into anti-church complete with priests and bishops and founders and dressing up and all this crap.

Its clear to me that it is meant to piss people off and while I have no problem with that, its not a foundation for a good value system - especially one that claims to not care how you arrive at your happiness.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

They are angry at establishments and obviously especially churches, and have clearly chosen the imagery with a main purpose of making such establishments angry. They can try to pretend to justify such imagery by redefining it, but it is exactly like the child that gets tattoos, or ears pierced, or wears dark clothing and makeup and then gives their little reasons to their parents like 'I'm expressing my individuality, just like everyone else,'. The make-believe comes in the form of making yourself into anti-church complete with priests and bishops and founders and dressing up and all this crap.

Its clear to me that it is meant to piss people off and while I have no problem with that, its not a foundation for a good value system - especially one that claims to not care how you arrive at your happiness.

And unless I'm mistaken, it doesn't suddenly stop being all the things we've said simply because they say it isn't so on their website... or does it? Am I just WAY off base here?

 

[Ozymandyus]

Naw, every teenager tells people they didn't do it to piss off their parents too... Doesn't make it true. While in some sense they are not wrong, their choice of motif is at the very least unconsciously motivated by this sort of pettiness.

When you gather together with like-minded people you are ALWAYS going to be influenced by group think. The assurance we get from people agreeing with our way of thinking is part of what they are rebelling against, and yet they find themselves gathering together to reassure themselves. Part of their idea should be disliking such assurances, if they wanted to be ideologically pure. But the truth is they want to rebel, but still want to be part of a group - thats just how humans work.

I have no problem with the slight hypocrisy, I only really disagree with the chosen imagery which is chosen knowing that it will inspire anger and unhappiness in others - even when the express goal is to let everyone choose their own path.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Naw, every teenager tells people they didn't do it to piss off their parents too... Doesn't make it true. While in some sense they are not wrong, their choice of motif is at the very least unconsciously motivated by this sort of pettiness.

When you gather together with like-minded people you are ALWAYS going to be influenced by group think. The assurance we get from people agreeing with our way of thinking is part of what they are rebelling against, and yet they find themselves gathering together to reassure themselves. Part of their idea should be disliking such assurances, if they wanted to be ideologically pure. But the truth is they want to rebel, but still want to be part of a group - thats just how humans work.

I have no problem with the slight hypocrisy, I only really disagree with the chosen imagery which is chosen knowing that it will inspire anger and unhappiness in others - even when the express goal is to let everyone choose their own path.

I don't have a "problem" with them either. I don't even care about their chosen imagery, which is silly but no sillier than sports fans dressing up like mascots or painting their faces. I find their entire shtick to be nearly 100% harmless, and not offensive to my sensibilities at all.

The closest thing I have to a problem with this whole mess is the HUGE hypocrisy involved in Satanists belonging to a goofy little subculture, and using their position in one group to look down their noses at other groups. Goth kids aren't any more or less silly than Satanists... well, maybe less silly because they are less devoted to an immature "rebellion for the sake of rebellion" subculture. If people want to belong to a group, and derive meaning from joining that group, and pick a philosophy that suits them, that's all well and good. The hypocrisy comes when you pretend that everyone else is wrong for joining the groups and following the philosophies that they choose, while engaging in the sort of rigid orthodoxy and in-group behavior that you claim to be against.

The Church of Satan website starts out by stating: " We Satanists are our own Gods, and we are the explorers of the Left-Hand Path. We do not bow down before the myths and fictions of the desiccated spiritual followers of the Right-Hand Path." Sure, whatever... but then the entire rest of the website is devoted to bowing down before OTHER MYTHS AND FICTIONS. And, really they aren't even NEW myths. They are just the same tired, centuries-old "we reject everything" sort of pseudo-rebellion that embraces the worst aspects of what they claim to reject.

 

[theatheistguy]

You're wasting my time with your blatant dishonesty and insulting attitude.

Oh grow up and just respond to my comments.

 

[Dirigoproductions]

In order to believe in Satanism you have to believe in good and evil which are terms associated with both deities and religion. Satanism is religion and worship "evil" which as noted, is based on religious doctrine.

 

[theatheistguy]

In order to believe in Satanism you have to believe in good and evil which are terms associated with both deities and religion. Satanism is religion and worship "evil" which as noted, is based on religious doctrine.

You're basing this on what? Satanism does not worship anything, although it may be said that in a way it encourages self-worship. Nor does it define or assert definite good and evil.

 

[Dirigoproductions]

Satanism is a belief based on good and evil, just as paganism, wicca and every other religion. Whether one wants to view it as philosophy or religion, its focal point, aka, deity, is the origin of good and evil.

I