Nationalism and patriotism

[Leçi]

What's your opinion about nationalists and patriots?
It seems in the western world it's primarily the US that upholds the idea that people who fight in wars are defending the rights and freedoms of the country. They are seen as heroes amongst alot of the common people while it has nothing to do with defending the US, they haven't been in serious danger for more than a 100 years, the wars they are fighting hasn othing to do with defending freedom or rights of the american people. It's the same thing with other countries like China, Turkey, etc. My gf is turkish and she seems to love turkey just because it's where she lives while there are so many problems there. For example: the kurds want a state of their own but ofcourse turkey doesn't want to give a part of their land to them, I can understand they don't want to give in to the PKK, they are terrorists but when you have a group that's based on the wrongdoings of said country attacking them will only make it worse, unless you completely obliterate them. Diplomacy would solve so many things but I guess neither sides want to be the bigger man.

It's something I don't understand, can someone explain?

 

[ArthurWilborn]

Oxytocin.

"The love and trust it promotes are not toward the world in general, just toward a person's in-group. Oxytocin turns out to be the hormone of the clan, not of universal brotherhood. Psychologists trying to specify its role have now concluded it is the agent of ethnocentrism. "
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/11/science/11hormone.html

 

[australopithecus]

Both are pointless. In my opinion of course.

 

[ArthurWilborn]

Both are pointless. In my opinion of course.

Eh, they're like any virtue. Good in moderation, but bad in excess.

 

[Prolescum]

In my view, the former is useless, the latter is puerile.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I'm sort of conflicted on these. Sounds good on paper, I guess. And my one tiny voice in the sea of humanity only has any political meaning where I'm allowed to vote, so that's where my focus lies. But pride over an accident of geography? Allegiance to anything beyond my own personal values and the well-being of people? No thanks, my brain doesn't really work that way.

 

[televator]

Patriotism is a negligible value next to humanism. Plus, it's a value that very easily turns into a self serving display of self importance. Take the US. People trip all over themselves to admit how much unconditional love they have for 'murika just to gain some sort of self indulgent satisfaction.

Patriotism is quite misguided by fervor. If only people cared more about something like humanism, I think we'd be better off.

 

[Dean]

As far as I'm concerned, the idea of maintaining some form of allegiance to a piece of land, simply because it is where you were born, is pretty puerile. You didn't choose where you were born, and it didn't choose you. And anyway, the whole concept of taking "pride" in a place, or pride in one's self, almost by definition requires that you had some choice in the matter, in order to be proud of it. Since you have no choice over your date and place of birth, and the country you were born in; both Patriotism and Nationalism seem at best childish and jejune to me. So that more or less sums it up. :|

 

[australopithecus]

As far as I'm concerned, the idea of maintaining some form of allegiance to a piece of land, simply because it is where you were born, is pretty puerile. You didn't choose where you were born, and it didn't choose you. And anyway, the whole concept of taking "pride" in a place, or pride in one's self, almost by definition requires that you had some choice in the matter, in order to be proud of it. Since you have no choice over your date and place of birth, and the country you were born in; both Patriotism and Nationalism seem at best childish and jejune to me. So that more or less sums it up. :|

This, word for word.

 

[Laurens]

Both play into the 'us versus them', or the 'in group versus out group' mentality - which I feel is the bane of our species, and the cause of a lot of our problems.

 

[Prolescum]

Both play into the 'us versus them', or the 'in group versus out group' mentality - which I feel is the bane of our species, and the cause of a lot of our problems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other

 

[CommonEnlightenment]

Both play into the 'us versus them', or the 'in group versus out group' mentality - which I feel is the bane of our species, and the cause of a lot of our problems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other

It is also my opinion that this is the same issue that we see with religious conflicts. I view religion as an extension of a particular people's culture and those cultural differences setup the problem that Laurens describes above.



I think that one of the best solutions to this particular problem is to educate individuals in the ways of secular humanism. We can still hold our differences but underneath it all, we are of the same species (however you wish to define it).

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

I value patriotism, simply because I have this gut feeling that there's SOME GOOD that's worth fighting for - even if it's politically reprehensable and society sees the action as unsound, I go where I'm told and I only do the best I can where I'm at.
Nobody is trained to be a Patriot - it's the fact that Patriotism is a driving force for the people who really have no other choice than to be placed in a situation being shot at and taking apart ordinance at 0300 in the middle of a desert.

And, as recent polls show (found on CNN), those cries and lines are not mainly in support of the war more than it is the troops.

Love the troops, hate the war, I'd say.

