Nationalism and patriotism

[whatsinitforme]

I'm scared of nationalists and patriots - they are too zealous about their country. I think it can lead to dangerous situations.

 

[Andiferous]

I still find this topic quite interesting and insightful, and the forum a bit slow, so I'm going to bump and speak assertively (but maybe long-winded.)

With regard to patriotism being responsible for the American revolution and other major turning points in history and political evolution: as a historian, one can see this event as a flag in history (to some people - not globally), but to say that it was caused by patriotism that had a positive or negative impact isn't directly evident or useful in argument. A person could debate all kinds of oblique specifics and details on the benefits of nationalism or the horror of conflict throughout history, but I'm not making an argument based on some judgmental belief that tends to dodge the question and opens itself up to propaganda and historical conjecture. (Probably why I didn't do well in history in school, and also why I'm using too many words).

And bratty as I can be, I'm not trying to pick on the USA, just respond to the bit about patriotism as positive as proved by the American revolution.

I believe that ideally, humanity exists without borders and extends empathy to as many as it can (ideally, I say). In terms of a world without borders; it seems impossible to experience true empathy or brother/sisterhood with six or so billion people from all over, plus communication, heritage and culture seem like obstacles to real understanding and connection. Not saying I think the Europeans are rats or anything. Just that their problems are further away and are less immediate to many people over here.

But I tend to believe that people in general tend to try to protect and defend what they see as their personal right and the rights of those immediately around them; some might perceive this as patriotism, but I tend to see it as the limit on the average person's empathy radius.

But this desire to protect and be loyal to those closest to oneself often gets spun into nationhood and patriotic pride (maybe I'm tainted by politicians).

Shifting one's love or respect for people around them into passion for a common government seems to betray the feelings of humanism that inspired patriotic feeling in the first place. Maybe I'm wrong...

But I'm assuming that patriotism is usually fueled by feelings of loyalty and the desire to protect those people one cares about. If so, why then shift these positive feelings for humankind to the huge dehumanizing mechanism of government and national boundaries, at the risk of forgetting those people for whom wants to protect? This scenario seems like propaganda

I don't think I know anyone anywhere who doesn't have something negative to say about their own government, but more often than not, tends to reassure themselves that their government is not as bad as others,(or perhaps reassure themselves that their government is as good as possible given comparison). Not many seem really that happy about their governments measured when on their own stick.

So maybe what some people consider patriotic is merely a desire to protect themselves and those close to themselves, (who happen to share a government and common law). It's sad to think that governments may take advantage of this empathy and loyalty to ironically create a potentially destructive machine that causes wars and potential death of those people it is said to protect, while justifying those sacrifices in the name of patriotism itself.

So I don't really get patriotism. Is there much difference between patriotism and nationalism, anyway?

 

[nudger1964]

Patriotism is a very noble expression of one of humanities most vicious and malignant instincts. The instinct to separate the world into us and them, that instinct that keeps our species tied to our animal past and firmly entrenched in our own mediocrity.

yes this pretty much sums it up for me...very well put.
the interesting question for me is why do so many of us lack this tribal loyalty?

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

I've always used Patriotism in terms of fighting for the values and freedoms that a country has, whereas Nationalism is simply cutting yourself a division from the rest of the planet.

I consider myself a patriot - yet I actively and openly criticize my own country. Why? Because my country allows me to. Especially after I realized what was actually going on.
Nationalists would consider it un-American for me to do so because this is AMERICA and you can take that griping SOMEWHERE ELSE ya COMMUNIST HIPPIE.
"... I'm a member of the Military. I fought in Afghanistan. What have you done, again?"
"I watch FOX NEWS and MARCHED AGAINST THE SOCIALIST OBAMACARE."
"... So, you can criticize America, but when I criticize America, I'm an un-American Communist Hippie?"

The difference is that Nationalism changes hands betwix whatever party is in office and who's supporting them. Patriotism is a little more deep, and people on both sides can be patriots without being Nationalists, necessarilly.

 

[Andiferous]

I've always used Patriotism in terms of fighting for the values and freedoms that a country has, whereas Nationalism is simply cutting yourself a division from the rest of the planet.

I consider myself a patriot - yet I actively and openly criticize my own country. Why? Because my country allows me to. Especially after I realized what was actually going on.
Nationalists would consider it un-American for me to do so because this is AMERICA and you can take that griping SOMEWHERE ELSE ya COMMUNIST HIPPIE.
"... I'm a member of the Military. I fought in Afghanistan. What have you done, again?"
"I watch FOX NEWS and MARCHED AGAINST THE SOCIALIST OBAMACARE."
"... So, you can criticize America, but when I criticize America, I'm an un-American Communist Hippie?"

The difference is that Nationalism changes hands betwix whatever party is in office and who's supporting them. Patriotism is a little more deep, and people on both sides can be patriots without being Nationalists, necessarilly.

So does being a patriot over there mean that you won't ever respect us over here or regard us as less worthy of humanist principle? If its point is not to divide people between nations and cultures, and if patriots really do think all people are equal and deserve equal rights and privileges, what exactly separates people within the patriot nation from others and thus fuels this national pride?

Even supposing a person believes patriotism is acceptable because their people are more worthy of respect and consideration than other people beyond national boundaries, be it for something like, excellent human rights legislation; then how proud can that person really be knowing that those principles held dear (freedom, equality, human rights) are specifically excluded from everyone outside of national borders because for whatever reason, citizens of that nation are more deserving than any others in the global community, by respect of the pride and superiority they feel for their own country (ergo patriotism)? Are human rights with the US constitution, for instance, applicable to anyone outside the US? Granted, enforcing these principles would be an imposible task and might be contradictory in itself; but my point is that celebrating (in example) equality and freedom within ones' own borders tends to a certain hypocrisy when looking outside those borders and thinking less of those outside.

