Opinions and discussion on Satanism

[Jotto999]

A while ago I decided to do some research on what I was convinced to be a highly misunderstood subject, as I had heard about Satanism before, but there seemed to be highly varying opinions on it. This led me to believe that at least many, if not most opinions on Satanism must be incorrect.

So I did some research, and found out that there seems to be a huge misunderstanding about the subject. There is devil-worshipping, which is the belief that Satan is an actual entity and a supernatural being, just like the devil from Christian mythology. From what I understand, true Satanists view these devil-worshipers as moronic lowlifes who are no better than actual Christians, and they do not want to be associated with devil-worshipping at all.

Then there is real "Satanism", or "LaVeyan Satanism", which differs hugely. Quoted from Wikipedia,

Unlike Theistic Satanism, LaVeyan Satanism does not focus on literally worshiping Satan, but, rather uses "Satan" as a symbol of carnality and earthly values, of man's inherent nature.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaVeyan_Satanism

I find this interesting, and after reading up more on it, I actually saw a lot of wisdom in Satanism's philosophies, especially compared to other religions (although I'm not even sure Satanism should be called a religion, since you only worship 'the god that is yourself', and there is no faith in Satanism).

One of the little bits I particularly saw eye to eye with was:

Thus, combining the traditional rebellious imagery associated with Satan and other relative deities, together with the etymological aspect of the word itself, Satanists claim to be adversaries of mainstream behavior which they define as "herd conformity", seeing it as stifling to individuality, creativity, and progress.

To be honest I think some of Satanism's philosophies are far better than any other religion's. It heavily emphasizes individuality, non-conformity and intelligence - something religion in general seems to badly lack.


But that's just what I think, what is your take on Satanism?

 

[ImprobableJoe]

It heavily emphasizes individuality, non-conformity and intelligence - something religion in general seems to badly lack.

I disagree completely. As I see it, it heavily emphasizes Satanist group-think, conformity to the Satanist "ideal," and not much in the way of thinking. It seems to be the same sort of "individuality" of goth kids who all shop at Hot Topic and listen to all the same depressing bands. It always seems to turn out to be such a strict and phony kind of "non-conformity" that it is really less individualistic than your general mainstream folks.

 

[Jotto999]

I disagree completely. As I see it, it heavily emphasizes Satanist group-think, conformity to the Satanist "ideal," and not much in the way of thinking. It seems to be the same sort of "individuality" of goth kids who all shop at Hot Topic and listen to all the same depressing bands. It always seems to turn out to be such a strict and phony kind of "non-conformity" that it is really less individualistic than your general mainstream folks.

Well, I was under the impression that the goth kids all listening to the same crappy bands buying the same clothes were not actual Satanists, and seemed to me as resembling more like "devil worshippers", as you mentioned, they are all doing the same thing and aren't being individuals at all, they are just going into a subculture. I've read in multiple places that Satanic philosophies strictly emphasize individuality, which would exclude anyone who is just buying into any cheap subculture. So basically, I never saw the goth kids as Satanists, only more idiotic lowlifes who "real" Satanists would not approve of. They are buying into a subculture, but it's not Satanism at all. That's how I see the goth kids.

I'm glad you brought up this bit. All the goth kids who think they are Satanists are definitely not Satanists, and according to the Church of Satan's ideas, they are actually very un-Satanic, so to speak, because true Satanism has little to do with dressing a certain way and acting a certain way. Quite the opposite, actually. If Anton LaVey was still alive today, I am confident he would banish those kids as being ignorant for buying into a cheap subculture and thinking it is Satanism.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Well, I was under the impression that the goth kids all listening to the same crappy bands buying the same clothes were not actual Satanists, and seemed to me as resembling more like "devil worshippers", as you mentioned, they are all doing the same thing and aren't being individuals at all, they are just going into a subculture. I've read in multiple places that Satanic philosophies strictly emphasize individuality, which would exclude anyone who is just buying into any cheap subculture. So basically, I never saw the goth kids as Satanists, only more idiotic lowlifes who "real" Satanists would not approve of. They are buying into a subculture, but it's not Satanism at all. That's how I see the goth kids.

I'm glad you brought up this bit. All the goth kids who think they are Satanists are definitely not Satanists, and according to the Church of Satan's ideas, they are actually very un-Satanic, so to speak, because true Satanism has little to do with dressing a certain way and acting a certain way. Quite the opposite, actually. If Anton LaVey was still alive today, I am confident he would banish those kids as being ignorant for buying into a cheap subculture and thinking it is Satanism.

Bullshit... not that the goth kids are Satanists, because they aren't. But the fact is that Satanists and goth kids are both "non-conformist conformists." They aren't mainstream, but they sure are mindless followers.

Hell, your own words betray the truth! The moment you say the words " true Satanism" and assert that the leader would mock people for not conforming to his ideal, you're admitting that Satanism is a viewpoint that demands conformity.