I have no problem dying for my country's wellbeing. But I do have a problem in the thought of dying for a political fiasco that we have going on right now. >.>

 

[Andiferous]

Very early on I developed a very distinct and petulant anti-nationalism to the point where I find it difficult to remember my own national anthem because I've created so many parodies of it.

Hytengia, I've got to be honest with you. We get American satellite channels. We tend to make fun of you and ourselves a lot more by inverse proportion of American nationalist voice on a global scale (we do get your satellite, you know).

We tend to find the most pride by trying to exert the least, so get yer head around that one.

We're used to conscription and guilt tactics getting us to join wars around here, so I can only guess that those who sacrifice their lives in the Canadian army these days are only trying to improve upon an undeserved negative opinion of our citizens, likely not earned by ourselves (as we are generally not newsworthy).

And yes, I get confused for American abroad, too.

 

[varit]

Nationalists and Patriots aren't necessarily only supporting their own, they can be more tolerant and understanding of other peoples' nationalism and patriotism.. including the rights of others to defend themselves, and the existence of other nationalists.

There are some positive reasons for some amount of pride in it. Other peoples would like to spread their values and culture to other places, and if you are not proud of your values and culture, then you or future generations could lose it, not know it. So if it's worth preserving, it's worth having pride in it.

Also if a country or people is hated, or deligitimized, then to fight it it helps not just to give it back to them and to defend that people/country's morality..if worthy.. and that people could do with an extra dose of pride particularly if others are putting them down unjustly. Without it they might feel bad about themselves.

 

[Anachronous Rex]

It may be slightly of topic, but Patriotism is at least somewhat noble under certain circumstances. Take the United States as an example: While most self-described patriots in this country are intolerable, beer guzzling, nascar aficionados, to be a patriot of the United States really only requires some level of adherence to the values of the American Revolution. Similarly with countries such as France, or even Algeria and Vietnam. This, I think, is more noble then patriotism based simply on Ethnic or Religious devision.

As for the Turks, I tend to think (and this is born out by recent Turkish History) that the Turks - having been (sometimes rather unfairly) forced to concede nearly the whole of their Empire - view those territories that are still under their control as being theirs by right. They say, "Okay, we gave up all of that, but this at least is ours," and then you tell them, "oh and by the way we'd like for you to part with that little bit out East, and maybe Cyprus while you're at it..." and they freak out. They feel like their being whittled away.

 

[CosmicJoghurt]

I find nationalism and patriotism to be quite ridiculous. Just because you happened to be born in the US and not in Saudi Arabia, doesn't mean it's somehow better than other countries. Sure, you may want to defend it if your life and well-being depend on it, but being proud of being American is, for me, utterly ridiculous. You've done nothing to be born in the US, and being born in the US isn't something to brag about.

It's like saying... 'Yea, I'm praawd of having brown hair. Brown haired people are the bloody best race!"

 

[Anachronous Rex]

I find nationalism and patriotism to be quite ridiculous. Just because you happened to be born in the US and not in Saudi Arabia, doesn't mean it's somehow better than other countries. Sure, you may want to defend it if your life and well-being depend on it, but being proud of being American is, for me, utterly ridiculous. You've done nothing to be born in the US, and being born in the US isn't something to brag about.

It's like saying... 'Yea, I'm praawd of having brown hair. Brown haired people are the bloody best race!"

You are mistaken in what it means to be a patriot, sir. I am a patriot of the United States, not because I was born here, but because I adhere to the ideals of the American Revolution. There are other revolutions with which I find a community of interest, but this revolution is my revolution. It is, to my mind, the best revolution, and the one which best deserves my defense.

And this is not a regional distinction; I should like to think that I could think so were I born anywhere, though I know it is likely that I might not.



Now if I were a Romanian, I probably would think that Patriotism is ridiculous. As, near as I can tell, Patriotism in most of Eastern Europe seems to be based on Ethnic lines and adherence to the local Orthodox Church. But Patriotism doesn't have to be like that.

 

[Unwardil]

Patriotism is a very noble expression of one of humanities most vicious and malignant instincts. The instinct to separate the world into us and them, that instinct that keeps our species tied to our animal past and firmly entrenched in our own mediocrity. We invented art and music and literature, we explored every nook and cranny of this little dirt ball of a planet and we even flew to the fucking moon. We're better than that people.

 

[devilsadvocate]

Patriotism is a very noble expression of one of humanities most vicious and malignant instincts. The instinct to separate the world into us and them, that instinct that keeps our species tied to our animal past and firmly entrenched in our own mediocrity.

Awesomely quotable bit of insight.