I think that pride in principles such as equality are admirable, but if this consideration becomes arrogance and stops at ones' own borders, the principle is not really equality. If those principles of humanity and equality make a person proud of their country, then that which makes them proud to belong to a privileged group defeats the principles themselves , and patriotism based on such ideals is nothing but empty and illusory. As an example.

 

[Andiferous]

I'm sorry Hytegia. I've thought this over, and I really feel like an insensitive arse for posting something like that to you right now. I do hope you remember that your own safety and security is paramount no matter anyone's idealised convictions or principles - because while they sound very nice, I've really got a lofty perspective on reality. I can't believe my own insensitivity.

(And truly I wish for your health and safety from all the way over here, too. )

And happy post American thanksgiving.

I'm very sorry.

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

It's alright.
Name me a single time post-WWII America has tried to extend the human rights of repressed countries and it was welcomed with open arms and cuddly kittens here and abroad, and you will see the problem with your own argument.

Countries are only as free as the people who live in it allow it to be - unless you're implying that Iraq loves the American presence there, though we freed them from a dictator, handed them open elections, and are now leaving. There were no problems in Iraq. None. Everyone loves us there.
*sarcasm button here*

 

[Andiferous]

Yes, I suppose reality tends to muddy even the best laid plans. I haven't quite figured out how to fix people and that troublesome reality part in my lofty conjecture. I find, and I hear, that those things tend to mess everything up in the end.

Anyway, in your position, I think your voice on the issue probably deserves a lot more credit than mine.

Anyway, stay safe.

 

[Woodsey]

I think Nationalism and Patriotism fit in todays world, humans just aren't that advanced at all yet. It will eventually disappear, either that or our self annihilation, whichever first. You guys are light years ahead of the average human thinker. I like the idea of humanism, very idealistic and cosy and very 500+ years away. America are not protecting their nations interests, they're trying to protect the worlds interests, the human races interest but bringing it to compliance under their democracy. We're in the messy bit right now and it's not pretty, one day they'll kill every single B*****d they don't like, all the ones they btand as dictators and facists and anything else they'll tell you why they're wrong and you shouldn't like them. Unfortunately, until the US and Allies are finished cleansing the world of these "evil men", we have to watch the bloodshed. And then, well, there's your new world order and no need for nationalism or patriotism as we'll all be one global economy - high fiving each other and shooting woo hoo!

 

[CosmicJoghurt]

I find nationalism and patriotism to be quite ridiculous. Just because you happened to be born in the US and not in Saudi Arabia, doesn't mean it's somehow better than other countries. Sure, you may want to defend it if your life and well-being depend on it, but being proud of being American is, for me, utterly ridiculous. You've done nothing to be born in the US, and being born in the US isn't something to brag about.

It's like saying... 'Yea, I'm praawd of having brown hair. Brown haired people are the bloody best race!"

You are mistaken in what it means to be a patriot, sir. I am a patriot of the United States, not because I was born here, but because I adhere to the ideals of the American Revolution. There are other revolutions with which I find a community of interest, but this revolution is my revolution. It is, to my mind, the best revolution, and the one which best deserves my defense.

And this is not a regional distinction; I should like to think that I could think so were I born anywhere, though I know it is likely that I might not.



Now if I were a Romanian, I probably would think that Patriotism is ridiculous. As, near as I can tell, Patriotism in most of Eastern Europe seems to be based on Ethnic lines and adherence to the local Orthodox Church. But Patriotism doesn't have to be like that.

I fail to see how that's patriotism. Seems like just adherence to a set of ideals.

Imagine the same ideals being adhered to and applied in a revolution in Libya. Would you be a Libyan patriot? No, you'd be someone who happens to believe in the revolution's set of ideals.

I'm pretty sure what you feel is nationalism, not patriotism. Excuse me if not. Don't bomb Europe.



Kidding

 

[Anachronous Rex]

I fail to see how that's patriotism. Seems like just adherence to a set of ideals.

Imagine the same ideals being adhered to and applied in a revolution in Libya. Would you be a Libyan patriot? No, you'd be someone who happens to believe in the revolution's set of ideals.

I'm pretty sure what you feel is nationalism, not patriotism. Excuse me if not. Don't bomb Europe.



Kidding

Well adherence to a set of ideals is what it means to be a patriot of the United States. It wouldn't be my first choice of words either, but that is what people living here take it to mean. If you don't agree with their definition that's fine, just realize that we are no longer talking about the same thing when we say "patriotism."

Nationalism meanwhile I take to be more of a "my country may it always be right, but right or wrong my country" style of thinking.

 

[Nelipot]

I've never understood why the most fervid nationalists and patriots are always expected to be so in other people's countries.

 

[The Felonius Pope]

In my eyes nationalism is a product of our lower animal desire to protect our own (whether they be our own tribe, state,

country, etc.). Einstein was quoted as saying, "Nationalism is the measles of mankind." Quite personally I feel we are a

wretched species when it comes to war and conflict, no better in fact than any other creatures. Whether or not I agree with

the ethics of nationalism, patriotism, and the wars that result from these 'philosophies' is one thing; The necessity of such

things is a different matter entirely. While I am a bit of a nihilist, believing that 'necessity' is largely a construction of the

mind, I do recognize instances where nationalism has benefited us. Take for example, the Soviet intervention in World

War II. I won't go into detail on the ethics of the Nazis versus those of the Soviets, but most history books I have read have

agreed that it was a blend of Soviet patriotism and the Russian Orthodox faith that eventually led the Soviets west to

liberate the concentration camps and topple the Nazi regime.