 

[Jotto999]

Bullshit... not that the goth kids are Satanists, because they aren't. But the fact is that Satanists and goth kids are both "non-conformist conformists." They aren't mainstream, but they sure are mindless followers.

Hell, your own words betray the truth! The moment you say the words " true Satanism" and assert that the leader would mock people for not conforming to his ideal, you're admitting that Satanism is a viewpoint that demands conformity.

If "being as much of an individual as possible" counts as something you can "conform to", then I suppose yes, that would be a contradiction. But I don't think it counts.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

If "being as much of an individual as possible" counts as something you can "conform to", then I suppose yes, that would be a contradiction. But I don't think it counts.

Yeah, as long as you are an individual in the exact way that is approved by Satanism. That's some pretty impressive individualism.

 

[Jotto999]

Yeah, as long as you are an individual in the exact way that is approved by Satanism. That's some pretty impressive individualism.

And what makes you think that the individuality of Satanism is something that must "like this" (which would certainly not be individuality), rather than simply dress how you want and fulfill yourself how you see fit and be yourself in every way you can, like their entire philosophy seems to hint toward?

 

[ImprobableJoe]

What if " dress how you want and fulfill yourself how you see fit and be yourself in every way you can" means dressing like most folks, and going to college and getting a job and getting married and following the so-called American Dream? Being Christian and raising kids and donating to charity and white picket fence? Or buying all your clothing at Hot Topic and listening to the Goth Top Ten?

 

[BipolarBomber]

I have always viewed Satanists as Atheists who are just a lot more obnoxious. Not that I think Atheists are obnoxious (other than the Dawkins fanatics that is) but Satanists tend to dislike...everyone who isn't a Satanist.

I think a good comparison for Satanists really is the "Gothic kids" in high school.

 

[Jotto999]

What if " dress how you want and fulfill yourself how you see fit and be yourself in every way you can" means dressing like most folks, and going to college and getting a job and getting married and following the so-called American Dream? Being Christian and raising kids and donating to charity and white picket fence? Or buying all your clothing at Hot Topic and listening to the Goth Top Ten?

I'm afraid I don't see what your point is, or what you're getting at anymore.

I have always viewed Satanists as Atheists who are just a lot more obnoxious. Not that I think Atheists are obnoxious (other than the Dawkins fanatics that is) but Satanists tend to dislike...everyone who isn't a Satanist.

I think a good comparison for Satanists really is the "Gothic kids" in high school.

I think the difference is that goth kids are buying into a subculture, which automatically excludes them from being individuals. Satanism says to be an individual. Thus, I don't think the goth kids can be considered Satanists, even if they call themselves that. They are phonies.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I'm afraid I don't see what your point is, or what you're getting at anymore.

Oh, I'm not in the least bit surprised...

I think the difference is that goth kids are buying into a subculture, which automatically excludes them from being individuals. Satanism says to be an individual. Thus, I don't think the goth kids can be considered Satanists, even if they call themselves that, or dress in like goths. They are phonies.

Satanism "says" to be an individual, as part of buying into its subculture, the same way that ALL subcultures do. Satanists are phonies, and the worst sort: phony hypocrites who claim to be individuals and superior to others, while buying into the same sort of BS conformism as every other group of losers.

 

[BipolarBomber]

Goth kids claim they're just expressing their individuality too though. They're both doing the whole, "nonconforming together!," type of mentality.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Goth kids claim they're just expressing their individuality too though. They're both doing the whole, "nonconforming together!," type of mentality.

I guess that point was just really confusing!

Every single fringe group claims to be "promoting individuality."

I've got friends that are motorcycle enthusiasts. They talk about freedom and being an individual too. The go on and on and on about it, especially when they are wearing their leather uniforms with matching patches, on their way to strictly supervised and regimented bike rallies.

 

[Jotto999]

Oh, I'm not in the least bit surprised...

That's not very nice. I assure you, there is no need to insult, I really am trying to understand what you're saying. Little jabs like that don't reinforce your points, I'm afraid. I am confident you are much older and wiser than I am, but let's not make this go sour, okay?

Satanism "says" to be an individual, as part of buying into its subculture, the same way that ALL subcultures do. Satanists are phonies, and the worst sort: phony hypocrites who claim to be individuals and superior to others, while buying into the same sort of BS conformism as every other group of losers.

Well first of all, I don't think I would call Satanism a subculture. Not only would that be contradictory to it's defining philosophies, but Satanism is defined as a "religion". I think you're just thinking of the same old goth kids who say they are Satanists but aren't, and not the Satanists who I don't think feel the need to "express to the world just how "individual" they are, rather than just being individuals. All of the people in Anton LaVey videos on youtube and wherever else seemed to me like people who keep to themselves and who really do just be themselves, except of course for when they dress up for "black mass" for theatrical purposes. But outside those masses, they didn't all dress the same, and if it was a subculture, I think they would be dressing similarly.

 

[PuppetXeno]

As far as I have it, I always thought Satanism (LaVeyian -) more or less propagates the "psychopath" values. Think for your own benefit, it's ok to "use" stupid people to do your bidding, adopt a hedonist lifestyle all the way. And don't feel shame or guilt in anything you do.

Satanism in bands and metal and goth subcultures, as far as I witnessed is, is much of a show element, and does not take itself seriously. Rituals performed with (fake) human sacrifice and blood and stuff and a lot of nudity is an exciting sight, nice and perverted, and is an effective way to break loose from conformity and mediocrity and indulge in carnal pleasures before having to tidy up and head back to office for another week... That's pretty much as far as I've seen it.

As for goth kids.. well it's anti-conformist, I suppose neat and cleanly brainwashed christian kids will call it satanism but most of them are pretty innocent. Unless you regard burning incense a tool of the devil.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

That's not very nice. I assure you, there is no need to insult, I really am trying to understand what you're saying. Little jabs like that don't reinforce your points, I'm afraid. I am confident you are much older and wiser than I am, but let's not make this go sour, okay?

Well first of all, I don't think I would call Satanism a subculture. Not only would that be contradictory to it's defining philosophies, but Satanism is defined as a "religion". I think you're just thinking of the same old goth kids who say they are Satanists but aren't, and not the Satanists who I don't think feel the need to "express to the world just how "individual" they are, rather than just being individuals. All of the people in Anton LaVey videos on youtube and wherever else seemed to me like people who keep to themselves and who really do just be themselves, except of course for when they dress up for "black mass" for theatrical purposes. But outside those masses, they didn't all dress the same, and if it was a subculture, I think they would be dressing similarly.

See, you STILL aren't getting it. I'm not saying goth=Satanism, I'm saying that they are similar in that they are all posers. Part of what I'm saying is that when you're part of an "-ism" with a set of rules and a charismatic leader at the front, that's more like a cult than individualism.

The funny thing is that you are describing a "follow the leader" subculture, and then calling it individualism, and your blind spot is so big that even when it is pointed out to you it is still invisible to you. For instance, when you say it isn't a subculture, but it IS a religion that has defining philosophies. It has defining philosophies, and you can certainly tell who doesn't fit in, but it is all about being an individual... that's the rule that everyone has to follow. When you write a book, get thousands of people to buy it, tell them to read and follow it as closely as possible, you can't also say "... and the rule is that you have to be an individual." You can't have it both ways!

 

[theatheistguy]

Ok lets see if I can bring some new life into this debate other that the bitching by Joe here (by the way, when someone says they don't understand what you mean, you don't mock them, you clarify your point).

La Veyian Satanism is much more like a philosophy than a religion in that it involves no worship or faith, does not instruct you on how to lead you life other than 'be yourself' and if that means you have a 9-5 job with 2.4 kids and a golden retriever, as long that is the life you want and it makes you happy, do it!

If someone (or a philosophy) tells you to be an individual it is not telling you to conform, but indeed the very opposite.

The comparison to the goth mentality of "you'd be non-conforming too if you looked just like me" is a completely false one as the current goth image is set in media and by society, whereas satanism has nothing to say other than do what makes you happy (as far as I remember that does not stretch to rape and murder).

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Ok lets see if I can bring some new life into this debate other that the bitching by Joe here (by the way, when someone says they don't understand what you mean, you don't mock them, you clarify your point).

La Veyian Satanism is much more like a philosophy than a religion in that it involves no worship or faith, does not instruct you on how to lead you life other than 'be yourself' and if that means you have a 9-5 job with 2.4 kids and a golden retriever, as long that is the life you want and it makes you happy, do it!

If someone (or a philosophy) tells you to be an individual it is not telling you to conform, but indeed the very opposite.

The comparison to the goth mentality of "you'd be non-conforming too if you looked just like me" is a completely false one as the current goth image is set in media and by society, whereas satanism has nothing to say other than do what makes you happy (as far as I remember that does not stretch to rape and murder).

Another thing when you are trying to convince someone that they are "just bitching" is to do something different than just restating the same thing that didn't convince them the first five times it was said, and actually address their points... you know, instead of just whining about their tone as an excuse to avoid their points.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Oh no, I was so wrong... the Church of Satan totally isn't a bunch of losers playing dress-up!! See, you can tell by their website!
http://www.churchofsatan.com/

 

[theatheistguy]

Another thing when you are trying to convince someone that they are "just bitching" is to do something different than just restating the same thing that didn't convince them the first five times it was said, and actually address their points... you know, instead of just whining about their tone as an excuse to avoid their points.

Yea, it's called clarification and you do it when someone finds it hard to comprehend what may seem rather simple to you.

Also, you have not actually responded to any part of my comment other than taking offence to my mention of you bitching. So if you'd like to respond and actually say why I'm completely in the wrong, feel free.

As for the website, have a look at the actual teachings.